This is topic Drive-In questions in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001955
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 11-28-2007, 07:50 PM:
I haven't run a drive in since about 1983 or so. I guess I was over a drive-in in 1985 still but I didn't run it I was City Manager then. So I have a few questions.
1. What do the film companies charge for % now?
2. Do drive-ins still get charged less for first run than indoor theaters?
3. What is the protection zone around theaters where they have to share product rather than open at the same product on day and date?
4. Can you still do Car Load specials?
I ask this because I know someone that is looking at opening a Drive-In after the first of the year!
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-28-2007, 08:47 PM:
I can answer a few of these just from being here, although I don't run a drive-in.
1. Depends on the movie, but usually starting at 70% for the first week and going down from there -- but sometimes starting at 60% and for a potential flop movie, maybe 50%. If you're playing off the break, usually 35% or 40% unless the movie is a mega-hit, then it could be a bit higher if you're playing in the first month or so...well, like I said, it depends on the movie.
2. I don't think so, but there are no restrictions on "stacking" two movies like there are for indoor theatres. (A stupid rule.)
3. Are you kidding? That's hilarious. No. If you can gross, you can play.
4. See below. (Edited to move incorrect answer)
Why doesn't your friend register here and ask questions? There's a lot of drive-in knowledge here.
[ 11-29-2007, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Mike Blakesley ]
Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 11-28-2007, 09:14 PM:
Some one correct me if I am wrong but I thought today that the drive-ins are getting decidedly lower percentage deals than first run indoor venues for product on the break or a couple of weeks after the break. From what I am being told they supposedly are here in my area of Central Pennsylvania.
For example one of the things I have seen in my area is where a drive-in opens a picture on break (say for two weeks as the first picture) and then in the third week drops that same picture to the second feature position behind a new blockbuster that is opening on break as the first feature, the drive-ins have been able to keep the hold-over film (that is now moved into second position at the beginning of the third week) for as low as 10% (All this while the indoors may still be paying as much as 50% or more for that same feature). The reason I am told is that the distributor of the holdover film wants to be able to claim the full amount of the new blockbuster gross as part of the reported total for the holdover film. In this example I am talking about films from two different distributors.
Back when I used to do drive-in booking there were a lot of "combo deals" of two pictures from the same company but I understand this doesn't happen that much any more.
[ 11-28-2007, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan M. Crist ]
Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 11-28-2007, 10:14 PM:
My understanding was as long as you kept the main feature and co-feature within the same distributor you could get a good deal. It's when you start mixing distributors that each studio wants their fair 70%.
Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 11-29-2007, 09:44 AM:
Scott's got it. We alway play double features from the same studios... to take advantage of the studio combo deals. The studios do it to pad the numbers of the lesser performing movie, as the gross is usually split 50/50 with their own movies. Why else would you play "Spiderman 2" with "White Chicks"? It's a win - win for both the drive-in operator and the studios. Like Scott said, when you start mixing up studios and pairing films from different distributors, they both want their high percentage rates, and most drive-ins owners (I'll include myself in that) can't afford to do it.
From my understanding some studios will not let you open a movie on the break if you have carload pricing.. I know for a fact Warner Brothers won't. But why would you want to have car load pricing anyway? Carload pricing attracts a "different" type of clientel that usually doesn't spend alot of money on concessions anyway.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-29-2007, 10:17 AM:
So they DO allow carload pricing? Does that result in a different percentage deal? How much does a typical "carload" cost these day?
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-29-2007, 11:17 AM:
The studios don't directly ban carload pricing, because they can't legally force what you charge, if anything. However, as you probably know, they CAN enforce a per-capita admission. Lately, we've received letters that remind us of this policy, though we've always been higher than the minimum that would generate that kind of deal. The studios could also refuse to book you "on the break" by enforcing their pass restrictions. Technically, you're charging the driver and letting everyone else in for free. That doesn't work very well for the studio, so why would they be excited about sending you a brand-new print? I think it's still something like 2%, though some of those letters even restrict employee showings.
I haven't heard that the studios have a heartache over carload pricing for sub-run bookings, but there are only a couple of drive-ins (over on the east-side) that I've seen get a carload price on the break. That was a couple of years ago, so it may not be happening now.
A carload policy does not result in a different percentage deal. The studios aren't going to give you a lower percentage because you choose to give their product away. If anything, you'll probably be looking for flat-rentals on your co-features as a way of reducing your costs, because you're not bringing in much boxoffice income to begin with. That will reduce the quality of your overall presentations, imho.
Your boxoffice report will show the number of tickets sold, though that will be in terms of cars, not actual people. The percentage will be calculated based on your gross, as usual. I don't remember ever getting a worse, or better deal based on how I charged, though better grosses do seem to generate more positive attention.
Barry is right about the kind of crowd that carloads tend to attract. Many of them either don't have much money to begin with, or spend what they do have at the local "beverage outlet". In any case, the per-caps are pretty low with these crowds. Also (from our own experience in the past), vandalism and the levels of trash are much higher, as are cases of "negative customer interaction". Generally speaking, the less your customers invest in your product, the less they respect what you offer... which includes your facilities and staff. If you get tired of dealing with it and go to a per-capita admission, you'll get rid of the rowdies pretty much immediately, but it'll take you anywhere from 2 to 5 seasons to redevelop your clientele.
The drive-in environment is a special place that more families are seeking out. I'm not sure why some owners feel they need to give this away, but it's not something I subscribe to. You can't get the experience we offer anywhere else, whether we manage to get 16fL on our screens or not. It's also a lot of work. We commonly put in a full day before we open for a full night. It makes for a long summer, but it is a lot of fun.
Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 11-29-2007, 11:18 AM:
I'm not sure how carload pricing works as it relates to your nightly or weekly boxoffice reports... we've never done it and never will. We charge "per person" and always have an accurate count of both the number of cars on the field as well as the number of people in those cars. Without those numbers it would be impossible to calcualte your "per caps" on concession sales as well as total nightly attendance. Each screen has its own colored and numbered tickets for both the adult and child tickets, so figuring out "how many people" are on a particular screen is not that difficult.
This year our "patron per car" average went up as opposed to years past. We had been averaging 2.3 people per car consistantly, but 2007 we saw that number go up to 2.7 for the yearly average.
In "my opinion" (take it for what it's worth) a charge "per person" has a greater "percieved value" more so than the "see how many we can cram in a car" scenerio. We're charging $7.00 per person for adults and $3.00 per person for kids. The only drive-in close to mine that has carload pricing charges $9.00 a carload.
Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 11-29-2007, 11:31 AM:
quote:
Barry Floyd
...[W]hen you start mixing up studios and pairing films from different distributors, they both want their high percentage rates, and most drive-ins owners (I'll include myself in that) can't afford to do it.
Years ago drive-in double features from the same studio were the norm. In addition to the percentage combos, distributors often sold the main feature percentage with a cheap flat rate (from the same studio) for the second feature (e.g. $150 for the second feature - which amount could itself be deducted from the rental payment amount determined due for the first feature).
However today .... at least in my area...... I am seeing eye-popping combos from different studios. Case in point the Haars Drive In in Dillsburg Pa (www.haars.com) this summer opened "Transformers" on the national break with "Live Free or Die Hard" as the second feature. Haars had not yet played Die Hard which was then only in its second week of release. And Haars is open weekends only! This is the heart of Pennsylvania dutch country where everyone is proud of how frugal they are. I doubt the owners paid big bucks for that combo.
And for the second week of Transformers the Haars got a different second feature (I do not recall the title).
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-29-2007, 11:44 AM:
quote: Jonathan M. Crist
Years ago drive-in double features from the same studio were the norm. In addition to the percentage combos, distributors often sold the main feature percentage with a cheap flat rate
That's true. But back then, distribution wasn't so wide, cable and home video (tape, dvd, satellite) wasn't prevalent (or even available), so a title had a much longer life. You could book a co-feature 3 or 4 months out, maybe get it flat, and it might still have legs. Nowadays, pretty much anything you can get flat has been out on DVD for some time, and isn't much of a draw for any kind of theatre.
It is more common, at least among drive-ins that book close to the break, to see percentage deals on both features... usually from the same studio, but not always. As noted above, the total gross for the screen is applied to both films (there is no division claimed on the boxoffice report), so there can be benefits for both sides here. Frequently, both features could be playing as singles in local indoor houses, but the grosses could generate the same kind of returns as if they had been booked separately... especially for a weaker co-feature.
I couldn't speak for the Haar's deal, though it is not something you'd see commonly. I also doubt that regional frugality would have mattered. I'd bet they paid a pretty hefty percentage to get a very good, if not unusual booking. The studio may have gone for it in this case, because tagging along with Transformers would have guaranteed grosses for Die Hard that it couldn't have generated with any other picture. I'd even be willing to speculate that Die Hard "grossed" better in its second week with Transformers than it did in its own first week as the headliner at that theatre.
Single screen theatres frequently have to be more creative about their double feature booking, since they don't usually have the holdover capabilities that a multi would have. In order to keep the normal clientele happy, they usually have to turn their pictures over faster, resulting in higher overall percentages for the season. The smaller drive-ins we had were lucky to get two weeks out of a new film, much less the 3 or 4 that the studios would prefer. Under those conditions, your customers would only have one new opportunity to patronize you each month... not such a good deal for a Summertime business.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-29-2007, 12:38 PM:
Barry - do you have much trouble with people sneaking people inside the trunk of the car, and that sort of thing? That's something I always heard about people doing, but never actually saw when I worked at the drive-in here.
Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 11-29-2007, 02:02 PM:
Not really a problem with the "trunk sneakers" as much as it is with the "beer sneakers". We have a zero tolernace policy on any form of alcohol at our place, and the college-aged crowd seems to think that that rule really doesn't apply to them.
From the very few times I've actually worked down in the ticket booth, my hardest issue with admission has been seeing thru the tinted windows of the SUV's & mini vans to verify the number of occupants in the vehicles. All and all for the most part people are honest.
Another problem we have at our place are the ones who try to move from field to field during intermission. Right now we don't have a physical fence to keep them from jumping fields, but our parking attendants watch like hawks and keep them from doing so.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-29-2007, 02:09 PM:
The last three seasons, I've pulled a Sunday eve shift at our local DrIn in the area (in which I began this crazy film career at a "ozoner" and never worked in a "hardtop" until 4 yrs later..) and we run subrun movies. Thus our tix prices are simply 6 bucks for 12 and up and 11 and under get in free.
Doing sub rums, film rentals are cheap and films easy to get since don't have to compete with the 1st runs.
(There's buzz in the works that I might take over this DriveIn for next season...but have to wait and see...)
Working in an "ozoner" is definitely different that doing "hardtops" by a long shot .. seems more funner due to the much larger types of crowds (mainly families that comes out to ours....) and the more variety in the snakbar..
-Monte
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-29-2007, 10:57 PM:
Hope that works out for you, Monte. Sounds like you've been part of that operation for a long time.
We get sneakers from time to time. Over the long haul, Cindy (who manages our boxoffices) and our field staff have developed a sort of radar for this kind of thing... nervous singles, trunks that ride too low, stuff like that. It's not a major part of our lives, but it is an ingredient of the whole drive-in picture. Basically, everything that ever happened at a drive-in is still going on, though the balance is probably different! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
We found that making an announcement when the lights to up at credits, stating that cars may not be moved between fields, has reduced that particular problem by at least 90%. That's on a recording our system now plays on each screen as soon as their light cues hit. We mix that in with exit directions, thanks for attending, second features coming up after a short intermission... etc.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-30-2007, 03:38 AM:
Thx, Jack - definitely have to wait and see, but not holding my breath, obviously. Doesn't work out, it was meant to be.
Yet, started in this "ozoner" as a projectionist, never started in the yard, box or concession, yet, have performed work in all departments, including yard cleanup during the day.
When I was off, sometimes I would volunteer to do yardboy work, checking speakers before opening, help park cars, jot down license plates where the cars were parked at, so if a speaker was cut off the line (we didn't have the REED speakers with the steel cable within the audio cable, ours was the the old round 8inch can type and no security cable within..), we had a good success rate of getting that speaker back with help from the sheriff dept.
I was like your boxlady Jack, when I would do box...it was easy to notice those oddities in vehicles where I would radio back in the building for the yardboy to check out this particular vehicle and amazing how the percentage rate of catching sneak-in was very high with our 'spy' system.
Our big thing was the exit side of the yard where we had the one way spiked treadles and how many sneak-ins would lose tires do to those spiked treadles - esp with a well-lit warning sign of the treadle usage.
Then during intermission, we had quite the setup for yard flood lights that did a very good job of lighting the yard so that everyone was seen and could be kept track of..
Yes, I had fun working in a Drive-In and would recommend those who've never worked in one to give it a try ... a whole new world to be in.
-Monte
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-24-2007, 04:31 PM:
Okay to answer the question asked of me why my friend doesn't join he is a computer idiot! And it would appear that he isn't a very good at deal making when came clean on a few things. At one point this summer he Ran Ratatollo on the break with another on the break film and ended up paying 90% of his box office (hum however it is spelled.) The he opened on the break Transformers and put another very new one with it and added a third picture from Warner Bros total percent paid (according to him) 110 of box office. Now I can see that would make it impossible to make a profit.
I have been reading your information as the company I work for is very much wanting to get their hands on the Drive-In and I will end up overseeing it if they do. I have tried to give them advice (like you really don't want to playing the stuff we are) but they seem to think that makes some kind of sense to do so.
They opened up a triple feature from Disney at Thanksgiving of Enchanted (which we had) and Underdog and football one from Disney as well. It was cold during the time they had it and averaged 3 to 4 cars a night over the Thrusday to Sunday. We were packed on it they had to play that combo until they opened Friday with National Treasure (of course we were in a snow storm at the time) They are only running from Friday to Sunday but open for holidays as well.
I have tried to pass on your information but he is determined to do it his way or rather their way. It is a husband and wife time he makes a living doing roofing she quit a full time job this year.
I'm not sure how long they can continue they have a lease though August of next year I think! I have encouraged them to run second run and off break on things we don't run but they seem to think this is the way to do it. They are way to cheep on the concessions so I just don't know how they are making it.
Sorry it took so long for me to put back in to this!
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-25-2007, 12:45 PM:
My days working in DIs was when I was a babe of 19yr. And I just worked the booth so I was not privy to how bookings were done, but I do remember that we played double features from different studios all the time. Here at the indoor, I booked double bill titles but from the same studio and from different studios all the time, but these were classics, not current and the studios always had the percentage of each title halfed so they added up to what we normally would pay for a single, i.e., 35 or 40%. It was always easy from the same studio, sometimes you would have to haggle if you were trying to book from two, but almost always they did the halving thing. In other words, if they normal percentager for the two, if played alone were 35%, the studios would charge us 17.5% for each. I was always amazed that they would do this, basically loosing half their take while the theatre kept its 65%. On occasion I would wind up having to pay 50 and 60% when two studios weren't willing to half their percentage because they would claim THEIR title was the bigger hit than the other one I wanted to team it up with. In any event, I never would book double feature if I couldn't negotiate at least 50% of the gross.
As for car load ticketing, of the three DIs I worked in, all in Texas, and as far back as the 70s, none ever charged by the car load...it was always per capita. Personally I can't see how car-load pricing would ever be even remotely acceptable to the studios. I mean, that would be the same as if an indoor set up a box office at the entrance of its parking lot and collected its admission by the car load out there, and then let however many piled out of the cars into the theatre to see the movie. Don't the studios insist that you pay for the number of PEOPLE watching their movie? I really don't understand how a studio could allow car load pricing as they are so anal about other things like the restriction of passes for staff screenings! Or not allowing staff into preview screenings. Yet they have no problem eating carloads of people who get in for free? Doesn't make a lot of sense.
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-26-2007, 01:24 PM:
Frank I think it is looked on like the two for one discount that some towns do on Tuesday nights. I think they see no problem as long as it doesn't go below the minimum for the area! With that said on a car load night you might drop below the minimum but who would know for sure since you aren't counting the people. It is a good promo to use on the slowest night of the week.
Well this one for the books on Christmas Eve my friend from the drive in came in our theater his whole family to see Alvin and the Chipmunks. I asked why they weren't running on Christmas Eve and he said "forgot to advertise that we would be open for the holidays so decided to just not open up for either Christmas Eve or Day."
Oh well I don't see why the have been open in December anyway! He says he is going to run weekends year round and my not even do though the week during summer! Sad really. I can understand the weekends only during the school year I don't see staying open past October or before March it just doesn't get you the bottom line! I can't see the weekends only in the summer either Disney (among others) usually wont book to a weekend only theater on the break!
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-26-2007, 02:37 PM:
quote: Ron Funderburg
At one point this summer he Ran Ratatollo on the break with another on the break film and ended up paying 90% of his box office (hum however it is spelled.) The he opened on the break Transformers and put another very new one with it and added a third picture from Warner Bros total percent paid (according to him) 110 of box office. Now I can see that would make it impossible to make a profit.
There's no way the studio will take 90% or 110% unless he isn't even grossing enough to make the minimums, in which case why bother being in business?
If it's a two-studio deal, then as Frank says if it can't be negotiated to where he keeps at least 50% then it's better to just run one movie by itself.
This guy sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. He won't take advice from seasoned pros -- and running a drive-in in Oklahoma in the winter? I shudder to think what else is happening, presentation-wise, in that venue.
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-26-2007, 10:56 PM:
Mike he is running two and three different film companies at times (when he runs three films he has had three film companies). I have given him friendly advice several times that he needs to rethink how is booking and talk to me in advance and lets try not to run the same product at the same time. His answer was he didn't think that was necessary.
I had a packed parking lot a lot of whom (who or whom?) were watching National Treasure he had 13 cars on Saturday night so I am having trouble understanding how he is paying lease!
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-26-2007, 11:57 PM:
Why "ozoners" should be doing sub or discount runs - to get away from those aggragated percentages along with the minimum week play contracts and make the moolah in the lesser percentage agreements, keeping the film as long as they want and along with doing the dbl feature setup if their business is struggling and trying to keep up with the "Big Lions".
Sadly, those days where the 1st run features playing in an "ozoner" is getting on the thin side, yet I congratulate those "ozoners" who are being successful in doing this programming since they've got their cliental coming back on a regular basis, plus the atmosphere that they are giving to the public.
-Monte
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-27-2007, 12:33 PM:
quote: Frank Angel
Personally I can't see how car-load pricing would ever be even remotely acceptable to the studios.
Back when it was more common, many of us were running MONTHS behind the break. Co-features were usually bought flat. We were pretty much squeezing the last blood out of the turnip, so I doubt the studios really cared much how we did it. Obviously, that's not the case today, with the windows being as short as they are.
quote: Monte
Sadly, those days where the 1st run features playing in an "ozoner" is getting on the thin side,
It's not uncommon in multi-screen drive-ins, Monte. You can hang on to the film, and "mix 'n match" the co-features as the cost moderates out. All the multi-screeners around here are first-run.
I do know of one multi in New Mexico that's sub-run, but they also play only single features, so their situation must be somewhat different. We tried the single-feature idea back in the mid-'90s. It didn't work well at all.
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-27-2007, 12:55 PM:
Jack he is a single screen and he is often playing two new release films at the same time day and date with us. I have no complaint of him doing what he wants with his theater but he isn't making money and in particular he isn't making money right now. Not with 13 cars on the lot on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights. I have been out to visit and seen as few as 4 cars in the lot on a Saturday night. 2 concession workers and he & his wife sitting in the empty concession area and saying well they will come on the next release.
I guess he rejects my advice based on the fact I work for the competition but they are pouring money in right now they have to be and there is no sense (or Dollars and Cents) to what they are doing.
The owner of the property has called the folks I work and let them know the property may be available soon for us to lease. I don't care one way or the other about having more to oversee but I hate to see them not making good choices for whatever reason.
Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 12-27-2007, 02:28 PM:
quote:
Sadly, those days where the 1st run features playing in an "ozoner" is getting on the thin side,
Like Jack said... it's not uncommon for us multi-screen drive-ins to play on the break. Now that we have two screens, we're able to open a fresh new print almost each week of the season.
Opening a new film, paired with another good one (although older) from the same studio can return fantastic rewards if the crowds and weather cooperate. Memerial Day weekend, we opened Pirates 3, paired it with Wild Hogs, and Screen 2 was paired with Shrek 3 and Disturbia. The result was sell-out crowds on both screens Friday, Saturday & Sunday. The Saturday night of Memorial Day weekend, we brought in more money on that one night than we did for the entire month of November!
We've thought about trying to stay open throughout the winter, but it just doen't make financial sense for our area and climate. We run from March thru Thanksgiving weekend, and once we're able to save up enough to close earlier in the season we will. We stay open in November soley for the purpose of paying the mortgage. In Tennessee, we have "film minimums" and during November, we almost always end up paying the minimums.
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-27-2007, 02:39 PM:
Barry your approach makes perfect sense and I have tried to talk my friend in to talking to other Drive-In operators to get a better handle on how to run. We talked a lot last year when they first started and I think they did pretty good last year but this year they have just plain dumb booking, not that the films are bad but new opens day and date from different film companies, and staying open now with hardly any customers because he told people he would? Well I don't know maybe he is right and he will have dividends down the road! I know the landlord wouldn't be calling us if things were all good over there so I worry for them.
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-27-2007, 06:22 PM:
Ron, it takes a while to figure a market out.
Our experience is that it can take anywhere from 3 to 5 years of "cut & try" to work out what will be supported in your area. If you change a major part of your operation, it can be painful. We still have people looking for carload pricing that we dropped 18 years ago! Others are sure we took their check last month. We stopped that when we began taking credit cards... also quite a few years back.
Some like the first-run concept. Others are fine with sub-run. Some drive-ins feel they have to add activities like putt-putt golf, mini-carnivals and huge swap meets. Others do fine just running film. Some drive-ins play their "B" film twice. Some do triple features. Others are fine with the simple double feature, and then there are those who seem to make singles work.
Seasons take some time to figure out. In our area, business drops by 2/3 when school starts, then drops by 50% each week through September. By the end of the month, pretty much everyone is busy with school-related activities. We finally figured that out and now we pull the plug at the end of September, regardless of weather or film availability.
Community morals also vary from place to place. I can run pretty much everything below NC17 here. Others don't run anything stronger than PG or PG13.
Then there's the snack bar, where you might also do a lot of trial and error. There are a lot of foods we've tried over the years. Some have done very well... others have not. The trick is being willing to drop the poor producers. The work involved in keeping a huge menu up can blow your whole day. Brands can also be regionally specific. "Red Vines" are hugely popular over here. "Twizzlers" were much less known until a Tennessee-based chain brought them over. I personally think the stuff tastes like a barely-flavored wax-like product, but I guess they have a reason for selling it.
All of this is just fine, and reflects the owner's willingness to provide a product the community wants and will support.
It may be that your owners aren't entirely stupid. If they try something, it doesn't work and they try something else, that's smart. If they don't learn from their experiences, that may be where an opportunity might eventually show itself.
Patience!
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-27-2007, 06:48 PM:
I do agree with you Jack on how your business is being ran and what the market area is - both in film and in snakbar and I've heard that if you sell chips, it'll take away from the popcorn sales, but once agai, that's a demographic condition and have to be a trial and error sort of thing to find the answer (and at this one drive-in that I pull that one shift at - licquorice ropes are the king over RedVines since kids devour those ropes..)
This Drive-In is in a town close to 37k people and the only screen in this town. We're working on getting the other screen open, but some bumps to complete this project is still in the works. Also, they only do discount runs and I've asked the owner on the possibility of doing 1st runs on the break, but those decisions on upgrading to the 1st runs haven't been met yet.
Sadly, about 20 yrs ago, this drive in had all three screens blaring away with 1st run movies and in full 7 day operation. Now, just open on Fri Sat and Sun and presently shooting on the center screen.
(this is where I pull the occasional Sunday night shift at and been doing it for the last 3 seasons..)
-Monte
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-27-2007, 06:58 PM:
quote: Jack Ondracek
Others are sure we took their check last month. We stopped that when we began taking credit cards...
Why would you stop taking checks when starting to take credit cards? You're giving up 2 to 4% of the credit card sale, whereas you give up $0 on checks. (Unless you get bad ones, of course.) We've taken checks here forever, started taking cards 2 years ago but have noticed very little change in the amount of checks we get.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-27-2007, 07:18 PM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
Why would you stop taking checks when starting to take credit cards
...That's an easy no-brainer on that one, and that one, once again, is a demographic situation.
Mike, you're out there in a small town all by yourself where the trust level is probably very high, whereas Jack's area could be more problematic where he had no choice to drop off accepting checks - both in boxoffice and the snakbar.
At our small circuit, we used to take checks as well, (I hated them due that it really slowed down the "production line and time" in getting customers serviced, esp. in the boxoffice line),but the bounce from the NSF checks really began to take effect to where we had no choice to drop them and switch over to card machines - which in a way, was a tremendous blessing that it increased our snakbar sales very much since people are using plastic nowdays, people can buy more easilly, and the sales are always guaranteed in payment to the owner.
Also, if the attendant asks if Debit or Credit (and preferably debit), the debit card fee is only $.50 for the transaction. Even though if you're running the cards as credit, the amount of those large sales will easilly offset the fees charged, plus one can easilly raise the price of the more popular items by a quarter to offset that fee charge as well.
Those NSF check fees are horrible to the business owner when they really begin to pile up.
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-27-2007, 07:57 PM:
Well this guy doesn't have to re-invent the Drive it worked great under the previous operator (who helped him last year) and if he hadn't changed it we would both have had good markets (when the market is good) and not been cutting each others throats. We are only 2.2 miles apart and most film companies told him that was to close together for us to run the same product but Disney, Dreamworks and one other film company (can't remember which) told him it was against the rules and common sense to run the same but they would allow it. But he has to play the film for the same length of time as us when opens on the break.
Our business is up over last year (in every month of the year) so I took over the operation the first week of July 2006 when the new owners took over. We put a lot of money in on a remodel and put in Digital sound the grosses being up tells me we are doing something right.
He is a nice guy a bit strange and I wish him luck but it just is crazy to be doing what he is doing on some of it!
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-27-2007, 09:04 PM:
....unless he's using the place as a 'tax shelter' to write off...
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-28-2007, 02:20 AM:
quote: Ron Funderburg
We put a lot of money in on a remodel and put in Digital sound the grosses being up tells me we are doing something right.
I always wondered about that in a DI --Given that sound it piped thru an FM transmitter and the dynamic range of that FM transmission/receiver system really precludes using anywhere near the digital system's full dynamic range (in fact, some operators find they need to install compressors to actually REDUCE the dynamic range to the transmitter so as to avoid overmodulation, distortion and the like), the thought that runs thru my mind is, wouldn't spending $$ on installing digital be money wasted -- especially in a business that is not turning over large surpluses?
Can an audience listening on a car FM radio, no matter how good it is, can they actually, REALLY tell the difference between a good SR playback and digital? I mean good in the sence that it is preceived as a real improvement instead of just, "Oh, babe, this DI has digital sound....it must be good." Not that that kind of positive perception, even if it is imaginary, can't translate into less tangible things like patron loyalty, the patron feeling they get more for their money at your DI as opposed to the competion. Just wondering.
And the reason I ask is that, all I know is, when my DTS drops out and SR kicks in, my SR is tweaked to as good as that system can put out and I'll be damned if anyone in the theatre to a person can tell which is which, except for the Ls / Rs separation....but of course you wouldn't even have surround in an FM reception.
I'd put my money in Dolby's Virtual Surround, where a surround channel is actually simulated with just two speakers. I think that would have more of a WOW factor than digital. I think it would be much more noticeable than getting digital off the film tracks. And since the Virtual Surround is processed in the digital domain, you can always SAY you have digital sound....and you won't go to hell for saying it either. ![[evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-28-2007, 04:07 AM:
Prob, with DTS in a Drive-In is to plumb L,C,R,S (4 channel conversion of the DTS unit by switching the surrounds to mono output) from the processor into a mixer to shoot out two channels into the FM transmitter, and boost up the wattage to a 1 watt coverage.
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-28-2007, 10:49 AM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
Why would you stop taking checks when starting to take credit cards? You're giving up 2 to 4% of the credit card sale, whereas you give up $0 on checks.
Monte nailed it, Mike. We aren't in an area where we know most of our customers. We had people bounce checks as low as $4. When those come back it's hard to get anyone to take it seriously. I'm not interested in confronting these people myself, so it's either the cops or a check guarantee company. A bounced check is worth $300 plus 3 times the face value in this state, and the police are supposed to go get it for you. If the "bounce-er" didn't have $4, he/she probably doesn't have $312 plus the $40 NSF fee that just got dumped on the account.
Then there's the time it takes to ID the customer... pull out the drivers license, write all the info down, hope the license is current and they haven't moved. Check guarantee companies don't eliminate the transaction time, and they add monthly fees.
Credit cards are a way of life here. EVERYBODY has one. The fees are about the only downside, and are a business expense, as far as I'm concerned. They process as fast as cash and the customers frequently pull them out first. They also spend more when they can use their plastic. We see that here all the time.
quote: Ron Funderburg
Well this guy doesn't have to re-invent the Drive it worked great under the previous operator
Privileges of ownership! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote: Frank Angel
I always wondered about that in a DI --Given that sound it piped thru an FM transmitter and the dynamic range of that FM transmission/receiver system really precludes using anywhere near the digital system's full dynamic range
We've chatted that one here, I think.
Yes. On the surface, SR should be (and is) more than a drive-in NEEDS and can handle. Drive-ins also used to have cheesie 4-inch window speakers, and a lot of people were fine with that.
Some of it can be applied to "bragging rights", I guess. On the other hand, if you have the ability to switch between digital and REAL Dolby SR, there are differences you can hear.
A drive-in would need compression with anything except maybe unprocessed analog sound. Running multiple sources almost makes compression/limiting a necessity. SR is said to have near 80dB range. Digital has more. You don't get much more than 40 out of FM, so a system without limiters always have the ability to overdrive a transmitter... either that, or your customers would always be twiddling with the volume control.
Digital has less distortion. The highs are better, you don't have any issues with analog wow & flutter. There is a difference, though it might not be the best first-purchase for a drive-in without the equipment to process and transmit it. Digital can be a pain for those who prefer to load their film and just hit the start button. Your projectors have to be in good shape and kept clean. There's additional equipment to maintain and keep aligned and, if you have DTS, there's the worry over whether you get the disks or not. The difference in quality has been worth the extra effort, AFAIC. However, I will admit that if your equipment is up to the job and you've done your splices right, it's not likely that a lot of people would listen to your SR and be bummed that you weren't digital.
Digital would not be my first upgrade choice for a drive-in that's sending the output if it's old Motiograph, RCA or Radio Shack speaker amps to the transmitter... and from what I've seen, there are still plenty of them out there.
quote: Monte L Fullmer
Prob, with DTS in a Drive-In is to plumb L,C,R,S (4 channel conversion of the DTS unit by switching the surrounds to mono output) from the processor into a mixer to shoot out two channels into the FM transmitter, and boost up the wattage to a 1 watt coverage.
This is really pretty simple, Monte. Behringer has several desktop and rack-mounted mixers that will do that very easily. The mixers are pretty common. You just have to have one that has active inputs and has enough channels to handle the need. With those mixers you can pull dual-channel mono outputs from single feeds without any loss of separation on the stereo channels. You can use the same process to make your surrounds "mono".
Transmitter output has nothing to do with whether you have digital sound. Matter of fact, one watt is way over the maximum you can legally use anyway, though that's another subject. If you had a TOTALLY quiet channel... like 87.9 in areas without channel 6, you could just about cover a drive-in with a "talking real estate" box. Transmitters that are designed to put out less than a watt are usually designed for the hobbyist, and are of fairly low quality. Up over a watt, you're usually dealing with equipment that radio stations and cable systems could use, so it's more likely you're buying something that performs well and will last.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-28-2007, 11:07 AM:
quote: Jack Ondracek
Monte nailed it, Mike. We aren't in an area where we know most of our customers.
Point taken.
In 1995 at ShoWest, a speaker asked how many in the room did not accept checks at their theatres...then he said, "Shame on you! People don't like to carry cash, so you should be accepting checks." Of course this was before the debit card became so common. It's a different world today, eh?
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-28-2007, 11:11 AM:
Boy, that's for sure!
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-28-2007, 02:25 PM:
Frank I run the indoor in town not the drive-in that is a friend or at least I consider him a friend.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-31-2007, 12:52 AM:
Wonder, with the increased usage of digital, will us "ozoners" be in jeparody of getting films a bit harder, or have to think of converting to digital as well?
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-31-2007, 04:26 AM:
I think it's too soon to tell, Monte. There's been a lot of talk over the past 2 or 3 years, but nobody has actually landed a digital projector at a drive-in as of yet.
As far as your question goes, I'd speculate that anyone's answer right now would be at least 90% speculation... maybe more.
I've always felt that the time to get excited is after the big boys (like Regal & AMC) line up and really get going on full-scale national conversion, instead of putting 2 or 3 projectors in a new 24-screen build and sprinkling a few more here and there. Until then, we're way below the radar. On the other hand, there are those who feel that drive-ins should be more proactive, so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Either way, nothing seems to be cast in stone right now, so your opinion is probably as good as anyone else's.
Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 12-31-2007, 04:35 PM:
quote:
I'd put my money in Dolby's Virtual Surround, where a surround channel is actually simulated with just two speakers. I think that would have more of a WOW factor than digital. I think it would be much more noticeable than getting digital off the film tracks. And since the Virtual Surround is processed in the digital domain, you can always SAY you have digital sound....and you won't go to hell for saying it either. [evil]
20 year old Realsistic graphic equalisers from radio shack featured IMX expaders, which would play with the phasing and create a virtual dolby experience out of 2 channels. I've even used it to create surround channels in recordings for playback in IMAX venues.
quote:
Digital has less distortion. The highs are better,
mmmm, I dont agree with this comment anymore, since the introduction of red light readers, SR analogue sound has vastly improved highs, wow and flutter is not a big issue for many projectors. Overall the results can be stunning
Dolby digitals lossy based compression (average 17 to 1) does mean that subtle audio details can be lost, which will not happen in genuine SR. Most car stereos and FM radio though will be the weak link.
Bragging rights though are the true value and a very real commodity worth every cent invested. If and when you spend money, make sure the audience knows.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-31-2007, 07:01 PM:
quote: Cameron Glendinning
Dolby digitals lossy based compression (average 17 to 1)
(thought it was 12 to 1, SDDS was 8.00:1...oh well..) Why DTS stands out better with just the 4.00:1 compression ratios.
But, is it really worth it do do digital sound under the stars while watching a movie?
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 01-01-2008, 12:16 PM:
quote: Monte L Fullmer
But, is it really worth it do do digital sound under the stars while watching a movie?
Totally subjective, Monte. As you can see, everyone you ask will give you a different answer. We all look at it from our personal perspectives. Cameron's response isn't necessarily wrong, as he sees it, though his take might send you in another direction than mine.
Is it worth it? Jack says "yes". However, all the ducks had lined up for me when I decided to go that route. If you have other priorities or you don't have the money, you can rationalize that nobody can hear whatever your system lacks that mine doesn't. You'll probably be right. Most customers won't know what they aren't hearing (there's no A/B comparison), so they'll take what comes out of their car as being the way it is. Unless it's awful, they might not even think about it. How can you make rational judgments when there's no consistent baseline? EVERY car out here has a sound system that's unique, given the radio, speakers and interior acoustics. Even the number of people in the car and their positions will change how it sounds in there. We have much less control over what they hear than an indoor theatre.
Many of the regulars here are professionals, who obsess over nuance. Ironically, OWNERS tend not to be so focused. The "big picture" is more important to them. Granted, some can be pretty cheap. When I bought this place, it had unprocessed analog sound, through the mic inputs of Bogen public address amplifiers, feeding 4" speakers mounted in acoustically inferior metal window boxes. Those speakers sat outside, slowly corroding in our wonderful Northwest weather. Every speaker sounded different, and the ants, bees and spiders all did their best to add to the adventure. During those years, not one customer ever commented about my lack of thundering bass or stratospheric highs, though I had my own set of words to describe it. If the speaker worked at all, that part of the night was good enough.
My sound is just part of the total package here. It's a part of my place that I've put more focus on than other drive-ins tend to. Other ozoners have much nicer-looking snack bars, better pavement, more recent paint, landscaping, carnivals, live horse rides, motels on-site, dancing Las Vegas showgirls at half-time. Didn't (don't) you do barbecue? I don't. Maybe that makes your place better than mine... at least as far as you see it.
I know of a couple of drive-ins (one owner posts here a lot) that feed their analog readers through Smart boxes, then into TX transmitters that have only wideband comp/limiters to maintain modulation. I've been to one of them, and it sounds pretty good. I doubt that either one looses sleep because they don't have the digital playback boxes, multiband broadcast audio processors and the computer-controlled automation and music playback that I have. If anything, they might correctly feel that their booth is a lot easier to keep going than mine is!
For myself, I'll put my picture, sound, food and staff against anyone else. In those areas, I don't think you can beat me, though the public might be just as happy with your place as mine. If you're a decent operator, you should feel the same about your place.
Bottom line... if you have the money to burn, sure... get digital. But first, make sure your toilets all flush! ![[beer]](graemlins/beer.gif)
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-01-2008, 12:24 PM:
I would think, with today's car sound systems, it would be pretty easy to tell if you were listening to digital sound in a drive-in. I've never been to a drive-in with radio sound yet -- the drive-in here (with window speakers) closed in 1980 -- but I hope to experience it one of these days!
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-01-2008, 06:56 PM:
Mike; as someone stated, FM and the fm matrix are the weak links. Complicating matters is that the Dolby matrix must then be perfect for the two matrixes not to conflict. Did you know that every fm station has a filter at 15,500 Hz to remove all highs? (protect the 19Khz reference carrier.) Louis
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-01-2008, 07:37 PM:
quote: Cameron Glendinning
20 year old Realsistic graphic equalisers from radio shack featured IMX expaders, which would play with the phasing and create a virtual dolby experience out of 2 channels. I've even used it to create surround channels in recordings for playback in IMAX venues.
Ah yes, but that won't allow you to use the Dolby Virtural Surround logo as a marketing tool or as Jack put it as "bragging rights" which is at the core of any improvement you make in the theatre business. Promotion, promotion, promotion!
I know if I owned a DI, I would certainly want to make a BIG deal that I was giving them Surround Sound, just like the indoors. Using a fairly inexpensive piece of comsumer equipment that uses the Dolby Virtual Surround chip (like Sony's DS800 Digital Surround processor), gets the added benefit of being able to use the Dolby logo in promos. I would shout it from the rooftops and get Filmack to make me a snipe faster than you could say "The First Drive-In Featuring Dolby Virtual Surround -- 5.1 Virtual Channels, Just as the Director Intend it to be Heard!"
The Sony Digital Surround Processor features Dolby Virtual Surrond, will take L, C, R, Ls, Rs, from the digital processor and matrix it into a Lt, Rt signal for the FM transmitter OR, it will take the Lt Rt matrixed analog signal from an analog processor and process it with its Virtual Surround chip so that when played thru two speakers, you get what was already the surround signal in the Lt and Rt channels to sound like it's coming from behind you in the car. Lots of computer sound cards and TV sets us this and it is quite impressive - makes you actually turn your head on occasion.
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 01-02-2008, 03:38 PM:
On the Digital Cinema for Drive In Greg claims he is going to do it but he said he was going to have it in before Christmas and that didn't happen so I think he is long on going to and short on doing!
He wants to get digital sound and transmit it on the radio but he is not very technical on this side of it and doesn't know where to start! All in all he talks a lot but we have yet see many changes on the operation of the drive in other than the showing first runs at the same time as us for half as long! I like Greg but I really don't see how he is operating at all unless he has untold wealth stashed away somewhere.
He was suppose to fix the tower (it has siding missing on the south side) and the box office due to the fact that he got so far behind on rent last winter. The property owner would have fixed the problems if he had staid current but he didn't and when they signed the new lease for the year he was required to fix those items. He hasn't and doesn't appear to be in any hurry to do so.
It has been truly cold here most of the time this winter! I can't understand why he is open because he isn't getting enough customers to pay rent!
Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM
6.3.1.2