This is topic Fox threatens to delay dates in Canada; warners cancels promo screenings in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Ron Keillor (Member # 1790) on 01-16-2007, 01:59 AM:
Pirates of the Canadians
GAYLE MACDONALD
From Saturday's Globe and Mail
It was the kind of letter that can ruin a guy's day.
Late in November, Twentieth Century Fox fired off a blunt, one-page missive to Ellis Jacob, the Toronto-based chief executive of Cineplex Entertainment, Canada's biggest cinema chain.
Bruce Snyder, Fox's Hollywood-based president of domestic distribution, had spent the last few weeks steaming mad after his team pinpointed Canadian theatres — primarily in Montreal — as the source of illegal camcording of a steady stream of Fox blockbusters, including Borat, Eragon and Night at the Museum.
Snyder was sick of it. In the Nov. 30 letter, he warned Jacob, a friend and business associate for 20 years, to do something — or he would.
Then he threatened to do something unprecedented in Canadian distribution history: Fox could stop sending copies of all its films to Cineplex Entertainment's 130 movie houses, with close to 1,300 screens. Or, Fox might decide to delay the Canadian release of popular films until a few weeks after their U.S. release.
In the letter, Snyder fumed that his company had discerned that, at one point during 2006, Canadian theatres were the source for nearly 50 per cent of illegal camcords across the globe: “Much like an out-of-control epidemic, those Canadian camcords ... have become a leading source of worldwide Internet film piracy.”
Jacob, whose company is the world's fourth-largest theatre chain in terms of revenue and fifth-biggest measured by locations/screens, felt physically ill. More so, he readily admits, because he recognized Snyder was absolutely right. Cineplex Entertainment — in conjunction with the Canadian Motion Picture Distributors Association (CMPDA), the RCMP and other movie chains such as Empire and AMC — have been lobbying the federal government for years to make it a criminal offence to pirate films. But so far their efforts have fallen on deaf ears. Sophisticated thieves toting black-leather bags with remote zooms, monitor devices and infrared sound receivers, and wearing sweatshirts or jackets with special holes designed to surround the lens of a camera, are having a field day.
For the third year in a row, the U.S. government has placed Canada on its “watch list” for a lack of IPR (intellectual-property rights) enforcement, which means this country is in the same company as notorious film-piracy hubs such as Lebanon, China, the Philippines and Russia.
“We're doing everything we can, but we have problems with the government not doing enough,” says Jacob. “We've caught people camcording in our theatres, but all we can do is tell them to leave, and they show up the next day again.
“In the States, you're criminally charged because it's theft. Here, if someone steals five DVDs from Blockbuster, law enforcement swoops down. But someone leaves my theatre with a pirated video in his pocket, and we can't get the police to come,” he says.
“We want people to come to the theatre and enjoy the experience. We don't want to turn theatres into airport check-ins, but it might have to get to that point.”
Reached by phone at his office in Beverly Hills, Calif., Snyder says he understands Jacob's frustration with Canada's lax laws. But he adds that unless Cineplex, other Canadian movie chains and the government crack down on film piracy, he will have to take matters into his own hands.
Snyder is also considering pushing Canada's theatrical release behind the U.S. date by a week or two. “At least we would then have a running start before we have to start competing with ourselves.”
The U.S. Motion Picture Association (MPA) claims that in 2005 piracy cost American studios $6.1-billion (U.S.). In Canada, the CMPDA estimates its members lost $118-million (U.S.) the same year.
“What drove us to write that letter was the blatant and continuing camcording of our movies, primarily now in Montreal, but previously in Toronto,” says Snyder, whose company, along with Fox Searchlight, is one of the largest distributors in the world.
“Canada is now the prime culprit in the world. Once we started busting people in New York, Detroit and Chicago, they quickly figured out the place to be is in Canada. There simply are not enough teeth in your laws.”
In 2005, U.S. President George W. Bush signed the Family Entertainment and Copyright Act, which made camcording in a theatre a federal felony. John Fithian, president of the U.S. National Association of Theater Owners, adds that 38 of the 50 states have specific state laws that impose criminal sanctions against camcorder pirates, both fines and jail time.
But in Canada, the theft of intellectual property is basically treated as a “soft crime,” says CMPDA president Doug Frith. “Canada has done nothing to remedy its lack of domestic enforcement and complete absence of border enforcement.
“We're very frustrated with the legislative vacuum we have here,” adds Frith, who points out that theatre operators have no right to detain an individual they detect camcording a motion picture, or to confiscate their recording. “We're the laughing stock when it comes to piracy in the world.”
Frith says government bureaucrats try to placate him by saying that under the Copyright Act exhibitors have the ability to charge someone criminally. “But here's the catch. Under the Copyright Act, you have to prove that an individual camcording in the theatre is doing it for distribution purposes. That's almost impossible.
“Front-line employees catch a guy sitting in the front row camcording Mission: Impossible III, they call police and they're told it's a matter for the RCMP because [the] Copyright [Act] is federal.
“We don't want to have to prove the economic loss from distribution. We want it to be a Criminal Code activity to be caught camcording. Period.”
The RCMP readily concedes there has been a radical growth in film piracy in this country in recent years. With help from Interpol, it has also found a clear link between organized crime and film piracy, often more profitable than drug trafficking.
“If money is involved, organized crime is going to be involved,” says Andris Zarins, the RCMP's national intellectual property crime co-ordinator.
With film piracy, the rewards can be huge, while the risks of any meaningful law enforcement are currently low, Zarins adds.
Take the example of one of the few film pirates Canada has actually arrested and prosecuted. Several months ago, police in Richmond, B.C., raided a small business in a strip mall, seizing thousands of counterfeit DVDs. It arrested the owner, 46-year-old Chiu Lau, who was fined (for his third time in three years) under the Copyright Act.
Last Remembrance Day, Lau pleaded guilty to 83 counts under the Copyright Act. He got a $5,000 fine and a 12-month conditional sentence. A further wrist slap? He was confined to his home from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m.
“Minimal fines of $5,000 or $6,000 are a joke,” says Frith. “These guys view it as a cost of doing business. If we raid them on Friday, they're back in business on Monday morning.”
Contrast that to the arrest of Hollywood's so-called “Prince of Piracy.” Last month, Johnny Ray Gasca, 36, was sentenced to seven years in prison for copyright infringement after multiple arrests and a 16-month manhunt. And prior to that in New York, the FBI arrested 13 members of two large-scale international movie-piracy rings that had been under surveillance for three years. If convicted, each could face up to five years in prison. Last October, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg also vowed to find, sue and shut down landlords who knowingly house people who sell pirated DVDs.
Last summer, Toronto police — with the help of the CMPDA — busted a major counterfeit DVD operation in another suburban strip mall, seizing 140 DVD-CD burners, and 20,000 copies of counterfeit movies. They arrested four people.
Frith estimates the seized burners could have produced more than three-million pirated discs in one year, worth about $17-million (Canadian).
“We want law enforcement to be able to go after those individuals — to be able to seize cash in the till, to go to their homes, to their cars. I'm not blaming the RCMP. They have their priorities, what with border security and terrorism, but we have a legislative and an enforcement vacuum. We have to allow other police jurisdictions to assist the copyright industry.”
Fox's Snyder is particularly irked at the persistent amount of camcording he and his distribution team have been able to track directly back to several of Cineplex's Montreal theatres. (Fox and other studios use forensic watermarking to know the exact time, date and auditorium where a copy was made.) “The reality is in 2005, 20 per cent of all identified camcordings occurred in Canada,” says Frith. “That's a huge number. And it's growing.
“These aren't individuals who want to make a few extra bucks,” he adds. “They're extremely sophisticated organizations, who use the latest tools, are well organized, tech savvy and well funded.
The scam attracts this calibre of crook because the pay is good. A good camcording of a film can fetch $5,000 to $7,000 from pirate distributors. Make two or three a weekend, Frith points out, and “you're earning between $500,000 and $700,000 a year.”
But there are plenty of amateurs in the game as well. Most people who view pirated movies don't pay for them. They download them for free over the Internet at websites such as BitTorrent or Shareaza.
There are some non-techie diehards, though, who still buy bootleg DVDs, out of car trunks, in roadside stalls, flea markets, downtown shops and suburban strip malls, in every city — and most towns — across Canada.
Often, the quality of these recordings is abysmal, with people chatting in the background or heads popping up in the picture when a cinemagoer makes a beeline for the concession stand. But some are good enough for the less discerning movie fan.
But enterprising chaps like Gary — a 37-year-old Durham, Ont., man — have found ways to make pirated DVDs they claim are as good as anything coming off the shelves at Wal-Mart.
Gary — not his real name — heads into his local Blockbuster the instant a feature film is released on DVD. He burns the movie, usually making up to seven copies, the first night. He then sells his pirated DVDs for $10 a piece to 150 of his closest friends. He says it's a great side business to his full-time job, paying for all the little extras (like more sophisticated software to make better pirated versions).
Does he feel any guilt? Not a bit. “I look at what they charge in the stores, $24.99, and it makes me sick. My copies are among the cheaper ones,” he says, referring to competitors who charge up to $15 for a bootleg DVD. “There are people who go through the General Motors plant with hockey bags full of them.
“For a while I did black-market DVDs — but they're generally bad quality and customers got upset with them,” adds Gary, who purchased handheld versions from a woman in a Markham strip mall who had them shipped in containers from China. “Those tapes stunk real bad, too,” Gary says with a laugh. “That woman's been arrested four times.”
Gary says he has his standards. “I'd never download them off the Internet and make copies,” he says. “That leaves a record.”
Another Toronto resident says he buys pirated DVDs from his buddies who regularly tape movies at the Alliance Atlantis cinema in the Beaches neighbourhood. They go in with camcorders for the Saturday matinees. Like Gary, this guy says he feels no remorse for essentially buying a piece of stolen property, adding that, “Hollywood is filled with a bunch of fat cats.”
And the pace at which pirated copies of new theatrical releases are found for sale as DVDs or on the Internet is dizzying. In 2003, the pirate DVD of Pirates of the Caribbean did not appear until 65 to 75 days after theatrical release.
Last year, the first pirate DVD purchase was made 13 hours after Poseidon's first screening. The first pirate download was 42 hours after the movie made its big-screen debut.
In the past 12 months, Fox sales manager Bert Livingston says he has sent technology specialists, training personnel and the latest anti-piracy equipment to Canada to help theatres try to catch the so-called “cammers” (people who shoot films covertly in theatres). “We've tried everything. We were hoping to try to stop it. But it just did not happen,” says Livingston. “If we stop it in one theatre, they simply move to another theatre about five miles further out into the suburbs.”
An MPA analysis of counterfeit discs in 2005 revealed close to 75 per cent of all films illegally camcorded in Canada were recorded in theatres in and around Montreal, recently identified as the No. 1 city in the world for surreptitious camcording. The reason? Pirates can easily create both English- and French-language masters.
The RCMP's Zarins says there is a major investigation under way in Montreal now. “Our members are working closely with the CMPDA on this. We partner with the private sector as much as we can.”
A crackdown can't come too soon for Snyder, who says he's willing to take a short-term financial hit by holding back his pictures to wake up Canadian government officials and lawmakers to the severity of the problem.
“We'll give Cineplex a pass the first time we find someone camcording, or it hits the Internet,” says Snyder. “But the second time it happens, we will no longer be playing Fox pictures — or Fox Searchlight pictures — there for an indefinite period of time.
“We need our partners in exhibition to protect our films,” adds Snyder. “But if they won't — or can't — we won't put our movies at risk by putting them in their theatres.”
And a bottle of rum for my long link
[ 01-16-2007, 03:31 AM: Message edited by: Adam Martin ]
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 01-16-2007, 04:16 AM:
quote: Ron Keillor
his team pinpointed Canadian theatres — primarily in Montreal — as the source of illegal camcording of a steady stream of Fox blockbusters
oh, those bad, bad people!
quote: Ron Keillor
Cineplex Entertainment — in conjunction with the Canadian Motion Picture Distributors Association (CMPDA), the RCMP and other movie chains such as Empire and AMC — have been lobbying the federal government for years to make it a criminal offence to pirate films. But so far their efforts have fallen on deaf ears.
but wait! it's not actually a crime. gosh, that first excerpt sure made it sound like one!
quote:
“If money is involved, organized crime is going to be involved,” says Andris Zarins, the RCMP's national intellectual property crime co-ordinator.
but only if prohibition is also involved.
Posted by Caleb Johnstone-Cowan (Member # 3710) on 01-16-2007, 09:42 AM:
Surely the simple solution is to employ extra staff on opening weekends? You could get one person solely checking for suspicious customers at the sime time as checking up on sound and picture quality and customers up to no good in the back rows.
Posted by Timothy Eiler (Member # 383) on 01-16-2007, 10:38 AM:
quote:
“We're doing everything we can, but we have problems with the government not doing enough,” says Jacob. “We've caught people camcording in our theatres, but all we can do is tell them to leave, and they show up the next day again.
While I am not familiar with Canadian laws, If Someone could cause my business harm as described in this article, I would hope I could Ban the offender from ever entering my theatre(s) again.
Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 01-16-2007, 06:27 PM:
$20.00 for a DVD is silly. The studios could charge $3 or $4 a DVD, and still make a profit. But at $3 or $4, it would not be worth it for the pirates to make copies, and try to sell them. At that price more people would buy more DVDs, and the studios could end up making more money.
As long as there is lots of money involved, the studios will never stop the pirates. Just look at how successful we have been at stopping the flow of drugs, after all the time and money this country has put into it.
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-16-2007, 06:31 PM:
Post a notice in the lobby before ticketing stating: "No recording; those caught will be held overnight in our dungeon." No laws required: patron agrees to this as a condition of purchasing a ticket. Print this also on the ticket stub. Make an on-screen trailer showing a man chained to the wall.
Government is NEVER the answer. Louis
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-16-2007, 06:48 PM:
quote: Bruce Hansen
The studios could charge $3 or $4 a DVD, and still make a profit.
Maybe, if they sold directly to the consumers. But the studio has to sell the product to a distributor, which sells to a subdistributor, which sells to a wholesaler, which sells to the stores, which sell to the public. Presto, $20 for a DVD.
And, if the studios did decide to sell direct, they'd have to put in a whole infrastructure to do it. More executives, more payroll, warehouse space, shipping/packing equipment, etc etc etc., presto. $20 again.
Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 01-16-2007, 07:44 PM:
More ridiculous studio blather instead of solving the real issues. Really now, hidden cameras concealed in clothing, with sound picked up via the hearing impaired devices, in tens of thousands of auditoriums. You can NEVER stop the bootleg recording of movies. Not with Crap Code, not with "D-Cinema", not ever. Better laws, stiffer fines? Sure, whatever. If the studios think that the exhibitor should be staffing these mega-plexes with more than a couple roving 16 year old minimum-wagers, maybe they ought to take less of a percentage. ![[puke]](graemlins/puke.gif)
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-17-2007, 07:21 AM:
I agree that it is difficult to stop people from bringing in camcorders, but it would make sense for Canada to have tougher laws to provide more serious penalties. I think this is a problem that has to be worked on at 'both ends' ie: at the government level and at the theaters.
Note to Louis: A friend of mine used to always say:
"What are the most terrifying words you can hear? 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you.'" ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 01-17-2007, 07:58 AM:
quote: Dave Bird
maybe they ought to take less of a percentage.
Maybe... but in my experience, people will complain no matter what you charge.
We still get people, though infrequently, who think we should be playing first-run double features for $5 a carload.
Everything we sell is under what any local indoor house charges, yet it's still too much for some.
I run a swap meet on Sunday, and there are shoppers who think I should let them in for free, rather than the $.50/single or $1 carload I charge now.
I think the people who download would do so if theatre admission or DVDs were free... too much trouble to get to the theatre, and gas is soooo expensive.
Comments about what Hollywood or their individual participants make is beside the point. Given the opportunity to debate, nobody will ever agree on what the other guy should be making. To some, if it's profit, it's bad.
If the marketplace feels a product is too expensive, the way to get the message across is by staying home and reading a book... not stealing the product under the rationale that it's ok for the thief to sell the (stolen) content, but the fat-cat studio should make nothing. Given published comments like that, I wouldn't blame the studios for pulling the plug for a while.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-17-2007, 07:59 AM:
I don't understand people who complain about DVD prices. As far as I'm concerned, $20 for a DVD and $29 for a (cheap, crappy) player is an incredible bargain. Consider that the early VHS and Betamax tapes sold for upwards of $80 each (in early 1980s dollars) and that the players were upwards of $500-1000; never mind that the picture quality was far worse and that the tapes were not as durable. Actually, I would even go so far as to argue that DVD prices should be higher, since cheap video copies serve to cheapen the whole "movie experience"--i.e. "why should I pay $20 for two movie tickets when I can buy the movie on DVD for $20?"
DVDs are a steal. It's the $18.99 CDs that are a rip-off, as the production cost of an album is far less than that of most movies and a popular CD will have a longer shelf-life and will sell more copies than most DVDs. How many DVDs sell several million copies?
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 01-17-2007, 08:56 AM:
I never understood why law enforcement doesn't just walk down the streets of any major city to find the guys on the street selling these things so they can round them up and throw them in jail for five years and charge them with a $25,000 fine - I have to sit through a message telling me that they'll do that to ME if I make a copy of the movie I just purchased.
Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 01-17-2007, 10:42 AM:
Canada may very well need tougher laws on the books for this type of thing, we already have "tough" laws on guns and drugs, etc. The problem is, with a tiny population of 30 million so spread out, the enforcement is nearly impossible. There just is not the political will or resources to fight this. I suspect it's not alot different anywhere, I mean, who are you going to spend your time on, terrorists or 16 year olds with camcorders? My tax money spent to prosecute these kids (who don't have ANY assets to seize) is wasted. The organized crime rings behind it remain untouched.
Perhaps the theatres can negotiate a raise in their house allowance to actually put people in the auditoriums to try to monitor this. Hollywood might actually buy that. The problem is often these types of things turn into a cash grab and the extra staff doesn't get hired.
The threat of getting burned for allowing piracy in my own theatre is perhaps the only incentive to keep that 2K bulb for the 80-foot screen. Crappy image = crappy bootlegs! Hey, maybe THAT's why they're pushing D-Cinema! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-17-2007, 05:02 PM:
quote: Mark J. Marshall
I never understood why law enforcement doesn't just walk down the streets of any major city to find the guys on the street selling these things so they can round them up and throw them in jail for five years and charge them with a $25,000 fine
Because the guys selling the DVDs on the street aren't the problem. You arrest one, two more will spring up...and the guy won't have the $25,000 fine anyway, so what's better? Let the taxpayers give him free room and board, or cut him loose with a suspended sentence?
The root problem is the "warehouses" where thousands of copies of pirate DVDs are printed up. Well, the REAL root problem is probably studio screeners, but that's another thread.
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 01-17-2007, 07:20 PM:
quote:
Because the guys selling the DVDs on the streets aren't the problem.
Here in NYC, I've seen kids, spanish women selling the DVDs in Herald Square area of the city and asian women in the Chinatown area. In Jersey I've seen spanish men & women walking down the streets and going into fast food places and laundry mats selling bootleg DVDs.
Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 01-18-2007, 07:58 AM:
Its not people video taping the screen that's the problem....who wants to watch a shitty video copy anyway.. its the studio screeners! most of the bootleg DVD's or downloads are from perfect transfers with 5.1 sound.. I don't understand why Fox is so upset with Cineplex.. Fox should look a little more internally. I love how the blame always falls to someone else... Blame CANADA!!
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 01-18-2007, 11:09 AM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
The root problem is the "warehouses" where thousands of copies of pirate DVDs are printed up.
Fine. Tail the guy(s) for a couple of weeks, find out where the warehouse is, and burn it the fuck down. How hard is this?
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 01-18-2007, 11:23 AM:
quote: Paul Gordon
Its not people video taping the screen that's the problem....
I dunno... From the look of the article, Fox is pretty sure, and Cineplex isn't arguing the point much....
Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 01-18-2007, 01:46 PM:
See the topic MPAA's Anti-Piracy website in this forum. Last March I posted a wire story about Montreal piracy.
Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 01-18-2007, 03:19 PM:
I don't know if it's a blame Canada thing, I notice that it's a Canadian article. Probably just another lame studio propaganda piece designed to (rightly) dissuade buying bootlegs. I recall a piece out of NYC talking about how bootlegs were costing the industry $8 billion a year. Really? So all those people who buy $4 illegal DVD's would really pay the $10. admission OR wait for the $30 DVD? Not likely, more contrived statistics. 50% of WORLDWIDE pirating comes from Canada, a country of 30 million? Again, not likely.
I know it's a problem which needs to be solved, but the problem of these patronizing articles is that they're so obviously exaggerated, they treat the public like we're a bunch of idiots.
It's hard to take it seriously, which is defeating the purpose of the whole campaign, stopping theft.
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 01-18-2007, 05:26 PM:
quote: Dave Bird
I know it's a problem which needs to be solved, but the problem of these patronizing articles is that they're so obviously exaggerated, they treat the public like we're a bunch of idiots.
It's hard to take it seriously, which is defeating the purpose of the whole campaign, stopping theft.
EVERYBODY exaggerates their numbers these days... At the least, they go out of their way to make them look as good as they can (naturally).
Boxoffice has an article this month, touting D-Cinema's claim to have "topped the millenium mark" in terms of installs. I think they used the word at least 4 or 5 times in something like 3 articles.
"So, how many systems have you installed now?"
"Oh... a millenium or so."
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 01-19-2007, 05:56 PM:
This could be a great thing for Canadian theatres.
1. Growth of Canadian exhibition: "Well, we don't have Pirates 3 this week, lets run X Canadian-made, Canadian-distributed film from X Canadian director,"
2. Exhibitors miss bombs: "Oh look, Snakes On A Plane did $15 million opening weekend in the USA. Lets put it on one small screen,"
3. Build anticipation: "OMG! Pirates 3 is getting 5 stars everywhere! I can't wait!"
I mean, there's disadvantages, but you wouldn't get stuck with a turkey, that's for sure.
Posted by Anslem Rayburn (Member # 1267) on 01-19-2007, 07:57 PM:
quote: Paul Gordon
Its not people video taping the screen that's the problem....who wants to watch a shitty video copy anyway.. its the studio screeners! most of the bootleg DVD's or downloads are from perfect transfers with 5.1 sound.
I have seen bootlegs at someone elses home, and every single one of his many bootlegs are taken from a cinema screen. He acquired them while overseas in the military. I have seen one bootleg taken from a screener, and that was "Home Alone" and was shown during detention in High School!
I think screeners are a problem, but just because that's true, it doesn't mean that taping from a screen is less of a problem. There are PLENTY of people out there that are more than happy with a dirt cheap copy of a camcorded movie spinning in their DVD player at home, especially when they can get it while the film is still playing at the local theater. Don't underestimate the cheapness of people, or their desire to feel "cool" by having the latest, greatest movie before anyone else, just to show off to their friends. In these cases, it doesn't matter what quality the movie is.
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 01-20-2007, 01:34 AM:
And some camcorder theives can be quite sophisticated, as aluded to in the article. Why do you think the studios are so paranoid about DTS discs? Pirates were using them to add perfect 5.1 soundtracks to their DVD's. They even used disks to 'dub' their camcordered movies into different languages for world distribution.
Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 01-20-2007, 02:20 PM:
And why not target camcorder makers?
"Nah, let's just distribute our ![[bs]](graemlins/bs.gif)
digitally, that'll deter pirates,"
Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 01-20-2007, 04:59 PM:
Why not target VHS/mini dv/dvd manufacturers?
Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 01-20-2007, 05:12 PM:
Because they're already applying a fee to every piece of blank media that is sold, treating pretty much everyone like criminals.
If they developed some way for the flicker from 30fps taping 24fps to be permanent or applied a fee to those too, then they could shut up about the piracy because they'd be making a profit irregardless.
Posted by Anslem Rayburn (Member # 1267) on 01-21-2007, 08:25 PM:
Let's not forget that a camcorder/VHS/mini dv/dvd has a million legal uses. Targeting theater chains that don't do enough to stop illegal taping of a movie is the only logical way to stop the activity.
As a theater, we are supposed to be a partner with the studio. Our end of the deal involves providing a clean, professional atmosphere for people to enjoy a product. The studio's end involves providing said product. As the end of the chain that displays and sells entry to view the product, we are responsible for protecting it. Just like a store is responsible for protecting it's inventory, not the supplier the store gets their goods from.
No matter what other problems exist with respect to piracy, it's time this industry take some responsibility and quit trying to pass the buck. Every time one of these discussions comes up, everyone is quick to point out screeners and laugh off the idea that people would actually pay money to get a copy of a camcorded movie. It happens, and it needs to be addressed. It doesn't matter what other ways movies are pirated, if they don't involve theaters. We can only address the issues with our own industry, and when we have done that, we can bitch about the other areas.
Posted by Andrew McCrea (Member # 674) on 02-26-2007, 11:22 AM:
Could theatres somehow project ifrared beams from behind the screen to blackout the images?
Clive Owen did it "Inside Man", so it must be true. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Chad M Calpito (Member # 3736) on 02-26-2007, 01:10 PM:
I would have to agree with Anslem on this. You said it well. But, I also will agree with various points brought up in this topic.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-26-2007, 02:04 PM:
Anyone who is stupid enough to waste their time watching a movie in the horrible low quality of a camcorder video-taped bootleg is probably not going to set foot into a movie theater at all in the first place. They're idiots who deserve to be tied in a bag, soaked in sewage and then laughed at in ridicule. I'd have more respect for the miscreants if they tried searching out a good quality Chinese dub of a studio screener disc, which is how most pirate product is presented.
I kind of find it strange how the Hollywood studios continue to focus on the low-tech camcorder method of piracy at movie theaters. They might fight piracy more effectively by looking inward at their own operations in how pre-release screener DVDs and even film prints themselves leak out to high tech mass production piracy operations. But that behavior is typical in American business. It's always someone else's fault.
quote: Bruce Hansen
$20.00 for a DVD is silly. The studios could charge $3 or $4 a DVD, and still make a profit. But at $3 or $4, it would not be worth it for the pirates to make copies, and try to sell them.
Some DVD titles have pretty elaborate packaging and extensive bonus material. I think those are worth significantly more than a paltry $3-$4. It costs that much just to rent a video.
What's silly is music companies expecting to charge upwards of $20 for bare bones music CDs, even ones that are pretty old. Wait a few months after a movie has been released on DVD and that $15 to $20 price drops to $10-$15 and then $7 and then $5. You hardly ever see any price discounts like that on music, unless the CD release was just crap and didn't sell worth a damn even when new.
The problem with movies these days is there are too few worth seeing in a big movie theater or even viewing multiple times. I won't buy a DVD unless I want to watch it at least several times and have it for repeat viewings later. A DVD worth only watching once in my entertainment rack is just wasting space.
I'm not sure what can be done about camcorder pirates. Installing metal detectors might be a good idea for some theaters regardless. Too bad you can't just beat the crap out of them or tazer them and then destroy their camera equipment and slash all the tires on the vehicles. The law wouldn't allow it even though the pirates would deserve it.
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Boxoffice has an article this month, touting D-Cinema's claim to have "topped the millennium mark" in terms of installs. I think they used the word at least 4 or 5 times in something like 3 articles.
Carmike passed the 1000 screen mark on D-Cinema installations this past December. Christie/AIX can at least make that "millennium" claim, but I don't know about any of the other players.
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And some camcorder thieves can be quite sophisticated, as alluded to in the article. Why do you think the studios are so paranoid about DTS discs? Pirates were using them to add perfect 5.1 soundtracks to their DVD's.
Nearly all pirate DVDs with perfect 5.1 sound are those dubbed from studio screener DVDs. It's more trouble to use a DTS disc to get a 5.1 track. The CD has to be one that can still be played back via the WinAMP plug-in. Or the pirate would need access to a DTS playback unit and record the analog line outs. Then he has to re-encode the audio into either Dolby Digital or the home version of DTS (since DTS theatrical is completely incompatible with home systems). Pirated movies have a very short shelf life,
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Could theatres somehow project infrared beams from behind the screen to blackout the images?
That won't shut off a standard video camera. At worst, it could fool the auto-focus sensor in the camera. But any doofus can figure out how to switch over to manual focus (and possibly would need to do so in such low light settings).
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 02-26-2007, 03:11 PM:
Tell me, is there any evidence other than 'common sense' that points to screener DVD's as the 'primary source' for piracy? I admit, it happens. A friend of mine wanted to show me 'Fahrenheit 9/11' on his computer; it had 'this is a studio screener' or some such garbage flashing across the bottum every five minutes.
I attended a seminar at Showest in 2005 that talked about piracy. One of the things they did was present a clip from a recent movie-I forget which one-which had been pirated using a camcorder. It looked surprisingly good. They should the same clip 4 different times in 4 different langauges-a feat that had been accomplished by the pirates using DTS disks. Unless they were flat out lying to us I can certainly believe it.
Look, there is a lot of bullshit coming from the studios about piracy; locked film can for pre-screenings, security gaurds to watch the print the entire time, security titles on the cans/boxes (and worst of all security titled PRINTS), those idiotic PSA's they came out with a few years back with the sound guy/etc saying 'I'm gonna lose my job due to piracy. All those things are complete bullshit. This doesn't mean piracy doesn't happen. Of course most of us have never seen someone camcorder a movie-there are 38,000 first run movie screens in the US and it only takes one to pirate at one screening to get a copy. There was an article in In Focus (NATO mag) recently about how until last year all the camcordering theft was coming from 5 states and last year it spread to 6 more or something like that.
Studio screeners that flash 'this is a screener' every five minutes are obviously not the problem. The studio my have come up with a variety of dumb ways to fight piracy but if it was as simple as cutting off studio screeners I think they would.
Posted by Kevin Raisler (Member # 1761) on 03-16-2007, 01:53 PM:
It's NOT the Customers its the STAFF ![[evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-16-2007, 05:52 PM:
quote: Bobby Henderson
What's silly is music companies expecting to charge upwards of $20 for bare bones music CDs, even ones that are pretty old. Wait a few months after a movie has been released on DVD and that $15 to $20 price drops to $10-$15 and then $7 and then $5. You hardly ever see any price discounts like that on music, unless the CD release was just crap and didn't sell worth a damn even when new.
The above paragraph is wrong from beginning to end.
No music company is charging "upwards of $20" for bare-bones CDs. The list price of Universal (the largest company) new releases is $13.99, and the list price of new releases from all the other companies varies from $14.98 to $18.98 depending on whether the artist is new or established, and anybody who can't find huge discounts off of those prices is an idiot. Any American should be able to find any CD for at least 20% off of its suggested list price.
The idea that music never gets discounted is wrong, too. Any music store worth a damn discounts new releases, and every major label has a catalog division that discounts older titles. Music may not move to the "oldie" list as soon as movies do, its true, but good music can have a longer shelf life than even major movies do. Pink Floyd's DARK SIDE OF THE MOON is still one of the 200 top selling albums over 20 years after it came out, so why in the hell should it be discounted simply because it's old?
The only reason that DVDs drop in price so fast is to clear out the stock, so when the sequel to the movie comes out, the movie company can issue a new, "Special Unrated Director's Cut Edition" disk of the original with three minutes of extra footage and a fancy box, and sell that for the high price.
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 05-08-2007, 02:53 PM:
Warner Bros. announced Monday that it will no longer hold preview (market research & other early release type) screenings of their films in Canada. Because of the piracy problem that Fox brought up earlier.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-08-2007, 03:51 PM:
The pricing pattern on new DVDs seems more like 20%-40% discounts at initial release, then it jumps to full retail, then at some point it becomes "catalog" and the price starts falling in some kind of tiered structure until it ends up in the $4.97 bargain bin at Wal-Mart.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-08-2007, 04:16 PM:
The fact remains that new DVD releases and music CDs (both new and old) are priced at pretty similar levels. The DVDs simply have a lot more effort and content going into them than music CDs.
Old music CDs don't get their prices slashed at anywhere near the proportion that takes place with DVD. If you're interested in buying a music release that came out 10 or 20 years ago you might save a couple of bucks if you're lucky. More often than not you will be paying just as much as you would for a new release.
The argument of "you have to shop around" doesn't hold up either. When "shopping around" for the best deals on both music CD and DVD, the DVD format usually comes up with the steepest discounts.
The only way I find a music CD on sale in a store for around the $4-$7 price range of close out DVDs you see at some places like Wal-Mart is by way of the used CD racks. And usually for the disc to get down in that sub $5 bracket the item is not usually in good condition.
Posted by Ron Keillor (Member # 1790) on 05-08-2007, 07:00 PM:
Warner pulls previews over film piracy
Katie Rook
National Post
Monday, May 07, 2007
TORONTO - Film piracy is so rampant in Canada that one of the world's largest movie studios Monday banned advanced previews and radio promotions country-wide.
Ocean's Thirteen and Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix were the first releases affected by the move. Warner Bros.' Canadian arm cited a gap in the criminal code that prevents bootleggers from being charged.
Movies pirated in Canada made up 20% of the world's bootleg DVDs in 2005, resulting in about $118-million in losses, according to the Canadian Motion Picture Distributors Association.
Warner Bros. has observed a concentration of Canada-based piracy since May 2005 when videotaping a film in the U.S. became a federal offence, he said.
"The problem just shifted north," he said. "[Bootleggers] will continue to go to areas that protect them. You talk to theatre owners in Canada ... [if] they catch someone camcording and call the police, the police won't even come."
The ban will not affect press reviews or television publicity. Recent releases videotaped in Canada include In the Land of Women, and 300, he said.
Posted by Michael Gonzalez (Member # 593) on 05-09-2007, 02:44 PM:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070509/ap_en_mo/canada_film_piracy
quote:
TORONTO - Canadian film lovers hoping to catch an early peek at "Ocean's Thirteen" and the upcoming Harry Potter sequel will be out of luck after Warner Bros. canceled all of its advance screenings and accused Canada of being at the forefront of the piracy market. Darcy Antonellis, Warner Bros.' senior vice president of worldwide anti-piracy operations, defended the move Tuesday, saying weak Canadian copyright rules have made the country a haven for organized crime syndicates to make and sell illegal DVDs.
It is currently not a criminal offense in Canada to make recordings of movies in theaters for personal use. In order to prosecute a pirate, there must be proof that the copy of the film is being made for commercial purposes.
"Canada does have the highest camcording rate (by individuals in theaters) of any other territory," Antonellis said Tuesday by phone from Los Angeles.
"This is eliminating one of the avenues of leaks that we have already identified."
Warner Bros. said roughly 70 per cent of its releases have been pirated in Canada over the last 18 months.
The studio's ban on advance screenings, affecting roughly a dozen Canadian cities, will begin immediately.
I have to say that I was unaware that Canadian law actually permits someone to make their own copy of a screening. That has to be exaggrated. At least I would think so.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-09-2007, 03:48 PM:
Can't theaters post a policy that cameras aren't allowed and will be confiscated? And anyone who's caught with one would at least be guilty of trespassing.
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 05-09-2007, 04:18 PM:
If camcordering a movie isn't illegal the theatre would have no legal grounds to keep someone's camera. At most they could hang on to it until the show was done-which would stop that piracy attempt of course. The issue from the studios viewpoint I suppose is that there are no consequences for being caught videotaping a movie besides maybe being asked to leave.
Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 05-09-2007, 06:15 PM:
All of this is the film company's way of forcing the Canadian Government to pass the laws they want.
Simple politics.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-09-2007, 08:12 PM:
Oddly enough I think I heard in one of the meetings I attended when this topic was brought up...the law as it stands now is that the camcordering person can be asked to leave the theatre and that is about it. It is like the law recognizes it is wrong but has next to zero penalty associated with it. It is the equivalent of saying "shame on you" and that is about it.
Someone from Canada would have to speak as to why such a serious copyright infringement thing from an industry that moves a fair chunk of change around can't have a law passed rather easily. What or who is the opposition to such a thing?
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-09-2007, 09:18 PM:
Based on our juriprudence It would have ramifications on other indusrties
Even with the charter of rights (our constitution) common law preveals
Also the supreme court has upheld a very broad definition of fair use and it is very difficult to go over the head of the supreme court with legeslation it would probably stike down
As to the penalty issues all one has to look at the slap in the wrist penalties for fraud in Canada
Again Warner Brothers has a choice of doing or not doing business here they cannot dictate to the government what the laws are
And I would not be suprised that if the US film companies made enough of a international fuss then theatres would have legsalted minium canadian content laws and probably income of forgein product would be required to be reinvested into the domestic film industy as many other countries do
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