Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Backvac woes

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Posted by Sally Ann Burgess (Member # 4746) on 11-12-2010, 08:10 PM:

Does anyone else have a problem with floor staff going into a minor rage over the backvac cables getting tangled? No matter how many times I say or write memos on how to correctly store them away, I still find myself having to replace cables that are so knotted up as to be almost unusable. I was looking into getting maybe a garden hose reel type of thing so the cords can get wound up properly. Anyone else get the same complaints?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-12-2010, 11:55 PM:

There are those cord reels that can hold 100ft (60m) of cord that does a good job, but the cord really takes the beating having to stretch around the door frames and such..

For Auditorium cleaning ..

The good trick to help get away from all of this is to plug in the cord down at the back of the house, then walk it all the way down to the front so the cord is fully unwound, extended and laying in the aisle.

Then you can start using the blower at the back. Blow the row in front of the user, then reach over with the blower for the next row in front while dragging the cord directly beind the user, then repeat the cycle for the next rows.

(done this too many times when cleaning houses ...)

-Monte

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 11-15-2010, 09:50 AM:

Our cleaners have ruined 2 bac packs and countless extension cords.

I get the ruined cords. I can always use the wire.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-15-2010, 10:27 AM:

I am THE BITCH when it comes to coiling up cords!

AFAIAC, there is but one way to keep cords from being damaged. That is to coil them properly each and every time after they are used.

Working on stage, there are countless cables, cords, ropes and feeders to be uncoiled, used, coiled up again and stored. We have microphone cables, extension cords, speaker cables, ropes, hoses and power cables. If you don't use them properly, they will break and become useless in a very short time.

Done properly, you can literally hold on to one end of a coiled line, toss it out and have it end up lying flat on the floor in a straight line. Done wrong, you'll have macramé.

When you are responsible for teching a show, there are always last-minute requests for microphones and things. If you take care of your cables, it is a simple matter to plug in one end of the line, pay it out as you walk then set the mic stand in place and plug the other end in. You can have your microphone or other equipment in place and working in a matter of seconds if you do it right. Otherwise, you look foolish, especially when a lecture or concert gets held up because you are untangling a cord or troubleshooting a broken connection.

I tell people, all the time, that there is no "secret knowledge" to working on the stage. 90% of the time, the only "secret" you need to know is to stay organized in the first place. When you are faced with that inevitable last-minute situation, you will be able to deal with it quickly and efficiently. If you are not prepared, you will look like an idiot.

There are countless times when I holler at Work Study students or part time stagehands about coiling cords. I have caught people winding cords around their elbows and hollered across the stage at them. They invariably roll their eyes at me and act like it doesn't matter.

The person usually complains that it's "too hard" to coil cables correctly. When they complain, I often will pick up another cable and demonstrate the right way to coil it, throw it out flat then recoil it before they are done finished wrapping their cable the wrong way. I usually do this demonstration with my eyes shut just to show them how easy it can be if you do it right.

It only takes a little bit of practice to learn how to coil a cable the right way. When you learn it and do it right, it can be faster and easier than doing it wrong. At the end of the day, you are finished with your job faster and the work is better. Then, when it comes time for the next job, you are all ready in position to do the task at hand without fooling around.

So, my suggestion is to MAKE people do it right. Holler, scream, stomp your feet at them and make their lives miserable until they learn.

If I catch people wrapping cables instead of coiling them after they have been "lectured" how to do it right, I have been known to make them go into the equipment room and recoil every cable and organize them on the hooks in order of their length.

If they repeatedly do it wrong, I threaten them by showing them the sawdust bin underneath the table saw and tell them that they can either do it right or they can shovel sawdust.

Given a choice, most of your average college student will do anything to avoid that job!

Cord reels might help but they are and expense. If you use them you STILL have to wind cables up correctly to prevent tangling and damage. It my advice to dispense with reels and just KILL anybody who does not take proper care of your equipment.

Posted by Sally Ann Burgess (Member # 4746) on 11-16-2010, 02:36 AM:

Thanks for your input gents, much appreciated! I have started showing people the over and under method of winding up the cords and hopefully that will help cut down on how many replacements I have to get.
Myself, I thought the best way was to wrap the cord around a bin, take the bin away, and get left with a nice circle. But apparently that twists the cords over time.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-16-2010, 03:30 AM:

Randy - I used to run a mobile DJ business I and would have the same fight with people who were trying to "help" by wrapping cables up. I don't know how many times I unwound their disaster-wound cables and re-coiled them my way. They always thought I was too anal. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-16-2010, 12:29 PM:

quote: Sally Ann Burgess
...I have started showing people the over and under method of winding up the cords...

I have an extension cord that's never been wound any other way since the day I bought it.

I brought it home, uncoiled it and laid it out in the driveway for about an hour and let the sun heat it up. I had a helper grab the other end of it and pull it taught so as to pull all the kinks out. Then I coiled it up, over/under, and hung it up on a peg in the garage.

When the cable was coiled while warm it took a set in that shape. Now, when it's time to put it away, that extension cord seems like it coils itself!

Another tip for you... Take a long shoelace, about 24 inches long and tie it on the male end of the cord using a cow hitch or something similar. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_hitch ) That way, when you coil it you can use the lace to tie the cable in a neat bundle before you hang it up. Just wrap the loose ends of the lace around the bunch and tie like a bow knot like a shoelace.

Mike;

Just tell people that those cables are YOUR PROPERTY and you want them wound YOUR WAY. If other people want to go buy THEIR OWN cables they can wrap them any damn way they please.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-23-2010, 01:27 AM:

The Over Under winding method is so simple that it's amazing you see so many people who work in A/V, on stage, or in any kind of production who simply do not to coil cables. And not coiling the properly isn't just an Emily Post nicety, doing it incorrectly is detrimental to the cable itself.

Here is a link Over Under Method. This is a decent demo of the Over Under method -- the ONLY way cable should be wound.

As you can see in the demo, a correctly wound cable can be unwound quickly and without any kinks at all, every time -- you throw it out and it unravels perfectly as one straight piece of wire. And as you can see when he is doing it at his normal speed, not demonstrating, the Over Under method is absolutely just as fast as any WRONG way of coiling a cable -- that wrapping around the forearm being just the worst thing you can do to cable.

As Randy says, if you get a cable that is badly kinked, you may need to stretch it out and force it to untwist opposite the kinks and that may take a few times, or as he did, stretch it out in the sun on the driveway. But once that is done and it is wrapped U/O EVERY time from then on, it will be made whole again.

Winding incorrectly builds kinetic energy forces into the cable that weaken it, especially at the connectors, and will shorten its life.

In this video he his is using video cables because their construction is more susceptible to incorrect winding which goes against the natural internal construction, but the Over Under method should be used on ANY cable, coax or mic or even simple AC extensions. FORCE anyone who you are responsible for to learn how to do O/U and don't let them touch cable until they get it, just like you wouldn't let them touch a splicer until they learned how to properly make splices.

And to finish, I highly recommend the Velcro cable ties. They are fast, always attached to the cable and hold the correctly wound roll together. I know, they are a bit more expensive certainly than tieline, but tieline in the hands of some brute of a bear stage hand can be tied so tightly around the neck of the cable where it normally is attached -- very close to the XLR or other connector, that it can put unnecessary stress there.

Over Under -- good for cable winding, good for Technicolor 35mm 3D! [Razz]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-23-2010, 05:21 AM:

On movie sets, only the "sound guy" uses the over/under method. For new sound peeps, it's usually the first thing they're taught how to do -- definitely in the top three things.

Lighting crew (and everyone else) used a "round n round" approach. Maybe it's because their cables are so thick. Not sure why.

All I know is -- like so many things in Hollywood -- if you don't use the established method of doing things, you're assumed to be ignorant or else a troublemaker -- and you don't get to work.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-23-2010, 12:41 PM:

Ah, yes....the very FIRST thing to learn -- do whatever it takes to make sure you get work. Then you can learn O/U. heh heh.

Posted by Andy Linde (Member # 5664) on 12-04-2010, 03:24 AM:

I too have taught the staff many many times the over under method of coiling the vacuum cables but STILL they prefer to tightly wind it around the vacuum making it nearly impossible to undo in a hurry.

There must be consequenses for their foolish actions [Razz]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-04-2010, 10:56 PM:

"My-next-assistant-won't-DO-that!" Louis

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-05-2010, 12:20 AM:

I don't let folks "help" coil my cables...too many bad experiences. I use both O/U as well as a standard coil. It really depends on the the cable and how it will be used. For instance, I'll use a standard coil on my mic cables for my R2/D2 analyzer. however for the main cable that connects between the booth/plexer...that is always an O/U. The reason I do the individual mics as a standard coil is how I lay them out/coil them up. Often, I'm not coiling the whole length of the cable anyway.

However, when in doubt, I always do O/U...it is the more natural way for me and often goes faster than any other method. The only gotcha is if one end passes through the middle...a string of knots.

-Steve

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-05-2010, 10:22 AM:

I'm sitting here in awe of the video that Frank posted. Yes, it demonstrates the technique, but I'm not really sure why anyone would take advice on video topics from a video that a) breaks every rule of composition known to man, b) is full of unmotivated camera movements, and c) uses jump cuts for no good reason. Whoever shot and edited that needs to find a new job in a different industry.

And, yes, over/under should be used for all audio cables and most video cables. Some TV guys wrap heavy camera cables (Triax, I think) in true figure-8 form, though. I didn't ask why. Maybe because of the weight?