Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Non-Sync Radio

This is topic Non-Sync Radio in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001515

Posted by Dane Cash (Member # 2112) on 09-19-2005, 08:11 PM:

Please forgive me if this has been discussed somewhere else, but I searched and didn't find it. Perhaps I didn't search with the right terms. But I was wondering If its legal to play a local radio station as non-sync music? .. I know grocery stores and other businesses do over loudspeakers and such. But I didn't know if there were different laws for a movie theater. Again Sorry if this has been discussed before.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-19-2005, 08:32 PM:

..might get in trouble with ASCAP and BMI with rebroadcasting radio music as non-sync music, and they can post pretty heavy fines if caught if no royalties are being paid.

..yet I've seen many-a-theatres rebroadcast radio stations for the public. Big time risk there.

Grocery Stores and other merchant venues have paid royalties, or using wireless broadcast companies who themselves have paid royalties such as XMRadio and Sirrus, for such broadcasts to BMI and ASCAP for permission, since they are being monitored by checkers of these two music associations.

-Monte

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-19-2005, 08:47 PM:

If you're in a small town, I'd go for it until you get caught.

As a safety net, subscribe to MovieTunes and keep the CD (in player) handy in your booth, that way if the music cops show up, you can tell'em that your projectionist accidentally turned the switch to the wrong position.

PS: I'm not a lawyer and the above should NOT be considered legal or even reliable advice, and was posted for entertainment purposes only, even if it is a good idea (and I'm not saying it is).

Posted by Dane Cash (Member # 2112) on 09-19-2005, 08:47 PM:

Thanks, certainly don't wanna get fined cuz I'm sure they're quite steep. As far as paying royalties goes, would actually paying the radio station be considered that, or would I have to go through ASCAP or BMI? I just hate movietunes and such and would rather have local radio stations that the customers can relate to more than movietunes that plays music that you certainly wouldn't hear on the VMAs. And I don't know much about Sirrus or XM but Perhaps that would be a better choice.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-19-2005, 08:50 PM:

OK, now this is a serious reply.

You can't pay royalties direct to the radio station. You would have to buy a license from ASCAP and BMI (both) in order to play the radio station, legally, in your theatre. I don't know how much those licenses cost but I've heard it's very expensive.

If you subscribe to XM or Sirius, you will pay a monthly fee (I'm not sure about Sirius, but for XM it's $27.95) for a commercial account, and that amount takes care of all your ASCAP and BMI fees.

Posted by Dane Cash (Member # 2112) on 09-19-2005, 08:56 PM:

Thanks for your help. Yeah I do live in a small town, but im not quite willing to be sued or fined heavily cuz of that. And of course competition might actually become smart and realize its against the law, course thats a Big Might .. heh

Posted by Mike Williams (Member # 1140) on 09-20-2005, 03:27 PM:

XM has a subscription package that is designed for businesses. It is a bit more expensive (I think $24 a month) but it takes care of the license issue.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-20-2005, 04:39 PM:

...which I said 3 posts ago. (It's $27.95 a month, which I also said up there.)

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-20-2005, 06:36 PM:

Yes, the XM deal is priced right and, if you can't find suitable program material, you are too choosy. Louis

Posted by Mike Williams (Member # 1140) on 09-20-2005, 08:25 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
...which I said 3 posts ago. (It's $27.95 a month, which I also said up there.)

Sorry Mike.. I must have spaced out.

Posted by Eric Hooper (Member # 1730) on 09-21-2005, 12:30 PM:

A local gym near me just plays the radio over their intercom sound system... There is/was always a fight over the stations.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-21-2005, 02:47 PM:

The BMI and ASCAP people are constantly trying to shut down all playing of radio stations or CDs in public places. They're fighting a losing battle, and the whole thing is complete nonsense.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-21-2005, 02:52 PM:

Agreed with Mike. As long as you aren't advertising the music or selling tickets to listen to music, I don't see what the fuss is about playing the radio in a public space. If anything, the radio stations should be happy about it because it gives them more listeners; ASCAP et al. should also be happy about it because more listeners=more exposure for their music (and likely increased record sales). And hasn't the music already been licensed by the radio station, anyway?

Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 09-21-2005, 10:56 PM:

When I was in the background music business installing sound systems for stores, restaurants, Dr. offices ect...I was involve with ASCAP & BMI...the fine was $2,500.00 per song played over the system while ASCAP/BMI rep. was there listening to it, usually they listen to 10 songs played...but they first come & warn you about their services, if the owner refuse to sign an agreement with ASCAP/BMI, they will warn him again, if still refuse then the fine starts & a court date is held...I been involve as a paid witness to several of these lawsuites...believe me ASCAP & BMI always win !! best bet is to sign with a background music supply company for a low monthly fee & the supplier paid the ASCAP/BMI fees at a flat rate....ASCAP/BMI charges by the seating, people count, how many speakers being play through, & square footage of the building, if signing ASCAP/BMI it can be a expenive ordeal...the way around it is sign up through a local music supplier such as Muzax... now this was 10 yrs ago, maybe it change a bit...

Posted by Dane Cash (Member # 2112) on 09-23-2005, 12:02 AM:

As far as my thinking goes, As Long as you get it ok'ed by the radio stations you want played, then you wouldn't think that ASCAP or BMI could do anything about it. Perhaps if you play a station without their approval then maybe they could fine and whatnot. With all the legal stuff out there 2day, I'm surprised you don't have to have a license to legally breathe air.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-23-2005, 05:17 AM:

The stations pay ASCAP and other for "broadcast rights." Theatres pay for "public performance rights." The station probably WANTS you to tune in their station. However, the rights you are paying for are those of the composer of the music.

25 years ago, it was slightly different; once broadcast, music was thought to be "in the public domain." Not so, now. Louis

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-23-2005, 12:05 PM:

quote: Dane Cash
As far as my thinking goes, As Long as you get it ok'ed by the radio stations you want played, then you wouldn't think that ASCAP or BMI could do anything about it. Perhaps if you play a station without their approval then maybe they could fine and whatnot.

Sorry Dane, your thinking is wrong. The radio station giving permission has nothing to do with it. You'd have to get permission from the artists who are performing on the station. According to the "rules," playing a radio in any public place -- movie theatre, retail store, gas station or whatever -- is considered a "performance" and therefore the artist is supposed to get compensated for it, which is what ASCAP and BMI are all about.

Posted by Dane Cash (Member # 2112) on 09-23-2005, 06:28 PM:

My thinking is always wrong, its something I'm used to .. heh

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-24-2005, 10:23 AM:

XM Radio's Cinemagic channel is a pretty cool idea. If they would just

get rid of the annoying announcers completely
stop with the "source" music (like all the songs in Dirty Dancing, My Girl, etc)
get rid of the movie dialogue lines

it would be PERFECT for background music in theaters. Their score mixes are great.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-24-2005, 06:28 PM:

FYI Cinemagic is presented in 5.1 channel, too. Louis

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 09-28-2005, 03:15 AM:

quote: Dane Cash
As far as my thinking goes, As Long as you get it ok'ed by the radio stations you want played, then you wouldn't think that ASCAP or BMI could do anything about it.

Only if you played a talk radio station. Talk radio stations don't pay ASCAP or BMI fees (if they're careful not to run any music licensed by BMI or ACAP & instead only use beds that are from production libraries bought outright, etc.)

But you just want to run music, & I'd guess that the actual dream would be to run it without the talk & commercials. The music is licensed by BMI & ASCAP. The people who made the music make their living by charging folks to listen to the music, & the licensing companies are their means for marketing it.

Is the idea:
Just running the radio = free music