Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: I Enjoy Reading The Manuals (And I'm looking for more)...

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Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 01-06-2004, 10:51 AM:

Hey Everyone!

I really enjoy the manual section! Its a really good resource and I love searching through all of them. I learned mostly everything I know from the manuals (and the forum of course)...

But I'm looking for a couple manuals that haven't been posted (that I can find). One is the CineQ line of products. If anyone has this can you please send a copy in to Brad? The Globe had these automations and maybe (besides reading out of self interest), I could provide a copy to them so they can do some troubleshooting.

Another one I'm looking for is the Kinotin line of platters, such as the ST-400-E (4-deck) the ST-200-E (3-deck) and the ST-270-E (35/70mm 3-deck).

Cretors' Diplomat poppers would be some good reading too.

And lastly, to complete my collection for now... Omniterm and RDS till manuals.

I'd love to call these companies, however, I don't think they'd send out a spare manual just to someone who asks and hasn't bought their product. Also, CineQ is gone, and so is its former owner Globalmic. They were eaten up by Comtek Datasystems (whose website I can't find!) and RDS was bought out by HDS or something.

If anyone can help me, please let me know or send copies into Brad.

Thank-you, I aprreciate it.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 01-06-2004, 11:49 AM:

Kinoton has not given Brad permission to post their manuals. Brad is in contact with them and working on permission. Stay Tuned. However if you have a Kinoton platter in your facility, you can always contact Kinoton for a replacement manual.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-06-2004, 11:57 AM:

We have a fairly recent (1999, I think) Cretors Diplomat popcorn machine, but since the manuals section only covers booth equipment I never considered submitting the manual...but I will, if Brad wants to post it.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-06-2004, 03:41 PM:

Any manual that is related to operating a theater is welcome. Poppers, weenie grills, even a manual for ticketing software is fine. It's amazing how many people can't find where they placed a manual to a piece of equipment on a Friday night and could REALLY use a quick download to get them back up and running.

Sorry about the Kinoton manuals, Andrew. We've been after them for about 2 years now and I'm still not sure what they are thinking over there in Germany. For some weird reason they don't want anyone having access to them. They seem to make really great quality equipment, but it makes me question what they are hiding from future prospective customers. It's bizarre. They are the only company that does not permit their manuals online.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-06-2004, 11:43 PM:

I tried to convince them to allow the manuals to be published, but failed. I think the main reason for this is that in Germany, technical professions are seen more like a craft, less from a "home improvement" point of view (everybody with a screwdriver is a technician). That means information is for customers and authorized (=hopefully qualified) dealers only. Once they get to know someone and consider him qualified, they are very open to questions and suggestions. Another reason is that a lot of the machines are custom-built, they will usually incorporate the detail changes the customer asks for. So it is a bit difficult to cover all detail aspects in the manuals. They are actually rather general, again probably because from their point of view a qualified technician will understand what he sees or measures anyway. Until a few years ago, they had no manuals in the classic sense (meaning with pictures and step-by-step instructions etc.) at all, they were more like a collection of technical drawings and diagrams. I can of course not speak for the company, but I guess it might also play a role that in some US installations (one of these not too far away from where I am, a location which should have been a "reference installation"), they had a lot of problems with unqualified people playing with the equipment, thinking they could "fix" and "improve" stuff, but actually breaking things and creating a lot of trouble.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-07-2004, 08:03 AM:

Yes, the wiring diagrams were definitely lacking when I worked on that equipment 15 year' ago. Fortunately, their feeble attempts at obfuscating the information was no match for my superior hillbilly intellect, so it was easy to decipher the sparse material they released. I quickly became the company expert on Norelco platters.

[Roll Eyes]

Is it that they're threatening legal action, or you just don't have a manual available? I may still have some "normalized" drawings I made of the circuits. Contrary to what they would have you believe, it's really a simple circuit... just overblown (and over-rated).

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-07-2004, 01:59 PM:

Nah, nothing threatening like that Tim. They just requested we not make their manuals available. I think the Germans just have a different outlook on spreading knowledge vs. most of the rest of the world.

Posted by Kyle Watkins (Member # 986) on 01-07-2004, 03:11 PM:

Does this fall under copy right laws, or something eles. Putting other manurals up online. Also what can happen say if you did anyways. Im sure you have to take them down. Could this be a fine or jail time. Im just courious.
Kyle

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-07-2004, 03:30 PM:

Although some could interpret this as "fair use", especially if the manuals and publications are normally free or are out of print, it's always a good idea to ask and get the written permission of the copyright owner, as Brad did with the Kodak material. In most cases, as long as the source and copyright are acknowledged, permission is given.

I think jhawk got permission from the SMPTE to submit some older copyrighted SMPTE papers. But putting up copies of SMPTE Standards, which are an important revenue source for the not-for-profit SMPTE, would be a serious NO-NO.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 01-07-2004, 05:22 PM:

If a person were to photograph the Norelco/Kinoton equipment on their own and write up their own service instructions and schematics then Norelco/Kinoton couldn't do anything about it.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-08-2004, 08:46 AM:

Ken,

While you can write your own orignal manual on the equipment and certainly photograph it to your heart's content...you could not copy the schematic, it is copyrighted. You could not also merely transcribe the manuals either.

I wonder what Kinoton's stance is on the Norelco manuals for the FP-20 and such or discontinued items like the DP-75.

Steve

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 01-08-2004, 10:21 AM:

Steve:

I was thinking that a person could draw their own schematic like the reverse engineering people do. That way you wouldn't be using Kinoton's original drawing in any way.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-08-2004, 02:50 PM:

Steve, Kinoton's concern is of their current product line.