Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Old style marquees (Snap-Lok letters)

This is topic Old style marquees (Snap-Lok letters) in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001475

Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 07-12-2005, 02:29 PM:

I've been looking all morning/afternoon for a company that still makes the retro style marquees: The ones with the metal bars across white plastic with flourescent bulbs, and then the letters, which are quite large with hooks cut in them, slide on the metal bar strips.

This is the best pic I could find on the internet:

Any links to signage companies that make these cool retro marquees?

Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 07-12-2005, 03:35 PM:

I know when Harkins re-opened the Valley Art, they bought boxes of those cast aluminum letters from a guy in Florida who was selling them on eBay. To the best of my knowledge, nobody makes them anymore, so you just have to find someone with "authentic" letters.
Click for more pictures of Harkins Valley Art, before and after

There are some trashy looking ones on eBay right now

Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 07-12-2005, 07:24 PM:

Andy--

Look at Snap-Lok or Wagner Signs. Many eons ago, when I was an
usher, we had the 12" Wagner slotted letters. At that time they cost about $1.50 each. They are still in production, how-
ever!

Posted by Mike Croaro (Member # 3123) on 07-12-2005, 09:41 PM:

Hi Folks:

Bevelite Adler was a big manufacturer of these old style marquee letters. They changed their name to Gemini about 10 years ago. I would suspect the letters are still made. A good sign company should be able to order them as well as most theatre supply houses.

Mike

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-12-2005, 10:48 PM:

Slotted letters are still in use. Wagner Zip Change is the most popular vendor of such letters. Gemini also sells a good bit. Slotted changeable copy letters are not nearly as common as the flat "zip" type letters that slide into clear plastic track.

Where budgets allow, these types of changeable copy signs are falling out of favor and being replaced with LED-based electronic message centers. There's lots of advantages in such signs -with one of the big ones being you don't have to be out there in the weather trying to fiddle with letters using some suction cup thingie on a pole.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 07-13-2005, 01:20 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Where budgets allow, these types of changeable copy signs are falling out of favor and being replaced with LED-based electronic message centers. There's lots of advantages in such signs -with one of the big ones being you don't have to be out there in the weather trying to fiddle with letters using some suction cup thingie on a pole.

Except for historic applications. Some buildings on the National Register, prohibiting use of federal grant money (which lots of non-profits live on)to be used to alter the front of the building from original appearance. Also, for-profit historic theaters which do not seek grant money may be in historic districts where code may not allow alteration of the facade, etc. from historic appearance. The New Orleans Saenger is a for-profit in such a district & would not be able to replace its hanging-letter sign, not that it would want to do so, since the theatre has a permanent restoration & preservation program.

There are a number of non-profit PAC's that have gotten waivers, etc. to replace original hanging-letter signs with LED or fiber optic so it looks modern, they're too lazy to go out & change the sign, or they just want to be seen as "doing something", but historic facades with ultra-modern signage really do look not just awkward, but tasteless. In 10 years, they'll look just like the ugly commercial storefronts downtown built in the '30s or earlier that had contemporary aluminum & porcelain features strapped on the front to look 'modern' in the 50s & 60s that caused the blighted look that brought codes for facades into being in the first place.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-13-2005, 05:49 AM:

We sell Gemini & Wagner letters on a daily basis. 90% chance to match anything. Louis

Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 07-13-2005, 10:07 AM:

Thanks, I found a bunch of companies that sell the Snap-Lok and Gemini letters, but I was wandering/looking for a company that still made the actual marquee that these specific letters go on.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-13-2005, 11:07 AM:

Lookat sign shops that indicate they sell NEON signs. While not all of them will do lettewrboards, they will ceertainly know who does. Remember these are glorified fluorescent fixtures with panels attached. This may be something you can do yourself; letters and track are available from any of us.

Louis

Posted by Brandon Willis (Member # 2345) on 07-19-2005, 03:39 PM:

That's a cool picture of a Cineplex Odeon drive in marquee. Is the theatre still operating or has it had "closed for the season" on the marquee for like 10 years or something?

Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 07-19-2005, 03:49 PM:

Showtimes can be found at:
http://www.cineplexgalaxy.com

Its in Manitoba.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-19-2005, 09:52 PM:

Any custom sign company worth a damn will be able to make a theater marquee with little trouble. That includes the company where I work. But I'm not going to spam my company here.

We just made a pretty nice, but kinda generic, marquee sign for an unusual client: North Texas State Hospital, a mental care facility. It has a vertical "blade" type sign featuring open channel letters with exposed neon. The letters simply say "theater". The sign also has a V-shaped marquee using 4 inch Zip style letters.

It's not very difficult to make a great looking marquee at all. What's difficult it designing it where you can actually attach it to a building of any historical significance. Features of the building have to bear the load of the sign. Often you'll see tension cables, kickbacks and other stabilizing devices added to such signs to spread out the weight load of the sign.

quote: William Hooper
historic facades with ultra-modern signage really do look not just awkward, but tasteless

That really depends on two factors. 1: How the sign is designed, 2: How the sign is maintained.

On the design front, there's lots of hacks and wannabes in the sign industry and graphic design industry in general who really need to have jobs elsewhere. That business is NOT a democracy. Not everybody deserves to get work there. It's just like any other skilled profession. You need to have some talent and skill to do the work. Unfortunately enough dumbasses out there believe computers are doing all the work and therefore believe anyone can do graphic design -so just hire the jerk willing to work for the least amount of money. If anyone wants to bitch and gripe about how bad the commercial districts look, particularly in regard to signs a major part of the cause is what I just described.

The maintenance factor is a much worse problem.

Some people may dislike LED video boards and think they're all obnoxious. But let's not overlook the areas where traditional changeable copy signs start looking like hell. The cabinets need periodic service. The letter track has to be cleaned otherwise dirt builds. Drive through any business district and you're bound to see at least a few changeable copy signs with burnt out lamps and ballasts --if not blown out sign faces.

As far as taste goes, the thing I don't like about most changeable copy signs is the start white background. With smaller letters, the effect of halation can be a big problem. The lighted white background can literally flood away the readability of the letters. It's a pain to make reverse "Zip Lite" letters and other similar solutions work well.

Most LED-based boards, even the RGB video models, are flat units. They could use more style, particularly in how they're framed. However, some custom applications of LEDs have curved around building surfaces, replaced the chase lights in channel letters and been turned into flowing ribbons of color far beyond anything movies like Bladerunner predicted. Suchs signs represent the very top end of sign products. Unfortunately they're expensive as hell.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 07-25-2005, 04:34 AM:

I'll immediately agree that some designs are really good solutions to the problem of what to put up that will look OK, & some are awful. But they're both in the category of doing what can be done with an assignment that's not going to come out looking 'right' anyway.

quote: Bobby Henderson
As far as taste goes, the thing I don't like about most changeable copy signs is the start white background. With smaller letters, the effect of halation can be a big problem. The lighted white background can literally flood away the readability of the letters.

You've admitted that you don't like the way they look, personally I don't have a preference as far as the signs in isolation are concerned. It's just that they're an awkward & blatantly inaccurate-looking modern replacement item on historic facades. As such, they may also be prohibited in some cases.

A big disadvantage LED signs have that you don't mention is that when a hurricane's on the way, you can't just take down the letters & panels until the thing's gone, & still have your sign...

Posted by John Hegel (Member # 628) on 08-01-2005, 01:07 AM:

Does anyone else have a sign with "Adler Silhouette" 3D letters on it? I'v been looking around, but noone has heard of them.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-02-2005, 03:14 PM:

Adler became Bevelite-Adler in the 60s or 70s. It was absorbed into Gemini in the 80s. Alas. it is the end of the run for the wonderful letters you show in your picture. (Dick Strauss (Bevelite) was a good friend and the world's oldest hippie. About 80 when he died.)

Louis

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-02-2005, 06:23 PM:

quote: William Hooper
A big disadvantage LED signs have that you don't mention is that when a hurricane's on the way, you can't just take down the letters & panels until the thing's gone, & still have your sign...

Businesses don't have sign companies running around removing sign face panels in advance of a hurricane. There's no practical way to have that done. The only thing a business can do is have the sense to buy a well-built sign up front (instead of the cheapest piece of junk available) and have the thing insured.

Regarding durability, LED-based message centers are going to withstand severe storms better than any changeable copy sign. Message center structures have thicker steel construction and more internal support elements.

A changeable copy sign is effectively a hollow box. Some are nothing more than a mere thin aluminum extrusion with no internal bracing. We build our cabinets with heavy steel angle and put in a lot of steel bracing on the insides to keep the cabinet from twisting or bowing. We also use more substantial retainers to hold in the faces or face sections. But any Lexan or acrylic face is eventually going to give way when exposed to a strong enough wind -or impacted with flying debris.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 08-02-2005, 11:52 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Businesses don't have sign companies running around removing sign face panels in advance of a hurricane. There's no practical way to have that done. The only thing a business can do is have the sense to buy a well-built sign up front (instead of the cheapest piece of junk available) and have the thing insured.

Yes they do, or they take the panels down themselves. I'll take some pictures next approaching hurricane. They take down the letters, panels, & pull out the lighting tubes. Admittedly, some do not, but some folks don't board their windows, either.

If you're impatient, you could call the Loew's or Saenger in New Orleans (their staffs don't roll over unexpectedly) & ask if they do.

(edit, realizing the insurance angle should be addressed):

quote: Bobby Henderson
But any Lexan or acrylic face is eventually going to give way when exposed to a strong enough wind -or impacted with flying debris.

And so that being even, repairs & insurance costs will be more with electronic signs, because what's behind the panel is more expensive. Again, if you take the panel off (of a hanging-letter sign), you haven't even got that expense.

Also, you're in Oklahoma & are likely more familiar with tornadoes, but hurricanes are different. They're essentially 4 or 5 hours of being in a blender with varying weights of debris, with some advance warning before the event. Even if you leave the sign up, a well-placed streetlight or road sign will do more damage, & more costly damage, to an electronic sign. Boom goes a panel & the lamps behind, to be replaced, or boom goes the panel & the LED array, etc. behind.

Being aware that hurricane damage is variable due to luck of the draw with the type of debris, pulling down the panels & lamps saves that replacement cost from lighter debris like road signs which may hit the front. That damage would be costly & a big, rate-hiking insurance claim on an electronic sign. Moving up in damage, even a well-placed streetlight after the panels are out would result in just a sheet metal job on the box, with still far more expensive damage if it had been an electronic.

Yes, I've seen eviscerated electronic signs after hurricanes. Electronic signs are for big-bucks casinos. Almost all other flashy new electronic signs destroyed by hurricanes & tornadoes are replaced by hanging-letter signs which will be less expensive to protect or replace after the next hurricane.

(But for all the Tornado Alley cachet, the US gulf coast has about the same frequency of tornadoes setting off that screeching EMA box:
http://www.edgetech-us.com/Map/MapTornado.htm

Also, F3 & F5's aren't exclusive to Tornado Alley; the grouping is pretty, but the coastal states get them too:
http://www.tornadochaser.net/tornalley.html

You'll see that the most frequent city/county distribution includes less OK & TX, & more MS, AL, &^ other states. The Tornado Alley grouping of frequency attracts the eye, but spot occurrences of equal intensity fall more randomly outside.

Yeah, we live the wind damage-managing life down here on the coast. I see that Huntsville AL is #5 on the list of top 9 Cities for Long Track F3 to F5 Tornadoes in the United States from 1880 to 2003; I wonder if one carried Evans off to Munchkin-land.

[ 08-03-2005, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: William Hooper ]

Posted by John Hegel (Member # 628) on 08-03-2005, 02:34 AM:

Besides the letters the sign posted above has held up pretty well. It was installed in 1939. One side still has the original stained glass with its first set of neon tubes and a transformer from the early 80's. The other side had the glass broken out by some kid that threw a rock at it. When I replaced the glass with plexy I took out the neon and installed eight 4' florescence with electron ballests.

At the time we are only using the sign to advertise our fund-raiser to restore/rebuild the theater.

The front neon has done pretty well over the years too. It to was installed in 1939 and appears that the only new tubes are the three that are broke in the picture above.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-03-2005, 11:11 PM:

quote: William Hooper
Yes they do, or they take the panels down themselves. I'll take some pictures next approaching hurricane. They take down the letters, panels, & pull out the lighting tubes. Admittedly, some do not, but some folks don't board their windows, either.

I still find that hard to believe for a couple reasons. If people are removing sign face panels and HO/D lamps odd are they're private individuals doing that on their own. Or you have either rookie sign people getting persuaded to do the work.

A custom sign company with its own crane trucks, full time crews, etc. isn't just going to be waiting around on standby for storm duty. They're already going to have lots of install and service work to do that isn't storm related. They can't just drop all of that to run out and pull out someone's faces and lamps in advance of a storm.

Wind is another issue. You're not going to be sure a hurricane is going to hit your area until a couple days in advance. By that time you may already have squalls and other winds picking up. It isn't safe to have someone working in a crane basket 40 feet off the ground if the winds are blowing more than 20 or 30 miles per hour.

Also, what will the store operator protect in pulling out sign face panels and changeable letters? Honestly, it is really better to leave the face sections intact. It's a bad thing to have the insides of a sign cabinet blasted directly by rain, debris and other elements -especially if the sign is not built to NEC and UL Listing standards (which is kind of a common thing in the deep south). You also have to factor in the cost of the service call. Crane truck and service crew rentals aren't exactly cheap.

quote: William Hooper
Also, you're in Oklahoma & are likely more familiar with tornadoes, but hurricanes are different.

Growing up a military brat, I've lived in a number of hurricane prone areas. I've experienced typhoons in Japan, hurricanes in New Orleans, Northern Virginia and even, of all places, Yuma, AZ (freak storm in the mid 1970s that came up through the Baja Gulf).

But Lawton, OK has experienced its own ordeals with better than hurricane force winds for sustained periods of time. On May 22, 1996 a series of supercell thunderstorms over the Red River valley collasped after sunset and caused what is called a "heat burst." Our temperatures rose from the low 80s at around 9pm to over 100°F after midnight. We had category 2 hurricane force winds sustained for more than 4 hours. The heat burst caused lots of damage all over town. I didn't have power for 3 days. A great deal of signs were damaged, but we didn't lose any electronic message centers.

quote: William Hooper
You'll see that the most frequent city/county distribution includes less OK & TX, & more MS, AL, &^ other states. The Tornado Alley grouping of frequency attracts the eye, but spot occurrences of equal intensity fall more randomly outside.

Tornadoes can happen anywhere in the United States. But they are far more likely to occur in my region than any place else in the world. We don't get nearly as much rain and thunderstorms as the Gulf Coast, but the fewer thunderstorms here build with more ferocity and carry a higher likelyhood of developing rotation, wall clouds and tornadoes.

That top ten cities hit by F5 twisters can be a bit misleading. Our population is far more spread out here. And the prevailing majority of all tornadoes hit in rural areas. I'll just say the most powerful F5 tornadic storm in recorded history developed right over Lawton May 3, 1999....
...it happened right after I lit one of my farts with a match!
[Big Grin]

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 08-04-2005, 01:00 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I still find that hard to believe for a couple reasons.

AARRRGG! HELLO! HELLO! The battery in Bobby's 2-way must be dead; he can't hear me! I'M HERE, I BEEN HERE, I'm reporting, & I'm a-telling you, that's what they do! Don't live in doubt if you need confirmation; call up the folks at the Saenger or the State Palace in New Orleans & ask! This is not a setup, I didn't tell them to do it, it's what folks do! I don't know the folks at all those other businesses & churches that pull the panels out of their signs when the hurricane comes or who you'd have to talk to to get that information, but you can call those 2 theaters!

quote: Bobby Henderson
A custom sign company with its own crane trucks, full time crews, etc. isn't just going to be waiting around on standby for storm duty. They're already going to have lots of install and service work to do that isn't storm related. They can't just drop all of that to run out and pull out someone's faces and lamps in advance of a storm.

I'll take my turn to say I don't know about that. They easily could; most contractors when a hurricane is approaching STOP new installs & do storm readiness calls.

quote: Bobby Henderson
Wind is another issue. You're not going to be sure a hurricane is going to hit your area until a couple days in advance. By that time you may already have squalls and other winds picking up. It isn't safe to have someone working in a crane basket 40 feet off the ground if the winds are blowing more than 20 or 30 miles per hour.

ARRRGG! WHEN DO YOU THINK THE PLYWOOD GOES UP? That was why I brought up tornadoes! They are different from hurricanes! You have an opportunity to make storm preparations like pulling out the sign panels, putting up plywood, tightening antenna mounts up on the mast, taking down traffic lights, removing from the patio plants, cats & other objects which may become windborne missiles, etc. Tornadoes have almost zero advance warning, & you can't make preparations to minimize damage. Tornadoes have smaller areas which are affected, & for shorter duration.

quote: Bobby Henderson
Also, what will the store operator protect in pulling out sign face panels and changeable letters? Honestly, it is really better to leave the face sections intact. It's a bad thing to have the insides of a sign cabinet blasted directly by rain, debris and other elements -especially if the sign is not built to NEC and UL Listing standards (which is kind of a common thing in the deep south). You also have to factor in the cost of the service call. Crane truck and service crew rentals aren't exactly cheap.

It's easy to understand, lighter damage will wreck the face, so the preparation is made to not have the face wrecked if the damage is lighter!

quote: Bobby Henderson
hurricanes in New Orleans

The last hurricane to hit New Orleans was Betsy in 1965!