Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Sconce lighting

This is topic Sconce lighting - on or off during shows? in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-26-2004, 07:30 PM:

We just added backlighting to the triangular decorative accents on our auditorium walls. What's the opinion of the group... should such lighting be left on (but dim, of course) during the movies, or turned off completely?

Currently I'm leaving the lights on during the trailers and turning them off for the feature. I've sat and watched a film with the lights on, and they didn't bother ME, but what do you all think?

I'll try to get a photo of the lights and add it here tonight.

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 10-26-2004, 08:35 PM:

We have 60 watt and 11 watt bulbs in our sconces. Both are on before and after the feature. Only the 11 watt ones stay on during the show. Never had a complaint about them being distracting.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-26-2004, 09:16 PM:

To me lighting on the side walls is fine so long as the fixture does not permit anyone to have a direct line of sight to the actual bulb element and they are dimmed during the feature.

Leaving the ceiling lights on at any level during the feature is evil though. No respect whatsoever for people with glasses!

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-26-2004, 10:45 PM:

Sometimes (depending on the bulbs) turning the bulbs on and off repeatedly throughout the day is worse on the bulb and will cause them to burn out much quicker than leaving them on all the time. So I vote for dim, but on during the feature.

Posted by Eric Hooper (Member # 1730) on 10-26-2004, 11:39 PM:

The Regal/UA in Berkeley has frosted wall fixtures with 100-watt bulbs in them in two of their upstairs auditoriums in which they leave on at full blast during the movie. It's horrendous! [Mad]

The Landmark Embarcadero in San Francisco has similar to what you mention geographic designs with lights behind them that dim during the movie. It's a very nice effect. [Cool]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-27-2004, 12:03 AM:

If the lights don't distract people, I vote with the "Leave 'em on" crowd.

This all depends on the design of your theater but leaving the lights just aglow can be a good thing. It helps people know where the walls are.

Of course they aren't bright enough to actually light up the walls but the light coming from them defines the edges of the room so the customer can subconsciously "connect the dots".

It's just one of those things that makes people feel more comfortable when they are in a strange place.

I do this in my theater. We have crystal chandeliers hanging from the ceiling along the walls. I leave them so that the filaments are just glowing and you can see them when you look up. They are high enough that they aren't in the line of sight unless you look up for them.

However, once you look up, the place is no longer a giant black box. The chandeliers and the exit signs form a constellation of lights that the customer can use to find their way out when they need to.

If you have good aisle pathway lighting, I'd say it's a toss-up.
Do whatever you think looks better.

Posted by John Hegel (Member # 628) on 10-27-2004, 02:31 AM:

The auditorium I’m hoping to use as a movie theater has 30+ 300 watt lights in the ceiling. Since this theater is so big I need to have some lights on over the walk ways.

My question is how can you keep bulbs of that size from buzzing when they are dimmed?

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 10-27-2004, 02:31 AM:

also check to make sure the lights don't illuminate the screen and reduce contrast. some theaters around here have bright exit signs right near the screen that simply bathe half the screen in green during dark shots. it's maddening!

personally, i don't like any potentially distracting lights stealing my attention from the film.

quote: Eric Hooper
The Landmark Embarcadero in San Francisco has similar to what you mention geographic designs with lights behind them that dim during the movie.

next time you're there, check out what the "geographic" designs spell out. i didn't notice until someone drew my attention to it.

carl

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 10-27-2004, 02:52 AM:

Brad put what I think very succinctly.

I think dim sconces are good. If it's just enough to define the location of the side walls, it make folks comfortable & usually is enought light to identify the aisles.

Overhead lighting should go off. Even in big houses with a chandelier up near the moon, it's obtrusive for folks in the balcony. But if the balcony has no sconces, you'll need something. If you can light it very dim blue or amber, just to pre-heat really, it's not as bad.

quote: John Hegel
The auditorium I’m hoping to use as a movie theater has 30+ 300 watt lights in the ceiling. Since this theater is so big I need to have some lights on over the walk ways.

300 W lights?

I'd first look at end-of-row aisle lights, think of putting the ceiling lights on 2 circuits so that just some could be left on during the movie, changing the lights over the points in the aisles you want to illuminate from floods to spots so they just illuminate a spot on the floor in the aisle, etc.

I find aisle lights that are mounted on the seat standards at the ends of every few rows, shining directly on the floor, are less distracting during a movie than the LED aisle runners.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-27-2004, 07:58 AM:

quote: John Hegel
My question is how can you keep bulbs of that size from buzzing when they are dimmed?

A resistive or variac type dimmer (that maintains a sinusoidal power waveform) usually has no problem, but SCR or Triac dimmers may cause some filaments to buzz.

I wrote an article about "Contrast Killers", including poorly controlled auditorium lighting:

Conquering Contrast Killers

quote:
Contrast Killer 1: Auditorium Lighting
The first step in conquering contrast killers is to simply look at the "dark"
screen. Exit signs, aisle lighting, ceiling lights, wall lighting, and booth lights
should be set to normal show levels. The projector lamp should be on, but the
dowser closed. After taking about five minutes to let your eyes get used to the
low light level in the auditorium, look at the screen. Is it truly "black"? If not,
get on a stepladder or use a long pole to cast a shadow on the screen to
identify the source of stray light.
Exit signs are a necessary source of light that must sometimes be located near
the screen. Their brightness and color are strictly regulated by fire code. Their
purpose is to guide patrons to the exits in case of emergency. But nothing says they need to shine ON the screen. Usually, only a simple shield is needed
to keep their light from hitting the screen, without compromising their function
of clearly identifying the exits. The newer light emitting diode (LED) exit signs
offer the possibility of more directionality to the light, with less stray light on
the screen.
Aisle and step lights need to be bright enough to safely guide theatre patrons
to and from their seats in a darkened theatre. They DO NOT need to be bright
enough to guide a jet plane to a landing on a foggy runway. Adjust these
guide lights to the minimum brightness that ensures safety, without shining on
the screen or being a distraction in the darkened theatre.
Many theatres use a low level of ceiling illumination during the show for the
safety and security of their patrons. Care should be taken to shield the screen
from direct illumination from these overhead lights. Decorative lighting that
doesn't contribute to safety should not be used during the show.
Don't forget other sources of stray light that may shine on the screen,
including those that aren't constant. Does light from the lobby shine on the
screen every time someone walks into the theatre during a show? If this
design flaw was missed when the theatre was built, correct it now. Can work
lights in the booth ever shine on the screen? Make sure they don't. Are kids
with laser pointers a problem? Enforce a strict policy banning laser pointers,
and reward patrons that report perpetrators.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 2038) on 10-27-2004, 01:45 PM:

In our single-screen 520-seater, we use red 25w bulbs in the side wall sconces, blue 150w spots at the rear of the auditorium that are pointed (away from the screen) at the rest room and lobby doors, and 8 overhead 150w floods, that we dim slightly when nothing is on the screen, and run very dim, but still on, during the show. We don't have aisle lights. We get a lot of seniors and except for those entering from bright sunshine, we have few complaints of "blindness" by those entering after the show starts.

We don't have a curtain but we run red 150w spots on the screen, through the rating on the trailer, and then during credits, along with ceiling lights brought up when credits start at the end of the feature.

The effect is nice overall, and gives our old theater a nice ambience.

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 10-27-2004, 02:02 PM:

quote: John Pytlak
A resistive or variac type dimmer (that maintains a sinusoidal power waveform) usually has no problem, but SCR or Triac dimmers may cause some filaments to buzz

Very true.

However there are new technologies available that although more expensive than traditional SCR dimmers, offer some substantive advantages.

First off - IGBT dimmers. IGBT dimmers reduce lamp noise. They say reduce, in my experience it eliminates it altogether. And almost all the heat the dimmer produces, and the noise a conventional dimmer makes, the buzzing of the chokes.

Rosco IPS IGBT Dimmers

Another solution is an electronic dimmer that has a sinewave output, and thus can completely replace variacs and resistive solutions.

Silent Dimming

If you are running old dimmers that generate significant heat for long hours a day, an IGBT dimmer will drop in replace it, and generate less heat. You're paying for that heat, and thus your nice new dimmer will pay for itself over a couple of years. This is especially true if you're using resistive dimming, as although the bulbs are dimmer, there isnt a reduction in power consumed, it just all comes out as heat.

Posted by Cory Isemann (Member # 2517) on 10-28-2004, 07:57 AM:

At Regal, we get hit on checker reports if the lights aren't at the proper levels for the duration of the checker's visit.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 10-28-2004, 10:18 AM:

I prefer all houselights OFF except for aisle lights and exit lights. It's best if the aisle and exit lights are dimmable too.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 10-28-2004, 12:11 PM:

Dimming Exit lights would get you in trouble in most locales.
They are to be at a minimum illumination value by law.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 10-28-2004, 05:41 PM:

does the law take into account that movie theater exit signs will be shining in the dark and thus don't need to shine anywhere near as brightly as they would in a restaurant, say, to be visible? not to mention that they're a detriment when they shine so brightly.

carl

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-28-2004, 06:10 PM:

quote: Carl Martin
does the law take into account that movie theater exit signs will be shining in the dark and thus don't need to shine anywhere near as brightly as they would in a restaurant, say, to be visible?

I suspect the main reason there is a requirement for a certain brightness is that the signs need to be easily seen through smoke. Use a shield to keep the light off the screen, but don't compromise safety by dimming the signs below the required brightness.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-28-2004, 08:26 PM:

quote: Carl Martin
does the law take into account that movie theater exit signs will be shining in the dark and thus don't need to shine anywhere near as brightly as they would in a restaurant, say, to be visible?

I'd hope that in any modern theatre the house lights would automatically come up full in the event of a fire alarm.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-28-2004, 10:34 PM:

quote: Daryl C. W. O'Shea

I'd hope that in any modern theatre the house lights would automatically come up full in the event of a fire alarm.

In just about all of the recently built commercial theaters I have worked at, the fire alarm system is interlocked to the movie projectors. When the fire alarm is activated all projectors in the building are cut off. When the projectors are cut off the house lights come up.

In two out of three venues that I am in charge of at the college, the theater lights have a "Panic" mode to them which brings on ALL circuits to 100% when activated. Although I can see why such a feature would be used, I don't care for it. I can think of several reasons why not to use it.

In movie theaters, I think a projector cut-off is a good idea.

Posted by Dick Twentyman (Member # 2746) on 10-28-2004, 10:49 PM:

In Australia, it is common practice for house lights to be held at reduced level for filmads and trailers to allow latecomers to find their seats. These lights are then taken out for the feature, and brought back to half for end credits. While feature is screening, only aisle and exit lights are illuminated (aisle lights are on dimmers) as required by law. The Building Code of Australia also requires exit lights to be illuminated at all times that the public occupy a premises. The relevant Australian Standard requires exit lights to be white lettering on a green background, but allows for theatre and cinema auditoriums to use exit lights with green lettering on a black background. My preference is all lighting (other than aisle and exit lights) to be OFF whilst feature is screening. Light from the screen is more than adequate to define the auditorium space limits.

Posted by Jeffrey Korns (Member # 2791) on 11-07-2004, 09:13 PM:

Hello.

According to some retired projectionists and stage hands I had opportunity to know over the years, the grand movie palaces always had lights on during the presentations. These were the large theatres that had coves and domes that were lit with a 3 color light system. According to these employees no respectable manager ever had a completely dark theatre. They would light the domes softly during different portions of the program. Red cove lighting might be used during the newsreel and blue during the feature. Quite often the small sidewall sconces would be on, but at a reduced level. Of course when these theatres were built they operated on a continuous show basis, so ushers would be regularly showing patrons to their seats.

Recently the local performing arts center (a very ornate 1928 movie theatre of 2000 seats with lots of coves, domes, and under balcony domes) was "renovated/restored". About 6 years ago our theatre organ society helped re lamp the 3 light system and used it effectively during silent film presentations and other organ events (it helps that we have a union stage hand and professional light tech on our board). The problem is that the management of the theatre has no idea how to use the indirect lighting system. As the opaque 25 watt colored bulbs burned out the low paid maintaining staff replaced them with higher wattage, standard, white bulbs. The management does not understand indirect lighting, or care about it. Our group, and several of the employees who care about the theatre, are pushing to get the money and time to restore the lighting again.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-07-2004, 11:42 PM:

Well, with the sconce out there is greater risk of injury if people are going to and from concessions and the movie happens to be dark. But wit sconce in they are more apt to be eating cheese. [Eek!]

(Sorry that was really bad.)

Posted by Jarryd Beard (Member # 2543) on 11-15-2004, 04:25 PM:

Our wall lights are full for Screenvision slides, mid for trailers, low (not off) for feature, and mid for credits. Projectionist usually brings lights up to full during credits on a busy night when we have clean in a hurry. (Flushes out those patrons who must read every credit b/c they want to hire the caterer for their wedding or something. I have to give David G. credit for that joke.)

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 11-15-2004, 05:24 PM:

quote: Jarryd Beard
Flushes out those patrons

so you treat your patrons like shit? seriously though, if they paid to watch the film they should watch as much of it as they please. i watch the credits, and i hardly ever pay to see a film.

carl

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 11-17-2004, 04:43 AM:

urgh! this issue has just reared its ugly head. yesterday my manager had bulbs put in our long-unused sconces in the upstairs theaters. they shone on the screen for the first set today, after which i disabled them. we tried out some blue bulbs which seemed ok, but he insists the amber looks nicer. they'll be put on a (manual) dimmer at some point but until then it's just going to look tacky during the show.

the sconces probably were a much better idea when they were in the balcony before the theater was triplexed.

carl

Posted by Jarryd Beard (Member # 2543) on 11-17-2004, 11:41 AM:

quote: Carl Martin
so you treat your patrons like shit?

Sorry Carl, a bit of humor. Our theatre is slope style and we always make sure our employees never clean in front of or even near patrons watching the credits. The reason for bringing the lights up to full is a bit of aid to floor staff that may be cleaning a heavily littered area. (It's rare to use the work lights because some people may still be in the auditorium.) We try our best to make sure all patrons have a great experiance at Carmike.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-18-2004, 03:54 PM:

Work lights should NEVER be turned on during credits if a patron is still in the auditorium, unless they are the ONLY one in the auditorium, and they're crawling around on the floor looking for their keys. Don't schedule The Incredibles to start up again ten minutes after it's over on a Sunday afternoon, and you won't have that problem!

[thumbsdown]

Film done wrong!

Posted by Jarryd Beard (Member # 2543) on 11-18-2004, 07:41 PM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Work lights should NEVER be turned on during credits if a patron is still in the auditorium

I'm sorry for this being such an issue. I hope, Mark, you don't think we turn the work lights on with patrons present. I said that it's rare that we get to use the work lights for that very reason, the fact that patrons are present. What is done is bringing the sconce lighting up to full. These have very little interference with the screen. Even if a patron was missing keys, they would have wait until all others have left the auditorium until the work lights would be turned on. In fact, we've turned the work lights on pre-show for one patron when she was in an empty house and wanted read a book before her movie. Other than that, no work lights with patrons. I have been to Loews Theatre and witnessed the slide projector being turned on during the credits. That's just plain rude. The projectionist just stood looking out the port after he did it.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-18-2004, 08:53 PM:

Okie doke. Sounds like we're pretty much on the same page. Thanks for the clarification, and sorry for the confusion! [Smile]

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 11-23-2009, 03:54 PM:

It has been 1830 days since the last post.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-23-2009, 03:54 PM:

Sorry if I pick up this old thread.
I'm living in the UK now and I'm quite shocked watching movies with lights turned ON during main feature!!
In my country law says that stairs and exit paths must be illuminated (usually we use led lights). Law says that fire exit sign must be illuminated too. Where I used to work, our signs were dimmed during the feature and they would glow 100% if a fire alarm was activated.

Now, I've been in a VUE, in an Odeon and in a Showcase Cinemas. Showcase Cinemas is the only one that does NOT keep light on during performance, suggesting me that maybe UK's law is NOT saying that the light must be on.
But in both VUE and Odeon cinemas I was VERY annoyed by the lights. I wear glasses and as Brad said even the dimmest light can unfortunately reflect in our lenses (even with anti-reflect treatment). But I think that when you see the cone of light of the "safety light" on the screen there's definitely something wrong.

I saw "A Christmas Carol" at Odeon, I could see the whole room, I could have read a newspaper. The contrast on screen was very poor, blacks were completely washed out and I could see the shadow of the masking on the screen.

I'm so surprised, never - ever - watched a movie with lights turned on in my country. What's the purpose of projecting a movie in a room that is not completely dark??

Marco

Posted by Caleb Johnstone-Cowan (Member # 3710) on 11-23-2009, 10:20 PM:

In the UK lighting levels will depend on the licensing conditions set out by the local council, this Act is 100 years old now and also provides the legal basis for councils to censor films if they want to.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-24-2009, 06:30 PM:

Hello Caleb

On what basis Councils decide the lighting level in the auditorium? Since Vue and Showcase are both in Reading (Borough Council) and one has lights on and the other has not, I would think that it depends on something related to the room itself.

I'm not going to pay money in low-quality cinemas with lights ON during feature!!

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 11-25-2009, 07:28 AM:

I think some chains have had issues of people suing them after falling down auditorium stairways, claiming that there was not enough light. These people would probably have tripped over on a completely flat floor.

Some auditoria are better designed in terms of lighting than others, and can have stairways lit without disturbing many people.

Edinburgh Council states in its cinema licence conditons

quote:
20 All exit doors in the premises shall be indicated by a fixed lighting transparency bearing the word “EXIT” in
letters no less than 10 centimetres high. All exit doors shall be useable at the end of each performance.
The transparency shall be illuminated by a maintained system of lighting and must be visible from the
auditorium at all times when the premises are open to the public.

...

27 The premises shall be lit to the satisfaction of the Council. A maintained system of secondary lighting shall
be provided throughout the building, kept in proper working order and kept on when the premises are open
to the public.

Since those conditions were published the word "EXIT" on the signs has been replaced with the running man symbol.