Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Head Counting machines. Needed to know more.

This is topic Head Counting machines. Needed to know more. in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Kamakshipalya Dhananjay (Member # 1391) on 03-05-2004, 05:53 AM:

Do you use or know about such devices that track the human traffic at the installed premises ?

What types are available in the market ?

Are some of these machines capable of identifying unique individuals in terms of employing face recognition principles or the like, say other Biometric criteria ?

Where they are available and deployed, is the system configurable to provide data on time spent by patrons within the premises at sub-locations ? Like inside a shopping mall, where the system tracks the entry of person A into the mall at 3.05 pm, will the system track the movement of person A around the mall until he leaves the mall ?

What about privacy issues that surround the use and implementation of such devices ?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-05-2004, 07:13 AM:

We have BIM units (BIM=Biometric Identification Machines) installed in all our theatres. They positively identify all persons coming to our theatres, and we can store all these data for evaluation. The machines also recognize each indidual`s phone number. Jerry Bruckheimer came through recently, so now we also have his phone number. The biometric and personal data are very practical when we set up gay marriages in our theatres.

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 03-05-2004, 07:18 AM:

Michael, is it true that BIM units (BIM=Biometric Identification Machines) are installed in all German newborns?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-05-2004, 07:27 AM:

No, BIMs are still fairly complex and large. They are usually camouflaged as arcade game machines.

Posted by Kamakshipalya Dhananjay (Member # 1391) on 03-05-2004, 08:41 AM:

Anybody uses products by this company ?

Electronic People counting and tracking

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 03-05-2004, 10:12 AM:

The way that traffic is counted ... is simply by the number of tickets printed.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-05-2004, 12:40 PM:

How can you be sure somebody didn't buy two tickets for themself (like on some airlines)?

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 03-05-2004, 06:02 PM:

Here's my idea for a theatre tracking system.

Install a survelence camera at the front of the theatre, abouve the screen, looking down. The camera is attactched to a computer that knows what the auditorium looks like when its empty & also knows where each seat is located in the "picture". The computer can then compare the two images and "count heads". It would also be useful for cracking down on misbehaving middle schoolars.

Posted by Kamakshipalya Dhananjay (Member # 1391) on 03-06-2004, 12:37 AM:

I am not seeking to know how traffic inside a movie theatre auditorium is tracked.It is much too simple, count the number of tickets sold across the counter or otherwise and you have it.

What I seek to know is, where a Multiplex is a part of a shopping mall and there comes the need to know :

1. What number of people visit the Shopping mall on any given day, at the desired time ?
Say, I need to know the number of people that visited Mall ABC for the month of January,2004. And I need to know the trend for the same - whether there was an increase from the same frame the year before and so on.

2. What percentage of the people that visit the shopping mall make it to the theaters and what percentage do not ?
Say, if the headcount reveals 25000 people visited the Mall in the first week of Jan,2004, then what percentage of them visited the movie theatres ? If say,10000 people did visit the theatres for that period, then the significance of the theatres within the mall may be properly guaged. And of the 15000 people that did not visit the theatres, how many provided business to other retailers within the shopping mall ?
If on the other hand, 25000 persons visit the shopping mall and only 4000 visit the theatre for the week, then the theatre operator will have more concrete basis to examine the need to increase his attendance unless he is justified to resign to such low turnout.
And, of the 25000 persons that visited the mall for the week, From Monday to Friday, there were 14000 people of which less than 20 % gave any business to any retailer in the shopping mall while of the 11000 that visit the mall on Saturday and Sunday, 56% of the same gave business to retailers within the mall, then, the retailers within the mall will have a basis to examine the reluctance of the patrons to spend between Monday and Friday and take reasonable steps to improve the situation.

The requirements stated above are by no means sophisticated and so, deserve to be served by advancements that are not much expensive either to install or operate.

Then, there is a definite requirement for more sophisticated operations to identify unique individuals and the possibilities in terms of improving the conditions at the mall are nearly endless. However, it is here that a certain commitment, on the part of the operators to not use the data they gather in any manner that intrudes into the privacy of their visitors, is absolutely required. Besides, I believe it would be required for them to state clearly the mode of information gathering that the operators have deployed at their premises and the scope of use to which the data so gathered is put is also clearly and unambiguously indicated.

So, anybody in this forum who is experienced in these processes please comment or share your views.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-06-2004, 08:54 AM:

Yeah, it sounds simple but you're really asking for a lot.

How do you know that some customer doesn't walk in the door and back out several times per day? How many times do you count that person? What if a person comes into the mall, walks into your theater then leaves? An hour later he brings two friends with him. One of the friends decides to go watch a movie with the original guy. The second friend decides that he doesn't want to watch a movie and leaves. How many people came to your theater? 2, 3 or 4 people?

How can you ask a machine to answer that question? It's hard enough for a human to answer. That begs the question that the machine actually works in the first place.

You may be thinking of video recognition systems like they used after the terrorist events in N.Y.C. They tried them at the Superbowl and in Times Square on New Year's Eve and in a couple of other places. They made big news headlines when they were installed but they were all removed with a whimper when EVERY SINGLE SYSTEM failed to positively identify even one single person.

Here's another example: On some highways in the US and Canada they have automatic speed detection systems. If a car goes too fast through the "trap" a camera takes a picture of the car's license plate and the owner of the car gets a citation in the mail. Well, if cars are too close together the wrong car gets its picture taken. The answer was to put "chevron" markings on the pavement and warn drivers to stay 3 > > > cheverons apart. That's just goofy. They causes such a commotion when they were installed. I don't even know if those systems are even still in operation.

So, what are you going to do in the mall? Paint chevrons on the tile floor and make people walk in straight lines? How do you decide when a person gets counted more than once? How do you seperate employees and customers? This is all dependant on the fact that some machine works reliably enough to count people and tell one person from another.

How about if you paid PEOPLE to stand at the door with "clickers" and clip boards to count all the customers? They'd make a lot less mistakes. They could determine whehter a person has come and gone many times a day. AND... it'd be a hell of a lot cheaper!

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-07-2004, 06:49 PM:

Years ago, the US Navy used turnstiles. The usher would stand there with a club to make sure nobody snuck under it. Of course, it was 10 cents, and you had to deposite your dime. If you didn't, you would also crush a body part if you tried to walk through it without the deposite. Ooooo...that hurts. [Big Grin]

Anyway, one day in 1967, we had a new usher and he didn't know I was the projectionist that night. After he threw a tizzy fit and threatened to put me on report for sneaking in, I asked him if he wanted to have a movie tonight. He said, sure...and I told him he better let me in, because I was the f****** projectionist.

I was then admitted without paying 10 cents. I outranked him, anyway. [Big Grin]

Ah, the "good old days" with the carbon arcs. [Wink]

Posted by Kamakshipalya Dhananjay (Member # 1391) on 03-08-2004, 08:21 AM:

I am extremely sorry I did not realise the futility of what I was seeking to know. I only read that article about products by that Dutch company in a magazine I received from International Council of Shopping Complexes and assumed that these things were already available in the market.

Over the last few days, to concurrently dig for more information while I expected other film-tech members to share their views and knowledge, I did some research on this topic of Biometrics, face recognition and other methods of identifying unique individuals. Sorting through published information by countless research institutes and Universities across the world, it saddens me to realise the science of 'face recognition' is nowhere even near infancy ! We may have to wait for years together or who knows, for even decades to witness an acceptable and a reliable 'face recognising' module. Till such a day comes, the reliability of 'people counting machines' too will continue to be suspect, I may say.

Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 03-08-2004, 12:08 PM:

And... what does all this add up to anyway?

fjn [Confused]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-08-2004, 03:10 PM:

Kamakshipalya,

I'm not sad to find out that such technology doesn't exist. I'm sad to find out that our government(s) spent millions and millions of dollars on such technology which NEVER worked in the first place!

Don't even get me started on missile defense systems!

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-08-2004, 03:16 PM:

You mean a missle defence system that wrecked an excellent aircraft company?

http://www.avroarrow.org/

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-08-2004, 09:18 PM:

That's certainly one!

I'm talking about the missile defence system that they showed so many times on TV shooting down missiles over Isreal when it turns out that all but one of them was dummied up. Even the one that did hit didn't "kill".

Posted by Kamakshipalya Dhananjay (Member # 1391) on 03-11-2004, 09:33 AM:

But then, why assume these expenditures are going down the drain. They may all add up to something. Say, 25 years later ! Almost all innovations and inventions take time to reach an adoptable phase. Dont they ? It took more than 35 years before the Wright Brothers' labour of 'passion' was acknowledged commercially.

Posted by Rob Butler (Member # 2274) on 03-23-2004, 02:02 PM:

I saw an auditorium somewhere that had little switches mounted on all the seats. When the seat is folded down, it releases the switch. All the switches were wired to lights on a seating diagram of the theater, this way you could see how many empty seats there were in the theater and exactly where they are. The springs in the seats were suposidly strong enough to keep the switches engaged even with a few jackets in the seat. I can't imagine that a system simallar to this would be all that hard to build, just a few hundred bucks, and a trip to radioshack.

Posted by Kamakshipalya Dhananjay (Member # 1391) on 03-24-2004, 08:42 AM:

Where is that theatre ? When was this ?