This is topic Maintaining & Cleaning Pepsi Soda Fountain in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-09-2003, 12:40 PM:
 
I have never been happy with the way Pepsi tastes down here.

Some time back we switched to using purified water delivered weekly from the bottled water company and that hasn't really made the difference we hoped for.

The theatre owner told me that he just got a refractometer so we can adjust our mix ratio and I think that's really where the problem is. I suspect that the guys at Pepsi here don't know what the ratio is supposed to be. I brought back a can of Pepsi from Florida and did an A/B taste test to prove that I wasn't imagining things. There is a vast difference in flavor.

What is the ratio in the U.S.? Because that is the flavor I'm trying to duplicate.

While we are at it -- I would be interested in hearing about the best ways to clean the lines. That could be part of the problem here (dirty/clogged syrup lines). What solutions do you use and how many parts of this and that.

Please tell me everything you can because this is driving me crazy down here. I just know we could sell more Pepsi if we could get it to taste good.
 

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Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 09-09-2003, 02:31 PM:
 
I have Coke but it should work the same way. I have a bag-in-the-box system with fast flow valves. You need to get a seperator/tester kit. I believe the kit costs about $14.00 and is available from most distributors. Maybe your supplier may even give you one for free.

The first thing that you do is take off the screw ring and attach the seperator to the spiggott. The seperator will divide the flow into water and syrup. Inside the dispenser head there are two screws - one is for water and one is for syrup. Then you need to turn off the syrup and measure the water output so that it hits the designated line on the water side of the test recepticle within 4 seconds. Then you turn on the syrup. The syrup goes into the syrup side of the test recepticle and the water also goes into the water side. You are to keep turning the syrup up until it comes out in equal portions to the water for the test. It usually takes several tries until you get it.

One other thing that really effects the taste of BIB soda is the carbination. The dispenser must be cold enough. If it is not cold enough the carbonation disapates too quickly and the soda will taste flat. If yours is an electric coutner dispenser with the compressor built in then it must run at least five hours before dispensing to allow an ice pack to form in the machine. If yours is a drop-in with the ice bin used for cooling the lines the same thing applies - the ice must be put in the bin for a sufficent time to cool the thing way down before you dispense the soda. Otherwise the soda will not hold the carbination.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-09-2003, 02:42 PM:
 
The last paragraph above is really the big key. The ice bins should never be allowed to get lower than 1/3 at worst, my general rule is 1/2 full. Personally I find only the counter electrics truly put out a good tasting product.

As far as the mix goes in Pepsi, I forget what it is, but I know it is printed on the BIB.
 

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Posted by Robert Golding (Member # 746) on 09-09-2003, 05:54 PM:
 
The mix ratio's for pepsi is: 5 to 1 for regular and 5 1/2 to 1 for diet. You must always keep ice on the cold plate or it will brick wrong. If the product has sugar it's alway 5 to 1, all diet flavors are 5 1/2 to 1. It's important to have cubed ice for these mix ratio's to work. If you are using crushed ice increase mix by 1/2. reg pepsi would be 5 1/2 to 1 and diet 6 to 1
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-10-2003, 12:15 AM:
 
The tool I have here is a hand refractometer and the way it works is you place a few drops of whatever solution onto a prism and then you get a Brix Percentage when you look at a scale through the viewfinder.

Distilled water at 20ºC will read 0% and there's a small screwdriver to calibrate, if needed. I see this as a probelm because the drink will be coming out at a colder temperature than that. Isn't 20ºC something like room temperature?

I have to wonder if this is the right tool for the job. The training video I remember seeing showed the little gadget that connects to the nozzle and collects the syrup and water separately, as described earlier in this thread.

Could this refractometer actually be a cool, high-tech approach? Or is it a hunk o' junk?

And what about cleaning out these syrup lines? Any suggestions on cleaning agents and methods?

[ 09-10-2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Manny Knowles ]
 

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Posted by R. Andrew Diercks (Member # 1725) on 09-10-2003, 12:18 AM:
 
Strangely enough, they do not mix fountain and can to taste the same, or so a friend that is a Pepsi tech informed me. They want a "fountain taste". Canned Coke also tastes much different than fountain or bottled. The mix tester is the only way to check, not taste test of products.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-10-2003, 12:34 AM:
 
I believe you...and I think that's just plain dumb. Why the HECK should fountain soda have to taste different than canned (or bottled) soda? On second thought, don't answer that; I really don't want to get distracted by discussing whatever rationale there might be for this.

Trust me when I tell you there is something very wrong with the Pepsi down here and it's not an imagined problem. I only hope it's not a problem with the way Pepsi makes the syrup because then it would be totally beyond my control. I just want this Pepsi to taste like the real Pepsi...even if I have to settle for "Fountain Pepsi."

Fountain Dew, anyone?

By the way, I found a link that has photos and descriptions of the refractometer...

Atago Hand Refractometers

The model I have is N-1EBx and the range is suitable for taking soft drink measurements.

[ 09-10-2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Manny Knowles ]
 

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Posted by Ron Keillor (Member # 1790) on 09-10-2003, 01:14 AM:
 
Do you have Root Beer (or Sarsasparilla) on line in the system? That flavour is notorious for spreading and the only solution is the regular replacement of all tubing.
If the tubing gets warm, another contamination could be mould, and rinsing with a light bleach solution, then clear water would help.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-10-2003, 10:41 AM:
 
No root beer here...sadly.

A light bleach solution is...how much bleach, how much water?

Okay that's one suggestion -- any others?
 

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Posted by Zach Zagar (Member # 379) on 09-10-2003, 12:50 PM:
 
Before you get the bleach out and risk killing anyone, you can try just rinsing it with warm water first. Just get a clean bucket or pitcher or something, put the connector that goes to the bag in box, and go out to the fountain and hold down the syrup lever (inside the head of each flavor, usually). Let it run clear, hot water for a bit. That should get most syrup out (which I'm guessing in most cases is what would be in the line before anything else).
 

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Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 09-10-2003, 01:49 PM:
 
Our pepsi guy uses the refractometer to adjust the brix so I think you have the right tool, with Coke they gave us the brixing cup. Any chance calling Pepsi and asking them what they suggest?
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 09-10-2003, 04:56 PM:
 
Manny, you may have two problems.

Correct me on this, but isn't the refractometer reading based on sugar content? That wouldn't be consistent between flavors, and wouldn't be valid at all for diet drinks, most (if not all) of which use artificial sweeteners. The separator method, I'd think, would be the best way to go. As Bob says, most drinks are brixed at 5 parts water to one part syrup, and a split brix cup is calibrated for this purpose. The 5 (or 6) to one ratio used to be printed on the syrup boxes. I haven't checked in a long time though, so that may no longer be the case.

The brix specifications are for service over cubed ice. If you're serving a drink with no ice, a little less syrup would be appropriate. Shaved or flaked ice might take a little more.

One big problem I see from your post is your drink temperature. By dispensing a drink at room temperature, you're losing a lot of carbonation. Pouring that drink into a glass of ice would be watering a relatively flat drink down, compounding the problem. Even adding syrup wouldn't help... you'd just have a properly mixed drink without the carbonation you're looking for.

The Coke specs I've seen literally insist that the water/syrup mix at the FOUNTAIN HEAD should be no higher than 42 degrees Farenheit. 36 degrees is close to the ideals the service people try for up here. If you pour a drink into an empty cup & the temperature is above 42, brixing won't fix the problem.

If your machine isn't refrigerated (which it sounds like it's not), you should have a cooling plate at the bottom of your ice machine or bin. All of your syrup lines should be going through it... even your water, though that doesn't usually happen. The lines from the cooling plate to the fountain head should be insulated. The syrup needs to be fed through the system at a consistent temperature, because temperature affects syrup viscosity, which determines the stability of your brixing adjustments (and therefore, your syrup/water ratio).

Syrup lines can become contaminated over time, but especially if you've ever changed flavors. Going from a strong flavor like Coke or Root Beer to something relatively light, like Sprite or 7-Up is tough without replacing the syrup lines. When we close our drive-in for the season, we flush out our lines with a water/sanitizer solution that's made for the beer tap lines in bars. That seems to have eliminated any tainting of flavors that might be caused by the syrup lines.

In any case, some lines just get old & funky. Coke and Pepsi are usually pretty good about replacing them, usually for nothing. Clean lines mean good drinks and more sales. It's in their best interests to help you out there.

Get that water temperature down though. You'll notice a big difference, once you do.

Also, check the CO2 pressure to your carbonator. It should be between 90 & 100 psi. I've seen installations as high as 110 psi, which turn out dandy drinks, but foamy root beer.

Risking a comparison flame here, I'd recommend you use poly-coated cups (or plastic or glass). A second choice would be waxed (if your customers won't be hanging on to them long enough for them to get soggy). Styrofoam cups will hold temperature longer & the lids tend to be tighter, but something about the styro (porous surface?) releases a lot of CO2. Your drinks will be foamy, increasing dispensing time & lowering carbonation.

Finally, be careful how close you expect a fountain drink to compare with one from a can or bottle. Carbonation levels are MUCH higher, coming from plant-bottled beverages. You'll come close with a properly set-up fountain system, but you probably won't ever quite reach the "bite" that you'll get from a very cold can of soda.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-10-2003, 05:44 PM:
 
Jack -- Thanks so much for your detailed response. I will have to check the temperature; I really don't have any data on that at this time. What I was saying is that the refractometer anticipates a sample that is at room temperature which, as you pointed out, is across purposes.

So does this mean I need to add a little thermometer to my gadget bag?

I had the ops manager phone the contact at Pepsi and someone will be delivering a brix cup to my office today or tomorrow. It may be there now but I wouldn't know. I'll be away until the middle of next week.

In all honesty, the bleach idea made me a little nervous, too. I will try the hot water idea and possibly change the lines.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 09-10-2003, 06:05 PM:
 

quote:

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So does this mean I need to add a little thermometer to my gadget bag?

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I sure would, Manny. Digital "stick" thermometers are available from most foodservice wholesalers. Analog thermometers have always been available at the county health departments I've dealt with... they may have digitals by now.

Most of the stick thermometers you'd use to check your refrigeration equipment & food serving temperatures should be within range to work for your soft drinks.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 09-10-2003, 08:14 PM:
 
Is there any chance some of the taste issue is corn syrup vs. sugar ?
--jhawk
 

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Posted by John Hegel (Member # 628) on 09-11-2003, 12:37 AM:
 
Does anyone else wash, rinse, and sanitize the nozzles every night?
 

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Posted by Zach Zagar (Member # 379) on 09-11-2003, 10:04 AM:
 
We soak ours' over night in bubbly carbon water and toothbrush them out in the morning.

The Pepsi brixing kit, at least the ones I've seen, come with the following:
Manual, How-To-Video, brush, thermomometer, screwdriver, brixing cup, two nozzles and I believe thats it. It is a really nice blue case, and is a great help with the towers.

If all you get is a cup... then that's generic... you want the kit, with all the goodies.

Zach
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-11-2003, 04:22 PM:
 
Thanks for the insight, Zach. I'll see if I can score a full kit at ShowEast.

But, come to think of it, I know for sure that Coke had a large presence at ShowEast last year but I don't recall seeing Pepsi...Does anyone know?
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-11-2003, 07:16 PM:
 
Out of curiosity Manny... where are your BIBs (or more specifically the syrup in them) manufactured?

I know that the bottled and post-mix Pepsi in most of the Caribbean islands tastes flat and nothing at all like American or Canadian bottled or post-mix product.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-11-2003, 11:56 PM:
 
Not 100% sure Daryl but I think the syrup might be mixed in The Bahamas. I know for a fact that there's a Coca-Cola bottling plant there and you're right about all the soda tasting flat. I'm in Fort Lauderdale right now and I'm thinking of picking up a BIB of Pepsi and bringing it back with me for a quick-and-dirty taste test. My brother told me from the start that he suspected the syrup but my aim is to at least make it taste better than it currently does. That's the least I'd like to accomplish. If I can prove that something is wrong with the syrup then maybe we can get that changed but it's probably a longshot.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-14-2003, 11:10 PM:
 
Two things:

1. Got an email from my brother today saying that my brix cup was delivered. Can't wait to get my little hands on it.

2. Ordered a glass of fountain Pepsi here in Fort Lauderdale and guess what? It tastes the same as it does back home.

What the fuck do I do now? Seems to be out of my hands. I can't recall why but I asked some time ago and was told flat-out that Coke wouldn't be an option. Hmmm. Maybe it's time to ask again.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 09-15-2003, 04:54 AM:
 
Manny, try a small glass full of Pepsi syrup... then one of Coke. You'll probably find that they're both pretty flat!

I still think you have a localized problem over there. You can carbonate just about anything, if you really wanted to. The syrup has very little to do with it, though too rich a mix might take away some of the "bite".

Anyhow, you picked a lousy place to do a taste-test. Everybody knows that Washingtonians know the most about fountain drinks, and Floridians know the least. Come up here next time!
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-15-2003, 08:34 AM:
 
Okay, Jack...Let's see if I can get a "research grant."
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-17-2003, 04:08 PM:
 
Okay, I've gone and done some fact-finding...

Depending on which dispenser is being measured, water temperature (carbonated water only) is at or below 40ºF.

Ratio was a little light on syrup but not by a whole lot. I was able to tweak it and get it right on the money.

You can see that there is ample carbonation in the beverage.

Brix on the refractometer is 10% -- but that's without adjusting to compensate for the fact that the beverage was refrigerated. Before tweaking the mix, it was something like 9.5%. (Does anyone here know if that's considered a "big" difference?)

So...at least I know that it's not one of those factors. At least, not anymore.

I know now that part of the problem was my initial expectation. I was expecting a flavor similarity between Pepsi and Coca-Cola which -- based on quite a bit of taste-testing in Florida -- is not something one ought to expect. Pepsi and Coke taste very different from one another.

But that's not to say that the problem was completely imagined... I was able to detect a faint "odor" to the water from one of these towers here today. It's not coming through the syrup line, mind you. It's the water. And it's not the water supply because it doesn't affect both towers. This suggests that the water supply line to the affected tower needs attention. I'll be giving Pepsi a call in the morning to arrange an inspection of the tubing for the water and we'll get it cleaned or replaced, if needed.

Thanks to all who helped. The other tower is working great now that it's been tweaked. I saved a cup before the tweaking and let my brother do a quick-and-dirty tasting and he was happier with the "after" mix. FWIW, so was I.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 09-17-2003, 08:15 PM:
 
Sounds like you've covered a lot of it, Manny.
That water issue sure could be a problem. I've tasted fountain Coke in cities that chlorinate the crap out of their water... yuck!

Did you check the CO2 pressure?
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-17-2003, 09:56 PM:
 
Yeah the CO2 was practically new and the pressure was being regulated at 80 -- would that be PSI or something else?
 

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Posted by Dennis Udovich (Member # 1066) on 09-18-2003, 12:14 AM:
 
I personally prefer to drink Coke. But I have and prefer Pepsi at my cinema. Why? Pepsi gives me the best service. Never got that from Coke in the past.

We have four separate soda towers with six or eight flavors. Each has its own lines and carbonaters. We have bulk CO2. We wash, rinse, and sanitize the nozzles every night.

Now I must admit we had a "funny" taste problem for over a year. It would come and go. I felt our Pepsi was always flat tasting. Pepsi service would come over anytime I called and tried everything to correct the problem. We switch different carbonaters, washed out the lines, changed feed lines, added water filters, even replaced a complete soda unit. It seemed good for a while, then it would come back.

A few weeks ago it was back again, worst than ever! I made an appointment for Pepsi, my filter suppliers, and my plumber to meet at the same time to figure out the taste problem. The filter guy brought a water test kit. The four of us looked over all equipment and discussed the on-going problem.

Well, guess what? My plumber noticed bad back-flow valves on the carbonaters. They were leaking and corroded. He said this could be the problem and suggested replacing them. The next day the plumber made the changes and Pepsi has never tasted so good. It now has zing and fizz! Hopefully the taste problem won't come back. Being a Coke drinker, I must admit Pepsi sure tastes good here.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 09-18-2003, 12:47 AM:
 

quote:

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...the CO2 was practically new and the pressure was being regulated at 80 -- would that be PSI or something else?

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