Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Fake Doctor's Notes

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Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 07-05-2006, 03:01 PM:

Just found out today that one of my employees provided me with a fake doctor's note in June. The employee and her mother are going to be contacted by the physician in regards to the forgery. I have actually never had to deal with this - or at least known that a note was fake before. I was wondering about legal implications. Obviously, I may have to let her go - no question there. I guess if she had received sick pay - there would be an legal issue on our end - but she did not. I guess the doctor who's name was forged would take action against them if necessary? I have been looking around the Internet for info -but everything is really vague......

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-05-2006, 03:25 PM:

Telling lies is always a firing offense. Louis

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-05-2006, 03:29 PM:

If your theatre or insurance company suffered financial loss, you could sue for fraud. The doctor in question should be sure that prescriptions were not also forged, and should report the incident to the proper authorities.

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 07-05-2006, 11:40 PM:

When it comes to doctor's notes, there are several legal issues to take into consideration.

1. Depending on your company's policy on sick time will depend on what legal actions you can take. If they are allowed to take sick days, paid or unpaid, it would depend on if you require medical certification to qualify for time off from work, paid or unpaid.

2. Your company's size will also come into play. If your company falls under FMLA (family medical leave act), then you cannot take any action against an employee if they provide proper medical certification. Employees are not required to provide medical records, nor can you request them.

3. If your company does not have a sick policy, and does not fall under FMLA, calling in sick can very well be protected depending on the laws of your state.

4. If your company does have a policy on sick and attendance, and does not fall under FMLA, calling in sick outside of policy is a termination offence on the first offence, if the policy is written appropriately.

5. If an employee is required to provide medical certification to be sick from work, and does so, and it later turns out that the certification is fraudulent, it is a termination offence.

6. If an employee is NOT required to provide medical certification, but is requested to do so by the employer, and does so, and it later found to be fraudulent, the EMPLOYER is at fault for violation of privacy, even though the note was forged.

7. If an employee is NOT required to provide medical certification to be sick, but provides it anyway without the employer requesting it, and the note turns out to be forged, it is a termination offence. Make sure that in this case that there can be absolutely no hint of anyone in the company giving any idea at all that this note was necessary if it in fact was not.

So it really is subjective depending on your individual company's situation. In most cases, it is a termination offence. Still, you have to make very darn sure that if you terminate for this, that you do have all the legal grounds covered.

Ciao

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 07-06-2006, 02:36 PM:

Why not skirt the termination issues by keeping the person on the schedule but cut the hours to one shift every 3 or 4 weeks;.

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 07-06-2006, 06:46 PM:

Doctors excusses are as lame as dog-ate-homework excuses. When my students produce one I tell them I don't even want to see it. If they leave one on the podium before I arrive for class, I'll take it home and burn it solely for their confidentiality in obtaining it (fake or not). In the case of the employee producing one, it was entirely unnecessary UNLESS the sickness/injury was work related or sick pay was involved (and we already deduced the latter was not). Our society is too excuse oriented. Either you're there or not there - school, work - doesn't matter. If she died tomorrow somebody will take her place, excuse or not.

Posted by Caleb Johnstone-Cowan (Member # 3710) on 07-06-2006, 07:07 PM:

"Why not skirt the termination issues by keeping the person on the schedule but cut the hours to one shift every 3 or 4 weeks;."

Do you have legislation against constructive dismissal in the US, and if so wouldn't this come under it?

Also if someone faked a doctors note would you really want them working for you at all?

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 07-06-2006, 09:12 PM:

If you terminate someone you'd better have the circumstances well documented in case the make an issue of it. If the individual is is a minority, documentation is extremely important in case they claim they were terminated because of their ethnicity.

Posted by Paul J. Neuhaus (Member # 3205) on 07-07-2006, 12:31 AM:

Bill,
Please do not give this as advice.

I have seen this is in practice too many times it is just bad leadership.

It means you don't have enough respect for your employees to shoot them straight and tell them that they are not living up to your expectations.

When you just change around their schedule untill they don't show up anymore you get a disgruntled employee. Also you get one that you don't see that often.

When the day comes that they don't show up or they are working below par you are punishing the other employees because you have created a bad working environment and that would be YOUR fault not just theirs.

A lack of integrity on anybody's part is inexcusable and should be met with swift action.

I see where you are coming from Bill but it is just bad advice. Never be afraid of standing behind your convictions.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-07-2006, 01:13 AM:

I couldn't agree more. I've seen people "fired" that way too many times, and it pisses me off. The cowardace of the management, and their cheating the employee, even if he deserves to be fired. They do it because an employee quitting or abandoning is alot less paperwork, it's alot neater meaning the employee is less likely to contest it. And the company doesn't get a hit on their unemployment.

Posted by Lance C. McFetridge (Member # 95) on 07-07-2006, 10:16 AM:

We operate in an "at will" state. No need for an explaination to dismiss. This keeps us from defending ourselves. I fire at will. If the employee is dishonest with you, does management have an obligation to tell them why they are terminated? I don't think so.
lance

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 07-07-2006, 10:55 AM:

I think that everyone somewhat blowing this out of proportion. Teenagers will be teenagers, and most of us did some stupid things as teenagers.

The question really is, do you want to keep the employee or not? If the answer is that this was one bone headed mistake in an otherwise good employee, then take appropriate action. If not, then get rid of him/her. The fake note is an issue between the kid and his doctor. As the note was false, your issue in this case is an unexcused absense from work and lying. You can always find a reason, including this reason, to fire someone. In either event, it should be formally written up.

I'm with the majority, don't cut the hours. Either take action or not as you feel the situation warrents.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-07-2006, 11:28 AM:

The very best employment practice I have ever seen is to distribute 2 copies of the "10 things that will get you fired NOW" list to each employee at the time of hiring; employee signs one copy which is kept in his file.

ANY infraction is subject to immediate dismissal; no warnings.

You go through a lot of people, but the ones you keep are solid gold. You establish that this is routine procedure.

This is basically the UPS system. Louis

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-07-2006, 08:48 PM:

quote: Lance C. McFetridge
We operate in an "at will" state

Iowa is the same way - no reasons needed.

You already stated "no question there" about letting her go, so all this discussion about your company policy is pointless.

I think you need only to look at Maryland's laws on dismissal, as every state could be different, but I'm interpreting your post as questioning more about legal implications regarding whether or not you should try to take legal action against her. I think impersonating a physician is up there with impersonating a police officer, so call your local cop-shop, but it's probably one of those things that they'll have better things to tend to than deal with her. Whether or not the doctor decides to press charges would be very important.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-08-2006, 04:48 AM:

I would like to see those 10 commanments "Top 10 things that will get you fired NOW" Maybe somethine we could/should include here.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 07-08-2006, 08:00 PM:

quote: Charles Greenlee
I would like to see those 10 commanments

I don't know that there is actually a universal list that applies to all places. I think if you make up your own list (approved by ownership of course) it would be fine. You certainly are not limited to 10 things. Off the top of my head, grounds for immediate dismissal could be:

payroll fraud (time card fraud); theft (including letting people in for free or giving out free concessions); damage to company property, employees, or customers; posession, use, sale, or distribution of drugs or alcohol on company property; being in the building (without permission) after hours

any others?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-10-2006, 08:20 AM:

firearms, knives, rude-to-patrons, lying in any form, smoking on theatre property, not showing up, habitual lateness, not memorizing the 10 commandments. .

Sorry I can't remember more; it has been a few years and that small circuit went in to real estate (using the theatre properties.) Louis

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 07-15-2006, 07:07 PM:

Forgery is a criminal offense.. Regardless of your sick policy you can fire them just for that.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 07-15-2006, 07:26 PM:

OK, I'll restate it. If you fire anybody for any reason at all, you had damned better have in writing the time and date, the infractions occurred and the nature of the offence, if you don't and they know it, they would be stupid to accept the firing without a fight. In other words, it is a lot smarter and cheaper to cover your ass than to defend yourself in court.