quote: Paul Mayer

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Why would a theatre want to keep the ticket stubs after tallying and reconciling the daily counts? Just curious.

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quote: Chris Mosel

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We keep for one month. 32 plastic shoe boxes with lids labeled 1-31 and extra. Toss out the appropriate box each day.

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I see you're prepared for when Congress enacts the 32-day month.
 

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Posted by Chris Mosel (Member # 1451) on 05-18-2006, 11:27 PM:
 
I usually work at least 32 days a month. Sometimes more, so I have to cheat and double box a couple of days. Please don't tell anyone.
If not that them someone always manages to screw up a day here and there so we can put back up CYA stubs in "Extra."
 

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Posted by Jeff Arellano (Member # 3249) on 05-18-2006, 11:49 PM:
 
For the longest time, AMC Used to hold them 3 months. Bag them and throw them into a huge trash can (60 Gal), that after the 3 months, can be rolled out and dumped into the compactor.
 

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Posted by Alexander Smith (Member # 1769) on 05-19-2006, 05:51 PM:
 
I don't know if this is representative of cinemas here
in the UK, but we don't keep ticket stubs at all.

The computer ticketing system produces an exhibitor's
report at the end of each day for each film. The system
keeps electronic records for, actually I don't know how
long for. The printed exhibitor's reports are kept for
long time, I don't recall ever seeing them being disposed
of.

I guess different companies have their own protocols for
this type of thing.

Alex.
 

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Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-19-2006, 09:42 PM:
 
It is an auditing issue. You should have the same amount of stubs that you have tickets sold. If you have less stubs than tickets sold it could be indicative of a cashier "double selling" tickets by ripping them and selling both halves pocketing the cash for one of the halves.
 

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Posted by Caleb Johnstone-Cowan (Member # 3710) on 05-21-2006, 11:03 AM:
 
We have one half that has 'customer copy' printed on it.
 

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Posted by Dan Zastrow (Member # 3796) on 05-21-2006, 04:29 PM:
 
Keeping ticket stubs is really only useful for in house to keep an eye on your box staff. A good tell tale that you have some collusion with your box office and door personnel selling "half tickets" is when your concession cap strangely goes up during certain shifts.
The studios used to send counters out (they may still do it but I haven't had one in years) who would introduce themselves to the manager, count heads at each show and then ask for your numbers at the end of the day to compare. Perhaps those of you working in the commercial end of exhibition can tell me if they still do that but in the art house world they don't seem to be too concerned. They seem to be more interested that the average ticket price doesn’t go down too much do to VIP and passes.
 

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Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-21-2006, 10:26 PM:
 
The major circuit I worked for required us to keep ticket stubs for a month. When it was Audit time they would randomly select a couple of days and sort all the tickets out and match them to the box reports, If a large descrepancy was found they would count all the bags and investigate further... I was able to catch cashiers stealing at a 10 plex where there was no door person mon-thur and the cashier ripped thier own tickets.
 

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Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 05-22-2006, 02:43 AM:
 
I personally feel that keeping stubs makes no sense in larger modern theatres. Customers can buy tickets weeks in advance and possibly never redeem them. Would your auditors have a way of telling if the missing tickets were advance purchased? Or perhaps were purchased online by mistake to your theatre when they actually meant to purchase for another with a similar name?

As far as reconciling ticket stubs helping identify theft, you should be able to look at other available data to get the same conclusion. Not only lower than usual attendance+high snack bar per caps, but cashiers will begin showing low hourly sales and fewer transactions per hour, etc.

Having managed a smaller theatre in the past, we kept them only because we thought we should. From time to time they came in handy, but that was a FOUR plex. I can't see that stubs would be useful at a 16-plex for anything, especially if it's one of those 16-plexes where once you're past the doorperson, you're free to roam around and stay all day.
 

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Posted by Christopher Crouch (Member # 3784) on 05-22-2006, 03:53 AM:
 
The company I currently work for requires two weeks worth of stubs to be kept. We keep them in brown lunch bags, stored in a seven drawer cabinet (each drawer corresponding to a day of the week).

I once worked for a company that had us keep them for a year! This was a moderately busy eighteen plex too. By year's end, we had a closet filled with bags of stubs. Had this company actually requested a specific day's stubs, I can't even begin to imagine the hassle. Fortunately, they weren't much for thorough audits.
 

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Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 05-22-2006, 02:28 PM:
 
The last contract I had the nerve to sit down and read, (they are scary) stated ticket stubs were to be kept for two years. The ticket stubs are used for any possible audit of the theatre by the film companies.
Checkers--blind and open--still come in and count heads and make note of ticket serial numbers.
 

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Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-22-2006, 10:32 PM:
 
Scott,

RTMS will show the sales categorized by type (Advance, etc.). All the things you listed are great indicators that "something" is going on but if you dont have cameras and you want to be able to press charges or protect yourself from a lawsuit from a terminated employee its good to have evidence. It would be hard to prove a higher percap as evidence at trial, whereas a report showing 300 tickets sold and only 150 stubs redeemed I think would meet the criteria to be entered as evidence.
 

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Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 05-22-2006, 11:54 PM:
 
I think without cameras any termination based on a ticket scam would not be enough for evidence. Even providing the court with 300 tickets registered but only 150 stubs is just as circumstantial as low per cap because there are any number of reasons OTHER than theft as to why the stubs are missing.

Besides -- when was the last time somebody was terminated for THEFT? Don't most people get terminated for violating money handling policies?
 

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Posted by Dan Zastrow (Member # 3796) on 05-23-2006, 12:21 PM:
 
Scott-You are right, its not about taking some minimum wage box office person to court but getting rid of the bad apples and keeping the honest ones honest because they see that someone really is watching what is going on. A strange variance in concession per caps is just one a several indicators that you might want to take a closer look at a particular shift. Then if you do think there is a problem you can count heads in a show as it is going, check that against the computer/ticket stubs and speak to the staff person about the discrepancy.
 

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Posted by Caleb Johnstone-Cowan (Member # 3710) on 05-23-2006, 08:15 PM:
 
Don't you have cameras on every till?
 

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Posted by Ky Boyd (Member # 23) on 05-23-2006, 08:53 PM:
 
Since I actually have to sign and return the Master License agreements with each studio, I have copies in my files. The following are from the Sony and Warner MLA's:

From the SPR (Sony Pictures Releasing) Theatrical Master License Agreement - Rev 9/04: "Section VIII RETENTION AND AUDIT OF BOOKS AND RECORDS: Exhibitor shall preserve and make available for examination by SPR, or its authorized representative, complete and accurate books and records regarding operation of Exhibitor's business, including, but not limited to, ticket stubs and admission records. SPR shall have the right to audit such books and records with respect to the Film for at least four years after the end of exhibition of that Film. Exhibitor shall reimburse SPR for its audit costs, attorneys fees, costs of suit and collection agency fees when the audit reveals underreporting by Exhibitor."

From the "Standards Terms & Conditions United States license agreement from Warner Brothers Distributing, Inc. (no date or version number provided in document): "Section 27 Document Retention A. Exhibitor will keep, maintain, and preserve (with respect to electronic records, shall maintain continued accessibility, and any necessary conversions must retain all of the information of the original) for at least four (4) years followig the grant of any license by Warner, complete and accurate records and accounts related to such license including, without limitation, all invoices, correspondence, banking, financial, and other records, whether paper or electronic, pertaining to: (1) the acquisition, supply, identification, and disposition of all tickets for admission to the theatre during the license period (except that ticket stubs not generated by a computer system neeed only be kept for one year);

It's interesting to me given the above, that Century Theatres and others don't actually keep ticket stubs when you visit their theatres. I've never seen a rider or an addendum, but one must certainly exist for those chains/theatres, that tear the box office issued ticket to deface it, but do not keep a stub. If I recall correctly, Century's tickets aren't even perforated for stubs.

Yeah, its a pain to have monthly boxes of daily bags of ticket stubs hanging around for four years, but that's what the agreements require.
 

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Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 05-24-2006, 07:37 AM:
 
At one of the cinemas I used to work for the tickets were the two part type, however for certain ticket types (mainly vouchers) the cinema portion was stapeled onto the voucher and kept in the box office, at the cinema entrance these tickets were just inspected and not marked.

How different are the various portions of the tickets, these were near identical although I have seen (mainly in traditional theatres a large size difference between the customer and venue portions of the tickets.
 

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Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 05-24-2006, 09:51 AM:
 
There are certain chains that do not take stubs, such as Century or here in Utah the Megaplex chain. The ticketing software spits out to a separate report each time a ticket is sold or returned. This is their record of a stub equivalent, since the definition of a ticket stub is nothing more than the theaters record of the "individual" transaction itself.

Using stubs is the first and best way to invite the possibility of theft. Chains that do not use stubs, and use thermal printed tickets with individual bar codes and so on, eliminate this kind of double dipping.

As for per-capitas raising and falling dramatically? Anyone that has ever used this to successfully prosecute by this evidence has achieved total judical misconduct. This is not evidence. There are myriad reasons for fluctuations in per-capitas, just as there are for anything in our economy. You cannot use the whims of customers as evidence of theft.

You can perhaps use the old fashioned red handed approach. Proper supervision of stock supplies, door personel, box office persons, concessionists, and even yes, even watching the flow of traffic as people do not stop at the candy counter.

Better to know and understand market fluctuations and plan accordingly than it is to assume that per-capitas only fluctuate with potential theft.

In the stock market, there is a presumption of the "enron" effect. If something raises too high, too fast, it is because the company might be corrupt. Instead, we need to look at the whims of investors who get caught up in these things. The same goes for concessions. Certain shows on certain days with certain types of movies, and dependant upon many external market factors, will each reap different per-capitas. Films like "the unbearable lightness of being" will not sell much popcorn, while any film bearing "star wars" will. We do not currently have anything in place to monitor this.

Also take into account the time of day the movies are playing. Are they before or after main meals, or are they during main meals, when people tend to get hungry? A mis-timed exibition can kill your per caps.

Also the price of Gas, bread, milk, and health insurance, all weigh heavy on the mind of the consumer. When anything like these go up, people react by making adjustments elsewhere. People stop going to movies and spending lots on concessions because other financial woes begin to weigh heavy. Things like this can fluctuate in a single hour, depending on news saturation of stories.

It's all just a crap shoot anyway. I spend out the wazoo on concessions when I see movies. I know I am supporting my theater, not hollywood on this issue. If I like the place, I come back and spend more. Most people think they are getting ripped off by the horrid presentations of entertainment that they are told are movies, but suck my ass in whole new and horrible ways.

I am just ranting.

Ciao
 

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Posted by Dan Zastrow (Member # 3796) on 05-24-2006, 02:55 PM:
 
Hey Ky-sorry to hear we won't be neighbors...
It is amazing that I have never been given a ticket stub at a Century Theater with what you say, But also, how do they control theater hopping with out proof of purchase?
Dave-Of course there are many variables that effect concession sales over time but when you are looking these numbers every day you do see trends, which certainly is not evidence in a court of law, that give the manager an inkling that something has changed.
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 05-24-2006, 03:15 PM:
 
None of the theatres here ever seem to check for theatre hopping. Maybe they do during peak traffic times, but I never go at those times. If floor staff are checking, each customer still has a torn ticket. It's the theatre that doesn't have a physical stub.
 

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Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 05-25-2006, 09:45 PM:
 

quote: Dave Williams

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Anyone that has ever used this to successfully prosecute by this evidence has achieved total judical misconduct

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quote: Dan Zastrow

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It is amazing that I have never been given a ticket stub at a Century Theater with what you say, But also, how do they control theater hopping with out proof of purchase?

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The customer keeps the ticket stub as proof of purchase. The door-person tears the ticket to show that it's been used, and returns it to the patron.
 

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Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 05-30-2006, 04:29 PM:
 
I guess we used to keep them for "auditing" reasons, but with everything going to computers, there simply was no reason to. If a question arose about a certain tally, it can be looked up and printed out. No need to keep the stubs.
 

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Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 05-31-2006, 03:33 AM:
 
Different chains have differnt approaches to auditing. Some use prenumbered ticket stock and have procedures to monitor 'missing' raw ticket stock and store tiket stubs; others use unumbered stock without stubs; some use plain till role paper without any cinema branding.

How many people who store the ticket stubs for months have ever had them audited?
 

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Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 05-31-2006, 06:06 PM:
 
In the UK it is required as part of the contract with the distributor to keep ticket stubs for a minimum 24 hours after the performance, even if using electronic ticketing systems.

We keep them for 7 days, and it has actually proved handy occasionally.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-31-2006, 06:15 PM:
 
So reviewing this thread, it looks like the standard practice for keeping ticket stubs is anywhere from "not at all" to "forever." So I still don't know what to do with all the old stubs we have here! (Keep 'em, I guess.)
 

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Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 05-31-2006, 06:50 PM:
 
I'd throw em out....but then I don't see a real need for them. Ever.
 

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Posted by Matt Kerekes (Member # 2777) on 05-31-2006, 07:03 PM:
 
Mike, I guess its really up to you. Does your POS system keep a record of all ticket sales? If so, you probably don't need to save them at all and still comply with any contracts you may have. Otherwise, I would say you might need to keep the stubs as long as the run of a film, so if you normally have a film 2 weeks, then maybe keep them that long. Or if you want to be safe 3 weeks to a month. Take care.
 

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Posted by Ky Boyd (Member # 23) on 06-03-2006, 03:33 PM:
 
Mike,

I would highly advise you to consult both with your accountant and your attorney before deciding not to hold on to ticket stubs. As you know the game is heavily weighted in the studios favor already. There is no reason to needlessly provoke them and run the risk of being taken off service. It's one thing to have an opinion based on the chain or organization you work for. It is a totally different set of circumstances to be the owner/operator of an independent who signs both the license agreement and the personal guarantee letters.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-04-2006, 09:38 PM:
 
Ky,
Yeah that's what I figure. I'm trying to figure out a new/better way to store the stubs. But we will keep them so I won't be going to jail any time soon. (at least not for film-company contract violations!) Thanks all for the info.
 

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