Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Theater treats kids expecting to see Chicken Little to the wrong movie

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-06-2005, 03:43 PM:

Holy cow! [Eek!]

Talk about a major screw up. In my 15 years in the business, I've threaded the wrong movie before, but this takes the cake...

Link

quote:
A Times Square movie theater laid an egg at a showing of "Chicken Little" last night.

Adults and kids expecting to watch Disney's G-rated animated flick at the AMC Empire 25 theater on 42nd St. were instead presented with a foreign film that opened with a young man committing suicide.

"It's pandemonium," Joshua Gallo, 30, told the Daily News as he rushed out of the theater with his 5-year-old son and 1-year-old daughter. "The kids are crying. The mothers are screaming for the managers to stop the film."

Terrified children didn't know what to do as they watched a young boy hang himself from a tree at the 8:45 p.m. screening.

After five minutes, "Andrea," a Spanish drama opening today, was turned off and "Chicken Little" was played.

Patrons got a coupon for a free movie.

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 11-06-2005, 04:24 PM:

There is no excuse for threading the wrong movie. I terminated for this once ... they started "Scary Movie 2" instead of "Shrek 2".

Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 11-06-2005, 04:32 PM:

I worked at a theatre where they started Basic Instinct instead of Beauty and the Beast.

Chaos insued.

Posted by Amanda Jones (Member # 3326) on 11-06-2005, 05:01 PM:

Yeah I woke up this morning and quickly ran to the phone because I forgot to do print moves before I left last night. Luckily they noticed it this morning. Would have hated to see when we started Saw II instead of Chicken Little.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-06-2005, 05:16 PM:

quote: Mike Spaeth
There is no excuse for threading the wrong movie.

Maybe not in an ideal setup, but when you work in a theater where the GM likes to change the theaters around in the middle of the day, and you end up with conflicting copies of performance schedules laying around when you come in for the night shift, and no one bothered to leave any notes, .... well, all bets are off. I'm not making excuses for this particular situation, but that happened to me. You also have situations like this occur when the ushers "forget" to move the signs around when movies change houses.

quote: Matt Fields
I worked at a theatre where they started Basic Instinct instead of Beauty and the Beast.

That sounds familiar. If that wasn't a theater that I'm familiar with, I definitely heard that before.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 11-06-2005, 05:27 PM:

I have seen people fired over this before. People do make mistakes. This one would be a doozy.

/rant on/

However, I will ask the obvious question. Why would someone book a hard "R" and a soft "G" film in the same auditorium?Knowing full well that an 18 year old making $7.XX an hour will not pay too much attention to what film they are threading?

I think it is a two fold problem. These two types of films should not be booked together. If the industry is going to book like the theatres are professionally run - then the theatres should be professionally run by operators getting paid a decent wage. AND NO - I don't think the AMC Empire 25 has a union projectionist running around up there.

/rant off/

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-06-2005, 05:51 PM:

I think the propblem is booth staff that don't check the title of what they thread up before they pres "play "
many theatres do prints moves based on seating capacity requirements or split bookings through out the course of a day and if that is the way the theatre chooses to run then the booth staff should get with the plan and take the correct precautions

Posted by Robert Harrison (Member # 3202) on 11-06-2005, 05:58 PM:

We had something similar back in the 80s, when the old fellow who was projectionist at that time made a changeover from the first 6000' reel of some kids movie (back in the days of SATURDAY & SUNDAY MATINEES ONLY for some features) to the middle (second 6000' foot reel) of "An Officer and a Gentleman." And what scene was it but the nude love scene between Richard Gere and Debra Winger!

That guy made a lot of mistakes, but the union would never replace him. Finally, we got out of the contract on some yearly gross technicality.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 11-06-2005, 06:27 PM:

I remember a time years ago at one of the old theatres I used to work at. We had 6000' reel to reel operations in two of the auditoriums. One of them was playing a matinee and evening double up. The Rescuers and Scarface....you guessed it....Rescuers changed over to one of the reels for Scarface so everyone was smacked in the face with "Fuck you motherfucker, you die" People came running out from everywhere.

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 11-06-2005, 07:38 PM:

You think the operator would have noticed this one in the trailers - even if they didn't check the name on the print...

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-06-2005, 07:52 PM:

This booking "problem" is caused by the fact that Disney does well in the day/"R's" do well ay night. Therefore; they tend to split the house: R vs Disney. Can't YOU see this problem coming? Louis (Color code the print leader: RED equals check everything before pushing start.)

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-06-2005, 07:59 PM:

AMC Empire 25: "Set It and Forget It!" [Razz]

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 11-06-2005, 08:09 PM:

quote: Jim Ziegler
You think the operator would have noticed this one in the trailers - even if they didn't check the name on the print...

But when your a single projectionist at a 15-20 plex, you really dont have the time to sit and watch the previews. I am in full agreement that "R" and "G" movies shouldnt be in the same house. Mistakes happen....

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-06-2005, 08:12 PM:

With tens of thousands of shows every day, and prints being moved around, the only surprising thing is this doesn't happen more often. I bet whoever threaded up that movie at AMC Empire 25 felt pretty bad about it.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-06-2005, 08:39 PM:

quote: Frank Dubrois
But when your a single projectionist at a 15-20 plex, you really dont have the time to sit and watch the previews.

Not only that BUT many theaters are still running rolling stock ads as the first thing that hits the screen and you can't always judge by those either. Furthermore, a PG trailer could be on an R movie as well as that Disney movie.

A policy of mine that works very well is on double up screens with platters that have removable brains was to take one brain and put it on the floor below the platter and that brain was "off limits" for that week as a booth policy. This way when the projectionist went to thread that screen, if he HAD to move the brain to thread the next show, it was a wakeup signal "hey buddy, there's TWO movies playing in this auditorium - check your schedule". Once that policy was implemented, the problem of threading the wrong movie stopped. It really does work very well and is sort of along the same line as storing the dts disc for the movie not running inside the center ring where the brain would sit. That then REQUIRED the projectionist to pick up the disc in order to be able to mount the brain so he could thread and served as a reminder to swap the discs.

Simple policies like this if strictly enforced DO put an end to silly goofs like this.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-06-2005, 09:03 PM:

..I guess that marking the end of the print with the show title and showtimes with masking tape or that artists tape didn't work too well... - in which we do all the time to teach people to read the showtitle and pay attention to the showtimes on the film itself, in as well on the schedule posted on the console.

Another goof is, okey you got the shows playing the right schedule, but did you switch the discs, if both are in DTS, since once in a while a data bit on one CD will be the same as the other movie and some nasty words can come out of Chicken littles mouth due to the other set of discs were left in the players.

-Monte

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 11-06-2005, 09:29 PM:

Monte said:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Another goof is, okey you got the shows playing the right schedule, but did you switch the discs, if both are in DTS, since once in a while a data bit on one CD will be the same as the other movie and some nasty words can come out of Chicken littles mouth due to the other set of discs were left in the players.

I think it would take more than a single data bit to utter the wrong word from a DTS system. I would say that there are checksums involved in reading the timecode that would prevent that.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-06-2005, 09:37 PM:

frank said "But when your a single projectionist at a 15-20 plex, you really dont have the time to sit and watch the previews. I am in full agreement that "R" and "G" movies shouldnt be in the same house. Mistakes happen.... "

I think one forgets the point the print should have been labled on the visable tail section
The operator should have checked it
It was still in my opinion a unforgivable mistake again booking policy should not be controled by the booth routine but the otherway around and if the operator can't handle the heat then get out of the kitchen

Posted by Stephen LaPadula (Member # 3050) on 11-06-2005, 09:53 PM:

quote: Dennis Benjamin
If the industry is going to book like the theatres are professionally run - then the theatres should be professionally run by operators getting paid a decent wage. AND NO - I don't think the AMC Empire 25 has a union projectionist running around up there.

Dave,

Your right. The Empire does not have a Union Proj running around up there....they have 2 at all times, making more than $25.00 an hour.

heres my rant...

Now sure everyone makes mistakes, but if your making that kind of money, and because Union guys are professional and perfect, and rip theatre chains for putting 'kids' in a professional job, than you can't afford to mess up like that.

Its no wonder these companies want the Union jobs cut. They can pay someone 1/3 of that and will still be taking the same chance of a screw up.

rant off

For the record, out of 250 people in that theatre only about 12 actually complained. Leave it to a b.s. NY newspaper to hype things up. The one person that did throw a fit ironically was by himself, without kids, and called the Daily News from the theatre lobby.

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 11-06-2005, 10:21 PM:

Gordon, your right, it is a mistake that shouldnt have happened, but it did. If that projectionist makes that mistake again, I think it would be time to re-asses his worthiness as a projectionist. If he has any downstairs skills, perhaps a move back downstairs would be in order. I do firmly beleive that putting a "R" movie in the same house as a "G" movie is just inviting this kind of problem.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-06-2005, 10:37 PM:

quote: Paul Konen
I think it would take more than a single data bit to utter the wrong word from a DTS system.

...LOL - give you a good example: At my 14 plex that I was presentation manager/company engineer at, we had a house with the classic Disney/"R"double,(can't remember the title for the "R", but the Disney was "Emperor's new Groove") and these shows alternated instead of the Disney being the matinee and the "R" for the night.

The "R" was a potty-mouth "R" movie, and the matinee operator forgot to swap discs and left the "R" discs in the drive with "Emperor" playing. Sure enough, the character in "Emperor" began to utter "F" words out like nobody's business! Talk about pandimonium that day. Customers came out left and right hollering to anyone who was in uniform, including the manager, on why this Disney had bad language encoded in the movie.

I immediately got called by the manager who was about ready to throttle me out of the business and told me to get down at the theatre on the double and get this situation solved out.

Course, right off, I knew what had happened, but had to get at the theatre to really found out. Sure enough, go to that console to the 6AD unit and found those "R" discs in the drive while the Disney was playing.

I bounced all over the matinee operator and gave him a written warning on making sure that the right discs are inserted in the drives for the right show and to pay attention to his operations or he'd be back downstairs shoveling popcorn for good.

I told the manager on what happened is that the timecoding on the film CAN match ANY discs in the drives and there isn't any checksum method to isolate discs to match the movies. It all depends on the awareness of the operator.

..and last week, it happened again, but of course not there, but where I'm working now at a discount house-wrong discs in the drives, and a woman's voice came out instead of the action scene music and sound effects that was supposed to be on the screen.

It's a thing to watch out for...

quote: Amanda Jones
"I forgot to do print moves before I left last night..."

HUH? How could one forget to do print moves? Isn't this a mandantory procedure for the Thursday night people to do so the Friday's people are all ready to start the next day right?

Is this a good case of the classic "wanting to get the frik out of there when day is done" - like clowns using opaque tape to do their splices with so they can break the films down faster and more easier?

Sorry, Amanda - not to pick on you, since we do goof up once in a while, just that we should always have things ready for the next day's business so the finger doesn't get pointed backwards on the ones of the day before.

- Monte

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-06-2005, 11:07 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
timecoding on the film CAN match ANY discs in the drives and there isn't any checksum method to isolate discs to match the movies

Isn't there individual title encoding on these discs? I thought that if the wrong discs were loaded, only the film's analog optical track played back. (Wasn't that protection system added really fast after Jurassic Park in 1993)?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-06-2005, 11:25 PM:

True. Basically, wrong disc will send the system to optical since no timecode is present to match up with the discs, but the reader is still sending timecode info to the system and, once in a while, a timecode section (which is like the "zebrastripe" on a item, but only per each frame) on the film will match up to the disc and "BINGO", info sent from the disc to cache for playback and system switches over to DTS to playback from that cache.

I'm sure that once in a while, that a certain "zebrastripe" will be duplicated down the road for another disc, but the odds are tremendous for this to happen...but it DOES, and CAN happen.

Few ways of completely preventing this is: 1-don't thread through the reader, 2-turn DTS unit off, and the obvious 3-"PLEASE", make sure that you have the correct discs IN the drives.

-Monte

Posted by Amanda Jones (Member # 3326) on 11-07-2005, 05:59 AM:

Actually it was Saturday night. We had Chicken Little playing in a big house in the afternoon and Saw II playing in a moderate house in the afternoon and they flip flopped during the night show and then needed to be switched back for Sunday afternoon.

It's no excuse but I was being rushed by my other closing manager who wanted to get to the bar.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-07-2005, 07:22 AM:

Do we know that this was the operator's fault? I did this once (interchanged "Princess Diaries" and "Rock Star") because I was given an early revision of a schedule which had since changed. The two films were supposed to swap houses for the late shows, but it was later decided that this wasn't necessary, but I wasn't told. The problem was corrected in about five minutes, despite the manager's screaming at me.

If the schedule is correct, though, there's no excuse for this. A note taped to the port glass would save lots of complaints.

Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 11-07-2005, 08:01 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
Simple policies like this if strictly enforced DO put an end to silly goofs like this.

Amen. Although I heard there's a new "digital" method being developed where the projectionist is given an electric shock if they attempt to start the wrong movie. It costs 50 grand to implement per screen, but it allows you to staff a booth for 2 bananas an hour.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-07-2005, 01:14 PM:

I'm amazed that the AMC theatre is being allowed to book some R-rated film on the same screen with Chicken Little. Disney is notorious for not allowing screen-sharing, at least in the early weeks of the run.

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 11-07-2005, 04:27 PM:

When you get into 3rd and 4th prints, you can often double on the first week ...

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 11-07-2005, 05:12 PM:

quote: Mike Spaeth
There is no excuse for threading the wrong movie. I terminated for this once ... they started "Scary Movie 2" instead of "Shrek 2".

By that logic there is no excuse for any mistake in any field of endeavour.

Showing the wrong movie is a cock up, sure, but its not actually the end of the world. If it were, then you (as manager and ultimately responsible) would have procedures in place appropriate to the level of risk and damage, which would prevent such a catastrophe occuring. If anyone is gonna get fired, the manager should be first in the list, for failing to implement appropriate control mechanisms.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 11-07-2005, 05:46 PM:

Who's Dave?

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 11-07-2005, 09:15 PM:

I threaded the wrong feature once (he says with a red face). We were running two features in the same auditorium (a 10-plex) at the beginning of a new week and the correct features was under a platter cover on the bottom platter. It was the first show of the day. Another manager came up to the booth to help me find the film and neither of us saw it. The GM (who had moved the print the night before an put the cover over it to keep us from putting the wrong feature on the night before) came up, found it and threaded it.

Posted by Allison Parsons (Member # 2728) on 11-07-2005, 11:54 PM:

Did anyone watch Keith Oberman on MSNBC tonight?! His daily 3 worst people in the world came on....and the projectionist from that AMC theater was number one. I got a laugh out of it.

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 11-08-2005, 12:53 AM:

quote: David Buckley
By that logic there is no excuse for any mistake in any field of endeavour.

Showing the wrong movie is a cock up, sure, but its not actually the end of the world. If it were, then you (as manager and ultimately responsible) would have procedures in place appropriate to the level of risk and damage, which would prevent such a catastrophe occuring. If anyone is gonna get fired, the manager should be first in the list, for failing to implement appropriate control mechanisms.

Running the building is the responsibility of the manager, and part of that responsibility is providing consequences for those that screw up. There is a screw-up ... and there is a situation that greatly contributes to customer dissatisfaction ... like it or not ... starting the "R" instead of the "G" ... especially one where a girl starts urinating on the floor during an opening scene is a SERIOUS offense ... probably on about the same level as a concessionist cursing out a customer. I would fire the concessionist as well ... though I should probably fire the manager because it was his responsibility for making sure that the concessionist didn't respond poorly in any situation. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 11-08-2005, 01:33 AM:

So you'd fire someone for threading the wrong movie once? Even though it was the manager putting some disgusting R flick with a Disney G flick which actually allowed this to happen? Give a child a gun, box of bullets, and a little time, and he'll figure out what to do. It was bad, but it isnt bad enough to fire someone over unless it becomes a trend.

Posted by Allison Parsons (Member # 2728) on 11-08-2005, 01:45 AM:

Here's a question for you all:

If you had Chicken Little in one theater, and the theater across from it had Saw 2(mind you, when you walk out of Chicken Litttle's theater, you can see in the port window of Saw 2's theater)...Do you black out Saw 2's windows just for the sake of possibly the kiddies seeing something that they shouldn't?

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 11-08-2005, 02:24 AM:

quote: Frank Dubrois
Even though it was the manager putting some disgusting R flick with a Disney G flick which actually allowed this to happen?

Last time I checked ... the bookers make these decisions ... not the managers...

Posted by Robert John Jeromson (Member # 2559) on 11-08-2005, 04:18 AM:

quote: Mike Spaeth
like it or not ... starting the "R" instead of the "G" ... especially one where a girl starts urinating on the floor during an opening scene is a SERIOUS offense ...

And as it happens in countries such as New Zealand illegal, our classification systems make it punishable by significant fine for a cinema complex to allow exhibition of restricted material to under age patrons, and yet it happens, just last weekend I heard a story of a cinema complex exhibiting Deuce Bigalow 2 instead of Wallace and Gromit (or something like it).

Posted by Wolff King Morrow (Member # 2226) on 11-08-2005, 06:13 AM:

quote: Mike Spaeth
Last time I checked ... the bookers make these decisions ... not the managers...

Then your problem is with the bookers. Firing someone for an honest mistake on the first offense is likely to make you a lot of enemies. You might even risk physical altercations with that attitude.

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 11-08-2005, 06:18 AM:

quote: David Buckley
If anyone is gonna get fired, the manager should be first in the list, for failing to implement appropriate control mechanisms.

Because we all know that union contracts allow maximum control of the booth by management....

Come on.. First the attempt is made by Mr. Benjamin to "pin" this on non-union operators. When it is revealed that AMC Empire 25 (one of the busiest theatres in the U.S.) IS a union shop, then its time to blame the managers? Folks, an IATSE membership does not confer on its holder any god like status or divine powers. Since union contracts in almost all cases limit management control over the both (some SIGNIFIGANTLY limit that control), trying to blame management is completely absurd. A union card is nothing more than paper. Its holder is subject to the same human tendancy to screw up as people who don't have one of those cards.

quote: Frank Dubrois
Even though it was the manager putting some disgusting R flick with a Disney G flick which actually allowed this to happen?

Your GM gets to book his own theatre? Again... Lets blame the manager... Damn evil managers....

quote: Robert John Jeromson
And as it happens in countries such as New Zealand illegal, our classification systems make it punishable by significant fine for a cinema complex to allow exhibition of restricted material to under age patrons, and yet it happens, just last weekend I heard a story of a cinema complex exhibiting Deuce Bigalow 2 instead of Wallace and Gromit (or something like it).

Wouldn't criminal intent come in to play here. Even if the U.S. had such laws, an accident would generally not lead to prosecution unless negligance was specifically part of the statute.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 11-08-2005, 08:04 AM:

We are professionals running a business that used to be totally run by professionals. We must be sure beyond a doubt that things are done RIGHT in our theatres. Properly labeled films and DTS discs is the beginning.

Not moving prints because of being in a hurry to get to the bar? Thats a way to get tossed at my theatre!

Accidents do happen, but as professionals, we must do everything to be sure that they dont happen.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-08-2005, 09:16 AM:

quote: Frank Dubrois Even though it was the manager putting some disgusting R flick with a Disney G flick which actually allowed this to happen?
actually the manager or booker can book and schedule anyway they want and it is the projectionist job to provie that service or seek alternate employment if they can't do the job
Also Ontario also has severe legal penalties for exhibiting a restricted picture to an underage audience and it is the theatres responsibility to see it doesn't happen mistakes do stand up to preclude prosectution for theatres have been fined as for just this issue of a mistake

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-08-2005, 09:37 AM:

I got as far as putting the wrong reel on a machine once, but spotted my mistake before lacing it up. One of the first things I do when I arrive for a shift is to check that I have all of the film that I'm going to need that day. I put the reels in the rack in the order that I'm going to need them, though some of them may change order during the day, if the same film is being shown more than once.

I never rely on my memory as to which film is being shown when; I always check the printed schedule before taking any film from the rack. Other than the first show of the day, the next reel that I need will normally be the next one in the rack, next to the gap where the last one came out. I check the label on the reel head is correct before I take it to the machine, I check it again against the schedule before lacing up, which may be several minutes later, depending on what else I am doing at the time. As I bring the film down to the numbered leader to lace up I also check the printed title and part number on the leader with a mini Maglight torch, I have known a written label to be put on the wrong reel.

If the print has been made up by somebody else, and has not been previously screened, and the leader has been cut and spliced back, I check on the bench that the BBFC certificate at the start of the film matches the title on the leader. If somebody had put both the leader and the certificate on the wrong print, then I would probably get caught out, but that's unlikely. If I was making up the print then I would obviously check this myself while doing so.

We all make mistakes; some of you may remember that I made a pretty bad one a year or so ago, but I think it's unlikely that I'd run the wrong film; I'd have to make the same mistake several times for it to slip through unnoticed.

quote: Scott Norwood
Do we know that this was the operator's fault? I did this once (interchanged "Princess Diaries" and "Rock Star") because I was given an early revision of a schedule which had since changed.

There's a good chance that a projectionist would spot this; in most, not all, cinemas you can see a fair part of the auditoria from the box; if you see that most of the audience are young children, and the schedule shows what is obviously an adult film in that slot, then a call to the manager would be in order. Of course, if the auditorium cannot be seen, or if the all of the audience are sitting in parts of it which cannot be seen, then this is not possible.

quote: Mike Spaeth
like it or not ... starting the "R" instead of the "G" ... especially one where a girl starts urinating on the floor during an opening scene is a SERIOUS offense

I've never seen this film, clearly you shouldn't be showing a film to the wrong age group, but one with an opening scene where 'a girl starts urinating on the floor' doesn't sound too bad; it's not like one with guts all over the floor, or extreme bad language, is it? There are plenty of worse things that could have been in it, some of the scenes in 'Passion of the Christ', for example, or the version of 'Carmen' which I ran once, which had some pretty gorey bullfighting scenes at the beginning. That one actually got a surprisingly low certificate, a 'PG' I think it was.

If the projectionist had not already seen the problem, and stopped the film, then the manager, or floor staff, should have called to report it. Once this had been done, the projectionist should be left alone to sort it out. If youre' trying to sort out a problem then the last thing you need is the 'phone ringing every few seconds. When the projectionist is not busy then the manaager should ask for an explaination of what happened. If it was an error by the projectionist, and the first time it had happened, then a warning to be more careful in future would seem to be in order. I don't think it should be grounds for dismissal, unless it happened repeatedly, though if the explaination given was 'I thought I'd stick the wrong one on, just for a larf like', then that would probably be considered gross misconduct, and would be grounds for dismissal without further warning. That would be unlikely to happen though.

If a projectionist is so busy that they really do not have time to check properly that they are running the correct film then the cinema is seriously understaffed, and that is a management issue.

Personally, I think there should be a projectionist standing by the machine for a few minutes before the show time, throughout the adverts and trailers, and for at least the first two or three minutes of the feature. If running changeovers then I think they should also be there for the same time at the start of each reel, whether the changeover is automatic or mauual. When running a subtitled film I also wait until I have seen the first few subtitles before leaving the machine. If this is not possible, then I think the cinema is understaffed. I watch the auditorium for about three minutes before the advertised show time, looking out for any reason to hold the start; things like a customer in a wheelchair arriving at the last minute, and a seat having to be removed for them, or an infirm person needing assisstance. I would say about one show in four or five has to be held for something of this sort. How do you deal with this situation if you start a show on timers, with no projectionist present? Do you have a 'Hold' button downstairs that a member of staff can use in this situation?

On machines with doors I leave the door open, and on Kinotons with single lens holders I leave the small light shield on the holder back, until I have done the final check of everything, and nothing else at all needs to be done before the start button is presse; If I see a door open, or a shield back, then it reminds me that the machine is not ready to go.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 11-08-2005, 09:42 AM:

Do many cinemas have schedule sheets next to each screen (with the shows in that screen highlighted) or do most rely on a copy of the showtimes in the projectionists pocket or the automation control system?

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 11-08-2005, 10:24 AM:

When I was based in Los Angeles we would do these types of screenings. When we would have a special screening or preview the Studio would buy the house and pay for the extra projectionist to run that and only that screen. That projectionist would make a Studio Call (8 hours at Studio Projectionist rate) for that screening. But the studios are cutting costs on screenings too. AMC Empire 25 had a recent screening of "Rent" on two screens. I got both the showprint and back-up for a screening this last Sunday. One print was put back right and the other had to have been done fast & messy. I've been to that theatre many times to see films and the only time I've ever had a problem. Was them running SDDS tracks with zebra tape and the dropouts in sound. Over at the LOEWS State Theatre in Times Square, they threaded the wrong film for the show. They did it twice in two weeks. They had a childrens features during the day and an "R" rated feature at night. They threaded the kids film up and when I went out to get an usher he said I was in the wrong auditorium. Then I walked him to the problemed theatre to show him. Then he ran into the booth to fix it.
Unless the guy over at the AMC Empire has had a bad record and many problems. What will most likely happen is the business agent from Local 306 will hear both sides of the story. The Business Agent will give a talking too, to the operator. The company will write him or her up for their files. And the operator will by running more film at the AMC Empire 25 again.

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 11-08-2005, 11:02 AM:

ahh this all reminded me of taking my little brother to a screening of "The Wizard" where the projectionist ended up starting "Look Who's Talking" instead.. There were many bewildered kids in the audience that day.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-08-2005, 12:07 PM:

Many times when I was working as a projectionist I would follow exactly what the manager gave me on that piece of paper (the schedule) and he/she would've printed out the wrong date (usually "yesterday's schedule) and a wrong movie would be started in the wrong house or at the wrong time...but not according to the piece of paper I was given!

So yeah Mike is definitely right. Even a manager who has ran a spectacular theater for many years with the best numbers in the chain should be fired right then and there.

Come on Mike be realistic. EVERYONE makes a mistake here and there, and managers are far from infallible.

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 11-08-2005, 01:59 PM:

I think a key point can be taken from the debate here. There is a difference between an honest mistake, and a mistake made because one is lazy or incompetent.

While not a minimal mistake, starting the wrong movie is not overtly fire able offense IMHO. Sure if the person has a track record of other mistakes, then maybe their placement in the the projection booth should be evaluated. But would you REALLY fire a stellar employee based on ONE mistake?

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 11-08-2005, 02:02 PM:

I never advocated the firing of a manager over something like that ... just simply stated that I had termed a projectionist once ... and that termination had to do more with his attitude toward the problem ... Oh well, shit happens, basically.

I can see where things would get confusing with a busy complex moving prints in the middle of a day ... but that's never been a situation I've been in ... I've only had one instance where mid-week house placements needed to be changed (after Friday night).

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 11-08-2005, 04:02 PM:

it soulds like this is a common mistake for the Empire from what a previous poster said. In which case, this guy should go. He has exposed AMC to legal liability in this from some parents claim that this mistake tramatized their kid.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 11-08-2005, 04:40 PM:

From rereading this thread about mistakes. Only maybe two people have posted in this thread that have been to this theatre.

quote: Jim Ziegler
it soulds like this is a common mistake for the Empire from what a previous poster said.

Myself being one of the people that has been to this theatre. My last post talked about the Loews State Theatre where I had two wrong thread-ups when I went to the movies. So people do make mistakes in threading, but I never said the Empire had that problem before.

quote: Bill Gabel
Over at the LOEWS State Theatre in Times Square, they threaded the wrong film for the show. They did it twice in two weeks.

Unless that Union operator has had a bad job record, what he might get is a slap of the hand. And just asked to pay more attention to his work by the Business Agent. Unless the Business Agent does not like him and wants to hang him out to dry. And put one of his friends into the job.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-09-2005, 12:38 AM:

quote: Jim Ziegler
some parents claim that this mistake tramatized their kid

Some parents also are sue happy and want to profit off of what was in all probability an honest mistake. People suck.

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 11-09-2005, 05:59 AM:

That they do... Give someone a reason to sue a corporation and they will jump to it.. That is the effect of $100 million judgements when the stupid spill coffee on themselves.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-09-2005, 09:10 AM:

quote: Mike Spaeth
Last time I checked ... the bookers make these decisions ... not the managers...

The bookers don't decide which theaters the movies go in, the managers decided that. The bookers just decide that two features are booked together. The manager could easily flip another "R" rated movie into that auditorium if he/she wanted.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 11-09-2005, 09:52 AM:

Both answers are correct. It sometimes depends on the market you are in. Because in the First-Run market of Los Angeles. The booker/home office decides what screen it goes on. In certain plexes the studio wants that large screen or auditorium. And if they can't get that auditorium they buy-out the house. So the other studio does not loss the money and they move their screening in and drop the a show or shows from the studio that needs the room. We did this many times with screenings. The booker makes the deal with the studio. The manager are advised to the changes from the home office/booking department in that market.

Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 11-09-2005, 01:45 PM:

I looked at the Empire 25's showtimes, and "Andrea" has four shows a day. It is not doubled up with Chicken Little. Of course, it could have been on the day of the incident.

While working in Union and non-union booths, I have had the wrong film on screen a ridiculous number of times due to management changing placements during the day and not telling the booth. I've had situations where management had me move prints but they still sent the customers to the original auditoriums. Then they yelled at me and made me unthread and switch the prints back. And there's a lot more I could write here.

On the other side of the coin, I've also known union operators who threaded wrong shows because they couldn't be bothered to pay attention to what they were doing.

I personally know nothing about the Empire 25 so I'm not sure who's at fault.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-09-2005, 01:59 PM:

You can't go by the showtimes. It could be set up like this:

House 1 (Big seat count)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Chicken Little 1:00
Chicken Little 4:00
Andrea 7:00
Andrea 10:00

House 2 (Small seat count)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Andrea 1:00
Andrea 4:00
Chicken Little 7:00
Chicken Little 10:00

Posted by Amanda Jones (Member # 3326) on 11-09-2005, 02:05 PM:

quote: Mark Hajducki
Do many cinemas have schedule sheets next to each screen (with the shows in that screen highlighted) or do most rely on a copy of the showtimes in the projectionists pocket or the automation control system?

We type up "boards" each projector gets a sheet of paper listing the movie showing in that house for the week/the show time/weather it is scope or flat and the run time. If we do print moves the board goes with the print. Also the night projectionist knows to print out a new projection schedule when they clock in and not use the matinee person's sheet in case any changes were made. We also have multiple print check lists. Anytime we have more than one movie playing in a theater we put up that sheet by the projector and the projectionist signs off stating they threaded and started the correct movie.

Today marks my 8th anniversary in the movie theater business and in those 8 years I've only started the wrong movie once. I started Run Tel Dat once instead of Barbershop. Didn't realize my mistake until 100 angry people come storming out of the theater demanding answers as to why their movie wasn't playing. Thread the wrong movie and start it once you quickly learn not to do it again, at least I have.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 11-09-2005, 03:27 PM:

A guy I know was supposed to show Chicken Run, but threaded up and ran Shaft. The moms went crazy. He was let go.

Posted by Eric Hooper (Member # 1730) on 11-09-2005, 03:34 PM:

I love how in the olden days they would show double features of like Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Bambi. Most notable one I remember was at GCC Southland in Hayward: House (R) and Back To The Future (PG).

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-09-2005, 03:52 PM:

That reminds me of a lady that literally screamed at me (while I did my best not to laugh), "Why wouldn't you run the sex movie last?!", when I ran 40 Year Old Vigin as the second feature in a triple bill.

Meanwhile, on planet earth where her kids had to be at least 12 years old, the three features were actually run in order of rating (and what we were paying for them).

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-09-2005, 07:30 PM:

At Cinemark where I used to work, there was a manager who thought he could save on payroll by having the projectionist come in an hour after the first shows started. *HE* would be the one to thread and start the first round of movies. The projectionist would come in only when the first round started dropping. He figured he could save the company, oh, $70.00 per week or so!

Well, on the VERY FIRST DAY of his new policy, he was supposed to show "Hercules" to a theater full of Moms and their kids. However, he didn't read the label on the print and ended up playing "American Pie"!! He didn't notice the problem until one of the Moms came out and reamed him a new one!

By that time everyone had been treated to the opening scene. You know... The one where the kid is spanking the monkey into an old gym sock while watching scrambled porno channels on TV!

I got to work just in time to help him figure out how to stop the projector, unthread the wrong film and rethread the correct one.

Needless to say, that new "Money-Saving Policy" only lasted one day! [evil]

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-09-2005, 10:32 PM:

Wonder how much money he lost the company in re-admits (assuming he was decent enough to give them out) and a depleted customer base.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-09-2005, 11:43 PM:

I have always been O.C.D. about putting labels on prints. I always write the print title in 1" block letters on white tape and stick the label to the print.

A lot of people write the name of the movie in small letters but my policy is to put lables you can read from 10 feet away and in the dark.

Those prints of "American Pie" and "Hercules" were BOTH labeled with letters you could read from 10 feet way in the dark. There was no excuse!

It was on a Saturday morning when he did that. The place was full. At that time the policy was to give two passes to customers who were REALLY pissed off. He probably handed out over 100 passes that day!

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-10-2005, 07:39 AM:

Well, I'm finishing my proper job in a few minutes, and going off to do a projection shift; about 15 1/2 hours total today, 7:30 a.m. till midnight at the proper job on Tuesday. Wish me luck; I'll try to put the right films on. [Smile]

Posted by Patrick Dunn (Member # 3333) on 11-12-2005, 07:03 PM:

I have not yet threaded the wrong print, but i came close last weekend when i had one playing than the other right after it. and once i came close to threading the rocky horror picture show because we usualy leave that on the bottom platter but somone forgot to put it back, but the good thing is i noticed it before i took the ring out.

Posted by Allison Parsons (Member # 2728) on 11-13-2005, 01:00 AM:

I've threaded the wrong print before (caught it as soon as the previews started)
I've threaded soundtrack in before
I've forgotten to change the lens between splits before
I've forgotten to change the DTS disk after we previewed a print before
I've missed spliced trailer rings wrong before
I've done plenty of things wrong before and I'm not affraid to admit my past mistakes! [Smile]

I'm hear to wave my "Yeah, I've done that before by mistake" flag! The phrase "You learn from your mistakes" has helped me quite a bit.

Have a let a movie run with the fail safe stuck in the up position? NO! That I can proudly say I have not.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-13-2005, 02:00 AM:

quote: Allison Parsons
Have a let a movie run with the fail safe stuck in the up position? NO! That I can proudly say I have not.

.....yet..... [Wink]

There's always a first time for everything..trust me. You're young and you've got a whole world ahead of you still in this crazy business. It'll happen.

-Monte

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-13-2005, 02:43 AM:

One of the things running repertory and festivals where you have a dozen prints in the booth and you could be running a schedule of multiple titles in a single day, or when you run double bills and the order is switched in the middle of the day in order to get the "A" title run one more time than the "B" title, you get in the habit of checking the title against the schedule triple time. Rep guys have got to be as anal about not threating the wrong title as you automated guys have to be about never being out of frame.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-13-2005, 05:26 AM:

Frank, I think you're right; you've posted almost what I was about to say. I'll typically have four to six prints in at a time, for a single screen, there will usually be two or three different films running during the day, four is not that uncommon; five is very unusual, but not unknown. There were four yesterday, a private hire on video in the morning, children's film in the early afternoon, and three shows with two different films alternating later in the day.

Almost all films will be on more than one spool. If the children's film is on 5x2ks, and three adult films are on 2x6ks, plus another print not running that day on 2x6k, plus the adverts and trailers on another spool, that could easily be 14 spools in the box at the time. Places doing festivals, or running everything on 2ks, or running separate sound could have far more than that. You just check everything very carefully; it wouldn't occur to you not to.

Now, I've never run DTS, but maybe one day I'll have to. I think it's quite possible that I'd forget to put the right discs in; it's just not something that I'm used to doing, so I could easily forget to check it. Maybe the guy that made this mistake is just not used to having more than one film in a screen at the same time. If they were working on platters he's probably only got a choice of two, but if that's one more than he normally has, maybe he just didn't think to check.

Posted by Patrick Dunn (Member # 3333) on 11-13-2005, 06:19 PM:

I'm only used to having one print on a platter system at a time except for the one theater we have the rocky horror picture show but we usually keep that on the bottom platter, and you can tell if your about to thread that up since the print is so old. but i know of 2 times that was threaded accidently but once you start that you know to shut it down right away.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-13-2005, 09:01 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
Rep guys have got to be as anal about not threating the wrong title as you automated guys have to be about never being out of frame.

So you never give it a thought?

Posted by Alexander Smith (Member # 1769) on 11-14-2005, 06:09 AM:

Like my fellow FT'ers, I have threaded the wrong show on occasion. On rarer occasions I have even allowed that show to start. Rarer still is when the adverts and trailers have run through, and then stopping the show and changing it.

[ One of the stupid things that has happened is the wrong show has been threaded, but there are no viewers, and no need to interfere with it. Unless it will finish _after_ the next show is due to start. ]

One of the things I think is a good idea to have is a "Lace Up Checklist", because it forces the projectionist to query what show they are running.

We use something like this:

http://homepages.tesco.net/alx.smith/projection/LaceCheck_generic.pdf

It is in the folder of webspace where my projection pages are, but it isn't linked to from any page yet. Please help yourself to a copy of that check-list if you need it.

Alex.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 11-26-2005, 04:51 PM:

quote: Stephen LaPadula
Your right. The Empire does not have a Union Proj running around up there....they have 2 at all times, making more than $25.00 an hour.

$25 an hour is $52,000 a year assuming one gets paid for all days off. That's $35K after taxes. Unless you're a student living at home, you can't live very well in NYC on that wage. That may be decent money in some places in the country, but it's not really very good money in NYC. You can't pay a mortgage making that kind of money and there is barely any rental property left in NYC.

That doesn't excuse screwing up in the booth, but when you have only 1 (or even 2) projectionists for 25 screens, you can expect mistakes to happen. I'd be willing to bet the Empire 25 has at least 25 people at any given time behind the candy counters.

I attend the Empire 25 quite often. It's not perfect and some screens are far better than others, but the quality of projection has generally been quite good. I have never experienced a major screw-up there.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-27-2005, 12:19 AM:

It'll allow you to live at least twice as well as non-union projectionists.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 11-27-2005, 03:34 AM:

quote: Allison Parsons
If you had Chicken Little in one theater, and the theater across from it had Saw 2(mind you, when you walk out of Chicken Litttle's theater, you can see in the port window of Saw 2's theater)...Do you black out Saw 2's windows just for the sake of possibly the kiddies seeing something that they shouldn't

I suppose if you had really bad lamp wash/ reflectivity from the opposing house, then, yeah... But honestly, this sounds like an urban (or suburban..?) legend that gets dug up every so often to try to (indirectly) take hollywood down a notch. It's the same attempted offense as a patron complaining about the movies you make at your theater.