Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Determining an LPP Print/16mm Print Values

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Posted by Tony L. Hernandez (Member # 3524) on 03-17-2009, 03:46 AM:

Sorry to combine the two topics, but they both go hand-in-hand with my current project.
My boss has put me in charge of inspecting,repairing and evaluating a collection of 16mm film prints that we own and have a tentative buyer for.
My first question is how you determine an "LPP" print. I know one of the many prints currently staring me in the face is LPP but I have no idea which one it is and need to find it.

Also, are there any 16mm buffs on here who would be willing to "buddy up" with me via telephone or email and help me determine the value of these prints? Most are mainstream and arthouse features with some shorts here and there. We hate to see them go but could use the space and most definitely use the extra funds.

PS We are not currently offering these prints for sale to anyone. As I said, we do have a tentative buyer. HOWEVER, one or all of them may go up for sale in the future to anyone should our buyer back out.

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 03-17-2009, 05:48 AM:

For the most part 16mm or any film sales for that matter are usually dictated by demand for a certain print, and then condition. Although seemingly scarce, 16mm film prints were churned out en mass for many years for TV etc, and as such many better known titles have lower prices than obscure or unpopular fare.

My best advice would be to head over to 16mmfilmtalk.com, these guys seem to have realistic prices that don't reflect the insanity often seen on the bay, or sites.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 03-17-2009, 06:56 AM:

quote: Tony L. Hernandez
My first question is how you determine an "LPP" print.

It literally says "EASTMAN LPP SAFETY" right on the film. Check a few sections of the print, look above the sprocket holes, you'll see it in tiny magenta letters.

Of course, all Kodak print stock made after about 1982 or so (7384 and after) are low fade by their very nature, so they stopped printing it on the film in the early 1990s.

[ 03-17-2009, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Mark Ogden ]

Posted by Joe Tommassello (Member # 4632) on 03-19-2009, 05:38 PM:

Tony:

Being a 30+ year 16mm collector I would agree with both Damien and Mark.

As far as LPP it usually says so on the edge of the film though some newer stocks that I started seeing in the late 90s didn't have it. Suffice to say any non-acetate-based Kodak stock is of the low fade vintage. You can test this by holding the reel up to any light source and looking through it sideways. If it has a golden glow as the light comes through it you are all good. Of course these "estar" prints are thinner and scratch easier so treat them gently. Prints on Agfa stock are considered to have a low risk of color fade as well (indicated by an edge code of 1S or 2S...I think I have even seen a couple of 3S codes). Fuji stock would be the next most desireable and says Fujicolor on the edge along with the year of manufacture. I have been known to have a keen enough eye to spot Fuji stock from the screen image due to it's slightly different pallette and grain structure. Kodak stock with an SP marking was an intermediate between the old "rednicolor" stock and LPP and does fade but usually to a warmer almost sepia wash while holding most of the original hues. Actually cartoon colors really seem to pop when that happens!

Title and condition (both physical condition and color) are key in determining value. Used to be eBay was a good way to go but with collector's abandoning film (even 35mm) for Hi-Def video options the value of most items has decreased substantially. Still most valuable seem to be titles that are classics, IB Tech or scope prints. If you wanted to post a list I could kick it around with a couple of other collectors I know and let you know our thoughts. Since I am also gravitating toward blu-ray I have no hidden motive as far as my advice. In fact...

If anyone wants a gorgeous IB Tech 16mm of "Revenge of Frankenstein" with Peter Cushing let me know. We can discuss price and condition off the forum but it is a beautiful gem of a print. The color will make your eyes bleed!

Posted by Tony L. Hernandez (Member # 3524) on 03-24-2009, 09:49 PM:

Thanks for your replies! I consider my question about the LPP answered but I still would like someone to please message me if they could possibly help me determine the print values. I know "THe Shining" and "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" are among the titles...all features are complete.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 06-21-2011, 06:40 PM:

It has been 818 days since the last post.

Posted by Mike Williamson (Member # 6249) on 06-21-2011, 06:40 PM:

Just found this old thread. I collect lowfade 16mm horror stuff, so if anyone has any to sell, drop me a line!

Mike

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-22-2011, 06:55 PM:

quote: Damien Taylor
16mm film prints were churned out en mass for many years for TV etc, and as such many better known titles have lower prices than obscure or unpopular fare.

This is true, AND, because of that fact, they are even less valuable because unless they are of older Academy ratio (1.37.1) pre-1950s features, and ESPECIALLY if they were originally scope features, that "mass" volume of 16mm prints that Damien is talking about were made for TV and for non-theatrical. That means that you have to be VERY careful because THOSE prints were Panned and Scanned and are dispised by film collectors.

Example: a print of say STAR WARS: THE NEW HOPE that would be either an anamorphic format would be worth quite a bit, or a letterboxed format, a little less so, but still quite prized; you would expect them to be worth accordingly, but a TV print of the same title that's a Panned and Scanned version would be worth much, MUCH less, even if it were in mint condition. With 16mm, yes, worth is based on physical condition, but also what is actually recorded on the film as well. You have to also be careful with TV prints is that they could easily be editied for not only aspect ratio, but content and time as well. You know, the old "Reformated to fit on your lousey square screen and edited to fit into our crappy ad-laden time slot." Well, all that nasty manipulation was done ON the film itself in the lab.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-24-2011, 03:01 PM:

Sometimes you get EXTRA scenes in the TV versions -- there were some slight differences with "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and some *major* differences with "Superman: The Movie."

Posted by Mike Williamson (Member # 6249) on 06-26-2011, 07:30 PM:

I have a TV print of Joe Dante's PIRANHA that had almost 15 minutes of additional scenes. They used it for the DVD for their "Deleted Scenes".

I have since spliced those scenes into my theatrical print, creating the ULTIMATE PIRANHA EXPERIENCE!!!