This is topic THE FINAL CUT at AMC in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Eric Hooper (Member # 1730) on 10-24-2004, 12:47 PM:
 
I went to my local AMC theatre yesterday to see THE FINAL CUT, "showing exclusively at AMC Theatres". They used their digital theatre network (or whatever it's called) to show the film. On a fully opened 2.40 scope screen, they projected the digital 1.33 image, and then the scope film within that image complete with keystoning! See below:




This is completely unacceptable. Is this the future of movies at the mega-plex? In my opinion, this is another nail in the coffin! I would recommed the movie, but I cannot recommend seeing it in a theatre. Wait for the DVD! I wonder who else at the theatre thought the same? I wonder who will never return to a movie theatre after seeing this?

I wonder how the producers of the movie and Robin Williams himself feels about the movie being disgraced like this? I wonder if they realize that this is why the movie isn't making money? If I were them, I'd be pissed.

AMC thinks this is the new way to do things? THEY MUST BE STOPPED!
 

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Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 10-24-2004, 02:58 PM:
 
Eric, when I went to see it, it was shown on a top masking screen with the masking set to flat. Keystoning was present on my image too but it did manage to fill most of the width.

Had the masking been down, you may not have been able to notice the grays outside the image area because the projector is still pushing light where it supposed to be black.

Trailers seemed to be presented in flat because they went below the masking.

Problem is they use these projectors for other content too such as showing concerts and such.

I agree that this was hard to watch. I have used my Cinema grade projector for a couple of similar things, projected in HD. Looks great, IMO.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-24-2004, 03:37 PM:
 
They probably didn't have the correct lensing to fill the height of the flat image (since almost every AMC theater uses top masking), so they set the masking to scope and went with that. Alternatively, it may have been a brightness issue. Smaller image = more light.

Regardless there is no excuse for that location not adjusting the keystone correction to take care of the "pyramid" image. I would presume this is an isolated incident and not all AMCs are set up like that.

Please edit your subject line so it is not a teaser title or we will do it for you. (You don't want us to select a title. )
 

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Posted by Eric Hooper (Member # 1730) on 10-25-2004, 12:55 PM:
 
This AMC (1000 Van Ness) has side masking in all auditoriums that I know of. They could have easily drawn the masking curtains in to at least not have blank screen showing. Unfortunately though, then it would look like a square TV set showing a DVD with the black bars at the top and bottom. Which is what it looked like anyway... just with additional blank screen on the sides all the way to the walls. Pathetic.

Regardless, movies should not be presented this way in a movie theatre! It looked as though we were watching a DVD at home on our big screen, in letterbox with black bars at the top and bottom. And the whole image wasn't even on the whole screen. It was a picture, within a picture, within a small portion of the screen! I paid $10 for this?

Another nail in the coffin for movie theatres! People aren't gonna pay for that again. I for one won't. I'll just stay home with my DLP In Focus projector and screen and rent DVD's. I never thought I would be pushed away from going to the movies... And like I said, how many other customers at the theatre feel the same way after this....? AMC is not only disgracing themselves, they're disgracing all movie theatres, and turning the public away from going back to ANY movie theatre, ever!!!
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-25-2004, 06:17 PM:
 
So why didn't you go to the management, demand a refund, and express your dissatisfaction with the presentation?

If you let the theatre keep your money without a fuss, how will they know you hated it?

Just complaining here on Film-Tech won't solve anything. You have to hit'em where it hurts, i.e. the cash drawer.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-25-2004, 06:45 PM:
 
Although AMC execs read this and hopefully will take note of Eric's dissatisfaction with the presentation he received on this particular show and location, I must agree with Mike that the first step is to always refuse to leave the grounds without a refund. Then complain via letter to corporate and/or places like this.
 

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Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 10-25-2004, 08:57 PM:
 

quote: Eric Hooper

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This AMC (1000 Van Ness) has side masking in all auditoriums that I know of

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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So why didn't you go to the management, demand a refund, and express your dissatisfaction with the presentation?

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quote: Mike Olpin

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As far as I remember, the theatre on the second floor, off the hallway before you hit the mini-concession-lobby has top masking. Also, they have a full Cinema DLP set-up on one of the auditoriums there. I don't understand why AMC wouldn't play Final Cut on that?

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I don't go to this theatre much, but yes, Mike, I believe you are right. It is theatre #9, which they were showing Ladder 49 in. It's a very tiny theatre. But still, I knew they had a theatre with a flat wall to wall screen and that was one of the thoughts that ran through my head when the movie started. Why weren't they using that auditorium. However, we were around the corner in auditorium #8, which I beleve is a larger auditorium, and it was quite a full showing.

I have never seen any of their other digital projection. But I did wonder if the other digital projection presentations they hype up so much in the newspaper listings looked like what we were being treated to...
 

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Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 10-25-2004, 11:21 PM:
 
There is an interesting editorial in the newly arrived November 2004 issue of Film Journal.

In what has to be a first for any trade magazine (I have never seen a trade magazine openly criticise anything before) FJ critises AMC's decision to use their pre-show advertising system for delivery of a feature motion picture.

Says Film Journal:
"We believe that if you are going to show a movie to an audience that pays a standard price, they deserve the best quality that technology can provide. Anything less is simply not acceptable."
"The major concern with experiments using less than 2K is that you send a message to the general public to expect inferior quality. These experiments also chip away at the idea of a single global system and can result in the deterioration of any semblance of standards."
"If a rollout of digital cinema is not achieved in 2005, we also fear that the major proponents and creators of digital equipment might have their financing and funding withdrawn by their parent companies. This would be a travesty. We hope that sound minds prevail in the coming months."

I find it more than ironic that a magazine entitled "Film Journal" is so concerned about digital cinema.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-26-2004, 12:06 AM:
 
Well, I guess the AMC execs are probably the only ones who thought this was a good idea. I'd like to say "I told you so!" but I'm sure I'm not the only who said it.

Anyone at our theater could tell you how crappy the digital pre show projectors look. Yes, even the 14 year olds who've never been in the booth, and the janitors who don't speak english. And the sound is "Oh My God" Horrible. There was talk at one point of putting the trailers on the pre-show projectors. I hope that idea dies a quick violent painful death.

But I know AMC, and I predict that despite the criticism, they will continue to do this (because the execs don't care about presentation quality at all - if they did, they would burn down the theater down the street that proudly scratches amd mutilates half the prints they receive) and at the same time, they will call themselves "innovators".
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-26-2004, 07:06 PM:
 
If the Regalistas or Cinemarkers ever pull that stunt here, they will be refunding my money every time, and they'll get scathing letters and emails, demanding to know what the hell they think they're pulling. I'll also make lots of noise here on this forum and I'll write letters to the entertainment editors of the local newspapers. I'll badmouth them to all my moviegoing friends too. That's just totally unacceptable and if AMC is officially sanctioning that, all I can say is god help the movie biz because they're committing business suicide. That's one of the most fucked-up things I've ever read here.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-26-2004, 08:29 PM:
 
Why anyone would want to go to an AMC Theatre is beyond me...... perhaops they have good popcorn. I would certainly go out of my way to see a film at the next closest theatre chain. Just wait for the film to come out on DVD then you can see it properly at home.....

Mark
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-26-2004, 08:37 PM:
 
I stopped by an AMC 30 plex recently as I had to waste 4 hours (on company time nonetheless) while waiting for a supplier to finish an order I was picking up.

The popcorn was the worst popcorn I'd ever had! The lamp needed replacing sometime last year too.

I also nearly broke my ankle and/or foot while falling down an unlite (and non-visible, even to someone who spends a lot of time in the dark) set of stairs in the back of the auditorium.
 

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Posted by Eric Hooper (Member # 1730) on 10-26-2004, 11:32 PM:
 
Thank you, David, for understanding why I was so upset and why I posted the experience on here. It IS business suicide for ALL theatres if they keep this up!!!
 

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Posted by Emma Tomiak (Member # 1862) on 10-27-2004, 03:03 AM:
 
Hey Daryl,

Unlit stairs are a challenge, sure, but you should really watch out for those splicers, too. They attack toes.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-27-2004, 03:06 AM:
 
Never had an issue with splicers and toes wearing steel toed shoes.
 

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Posted by Emma Tomiak (Member # 1862) on 10-27-2004, 03:13 AM:
 
I wish I had been...
 

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Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 10-27-2004, 09:21 AM:
 
About while ago (9/11/04), I exhibited an HD (720 P) broadcast of a NASCAR race using my cinema grade DLP projector. Overrode the side masking to pratically mask the side image. (Didn't want to break the masking mechanism) It looked sharp. Signal was received by a satelite truck and brought up to the booth.

I wouldn't have wanted to see what it looked like using a smaller projector like what they used.
 

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Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 10-28-2004, 11:35 PM:
 
Saw an article in November's issue of Boxoffice regarding this and also putting the idea down for the same reasons mentioned before in here such as "this is what people will start to think Digital Cinema will be like and stop going" etc. Considering that article went to print at least a few weeks ago, pretty interesting that they thought it was a bad idea before anyone here saw it and mentioned it. Wonder why AMC didn't think so!
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-29-2004, 08:42 AM:
 
I love poor quality DLP screeings. They just make film look that much better by comparison!

The high-end DLP stuff looks pretty darn good right now (and the 2k machine is amazing, even with a DVD source...still not quite film, though), but I'd hate to see film go away until they make a machine that produces a picture that is better than the best that 70mm film can offer--and such machines are affordable to theatre owners.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-29-2004, 09:20 AM:
 
http://www.kodak.com/go/dcinema

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/digital/showeast1.jhtml?id=0.1.4.24.18&lc=en

quote:

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"We are committed to doing our part to help ensure that the digital projection technology of the future matches or exceeds the best possible image quality that exhibitors can present with 35 mm equipment," says Kodak Entertainment Imaging Division President Eric Rodli. "We believe that will ultimately require higher resolution digital projectors with a capacity for faithfully reproducing the full dynamic range of nuances in colors and contrast that today's films are capable of recording."

The Kodak CineServer unveiled at the (ShowEast 2004) conference is designed to enable exhibitors to decrypt, decompress and send content to up to 2K resolution projectors. Rodli says that Kodak is committed to a 4K system and will provide leadership as digital projection technology continues to evolve. He also stresses that film quality sets a moving target.

"We have made a quantum leap forward in emulsion technology with the new generation of KODAK VISION2 films," Rodli says. "When you couple that ongoing progress with gains being made in digital intermediate technology, the possibilities for creating more nuanced and visually compelling motion pictures are unlimited."

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Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 10-31-2004, 03:48 AM:
 
Ya we suck

From what I understand the powers that be found out that the existing Digital projection system, using some fantastic prosumer grade Sanyo projectors, wasnt up to snuff when we exclusived Evergreen.

"We're" in the process of rolling out all new units to be used for exclusive cuts only. Problem, they are custom units and have to be hand built by Sanyo so phasing them in is a slow process. Only one (maybe two) theaters in our market have these new projectors.

My personal opinion: We got hosed in the first place, the original units are good units for HT use, or maybe for large screen power point presentations in confrence halls...not movie theaters.

I wonder if ill be fired on monday
 

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Posted by David Yauch (Member # 2754) on 11-02-2004, 12:41 AM:
 
We are getting mini digital projectors in for kodak digital preshow entertainment. If we show anything more than animated slides someone is going to hear from me.
 

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Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 11-07-2004, 07:01 PM:
 
I was in a large AMC theatre on Friday, and whatever video projector they were using was BRIGHT. The image was about 40' across, and was as bright as the film image when it changed over.

It still looked like video, but there was NO problem with the brightness. I don't know what projector was being used, but it looked fairly small. I would not consider this to be an acceptable image for clarity, but brightness was no problem.

Theatre was AMC Lennox 24.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-07-2004, 08:20 PM:
 
Brightness isn't a problem on the ones I've seen. The problem is the sound is generally horrible, and the resolution sucks ass. Not to mention the fact that the picture NEVER fits properly on the screen. My laptop has a higher resolution than those projectors.

Come to think of it, my laptop has better sound too.
 

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Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 11-08-2004, 07:46 AM:
 
I agree...resolution and sound were poor. I was commenting strictly on the brightness of the image.

Still a LONG way to go to equal 35mm film. What I saw was about 8mm quality. It's fine for slide-type "PowerPoint" images, but that's about all.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-08-2004, 08:25 AM:
 
What kind of projectors are the new AMC pre-show units? (What resolution and what technology like DLP or LCD?) Are they really custom made?

Steve
 

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Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 11-08-2004, 11:38 AM:
 
Sanyo PLC XP55

These are the units we have at our theater, I can not confirm that these units are used at every theater in the nation, or even in my market.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-08-2004, 09:07 PM:
 
These are the new projectors?
 

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Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 11-09-2004, 01:36 PM:
 
as far as I know.

They are used for the slides, and pre show "entertainment" AND were used for the exclusives cuts (evergreen and Final Cut)
 

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