Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Credit requirements for booking prints (and photos of film equipment being junked)

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Posted by Paul Looker (Member # 5420) on 08-19-2011, 12:33 PM:

Hello all. The owner of the theater I manage wants me to buy the business. The price is good and as of now I'm seriously considering it. Something she mentioned to me though was potentially very strict credit requirements put forth by distributors. I know nothing about any of that. The owner herself probably only knows a little bit more than I do. She hasn't been in the theater in over 4 years now. I know this is kind of a vague broad question but any info anyone could give me would be greatly appreciated.

<Edited title due to Steve Guttag's photos on page 2>

[ 08-20-2011, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: Brad Miller ]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-19-2011, 12:38 PM:

Like anything else, it depends on your credit-worthiness. If you and the theatre you are buying have a good reputation, then you'll probably be able to just change the ownership over and continue on as you have been. You'll have to fill out credit apps and sign some guaranty letters, etc. (The process will be easier if you have a booker already...and if you have one but are thinking of changing, this is NOT the time to do it. Wait until you are established.)

If your theatre's payment schedule has been spotty, or it is very low grossing, or you yourself are credit-dicey, then prepare to pay big deposits and/or advances on your bookings.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 08-19-2011, 01:48 PM:

When I set up my theatre there had been no theatre in this town for several years prior to my moving here. (My theatre building was formerly a paint and wallpaper store.)

Most of the distributors required a cash deposit and I was told that after one year I could get the deposits back if I paid everyone on time during that year. When the year was up I wrote a letter to each of them to remind them that the year was up and they all told me to apply the deposits against whatever I owed them at that time.

On the other hand, one guy I used to know was apparently rather casual about paying for his movies and I know that he was required to pay a substantial amount "up front" whenever he wanted to book a movie from certain companies, and I think that continued right up until he was out of the theatre business.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 08-19-2011, 01:51 PM:

Keep in mind you will also have to sign a Master Licensing Agreement (MLA) with every studio in which you promise them your first born and soul. The MLA's are very intimidating, but if you don't try to screw them, they won't come after you.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-19-2011, 02:04 PM:

quote: Paul Looker
Something she mentioned to me though was potentially very strict credit requirements put forth by distributors.

In this, she could also be referring to the fact that you have to pay film rent very quickly, often within 14 days -- otherwise they can hold-up your future shipments, put you on COD, or require the afore-mentioned advances.

And, if terms are not firm, you need to make an "on account" payment at the end of each play week.

Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 08-19-2011, 10:45 PM:

Due to low grosses as well as several other factors our theater is required to mange an advance as well as part a percentage ion account at the end of every week. I

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-19-2011, 11:52 PM:

Is your theater all digital yet? If not, WALK AWAY!!!

Posted by Paul Looker (Member # 5420) on 08-20-2011, 01:35 PM:

Why do you say that Brad? Do you know something that I haven't been able to find out anywhere else?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-20-2011, 03:00 PM:

Because you will go out of business within 2 years if you are stuck running film. Film is about to be discontinued. The owner is setting you up for failure/bankruptcy.

Posted by Paul Looker (Member # 5420) on 08-20-2011, 03:34 PM:

Is that on the record somewhere or just speculation? What percentage of screens in the US are digital right now? What is the cheapest available digital equipment?

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 08-20-2011, 04:15 PM:

US screens are right about the 50% digital threshold. The writing is already on the wall for the end of film when you look at things like the consolidation of Deluxe and Technicolor, the end of 35mm distribution in some foreign markets, and other factors. Plus, my understanding is some of the studios have said they will start to cut their 35mm print orders once the 50% digital threshold has been reached.

Unless the theatre is a high grossing location, it will become increasingly difficult to get prints on the break. And depending on how many theatres in the area have already converted, it may be difficult to get 35mm a few weeks off the break as there are few prints to circuit.

Furthermore, you're too late to be able to get into any of the VPF agreements for converting to digital. You would have to self finance and you would not recoup anything.

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 08-20-2011, 05:35 PM:

Our company operates a 35mm multiplex in the Pittsburgh market and keeps consistent with the 100% digitized competitors. Telling Paul he should walk away just because he is film-based was another example of digital projection coloring everybody's mindset rather prematurely.

On the other hand, digitization is coming. I am rather convinced that it will not roll-out as quickly as some are suggesting. Steve Guttag, for example, recently wrote on the forum that the one thing exhibition does not need is 50% of the screens being digitized along with 50% still running 35mm. With another down-turn in the economy, small markets (like the 'Burgh), might be forced to keep film around. Unlike most of the country, many theaters in the Pittsburgh/Western Pennsylvania market are still 35mm. I doubt that we are not alone in that. Quite frankly, the only place I see major digital role-outs are in markets that saw SUBSTANTIAL population growth during the 1990's. Its the other way around out here in the "sticks".

It does seem, however, that your owner is getting out because she cannot afford the transition . . . and that would be enough for a "no go" for me.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 08-20-2011, 06:09 PM:

Aaron: The issue is not what has been the case to date, but what will happen in the future. My theatre is going to be converting to 100% digital in the next couple weeks (presently we have 2 of 5 screens digital). Up to this point we have not had any issue getting 35mm prints, as long as the release falls within our "platform".

The problem is that we have been getting pushed further and further out. A few years ago we were getting prints at a 2000-2200 theatre release. Now we aren't included until 2500 for some studios. I don't know all the politics of book film, but I can't help but think this is related to digital in one way or another.

You also have to realize that 35mm prints will become more expensive as the demand decreases. As the cost of 35mm prints rises, it is less likely the studios will provide prints to low grossing theatres on the break.

The unfortunate reality is some small/independent theatres will be forced out of business because they are not able to foot the bill for converting to digital.

Posted by Paul Looker (Member # 5420) on 08-20-2011, 06:18 PM:

It's not so much that she can't afford it as it is she never wanted this place to begin with and therefore never bothered to even consider any kind of upgrades to anything. She was more than happy to pocket money that could have gone towards investing in our future. I still have faith in this place. And I want it. Way down in my gut even if it's going to go down in flames before this year is out, I want it. Does anyone have a rough idea of the lowest end price for converting a screen these days? We are small. 2k projectors would do the trick for us.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-20-2011, 06:21 PM:

quote: Paul Looker
Does anyone have a rough idea of the lowest end price for converting a screen these days? We are small. 2k projectors would do the trick for us

With the right dealer and bargains, roughly $55K plus for a 2K, 2D unit...along with revisions needed in the booth for the conversions.

...just plan for the future and digital is where it's at for I've been helping "indies" some on the future of digital since they know 35mm is on it's way out as the medium for cinema presentations.

(should post that pict of the "graveyard" of STRONG equipment destined for the shredder that Steve posted in FB to enlighten the truth on how film is rapidly diminishing out of the cinemas)

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-20-2011, 06:28 PM:

quote: Paul Looker
Does anyone have a rough idea of the lowest end price for converting a screen these days? We are small. 2k projectors would do the trick for us.

You'll have to provide more info about the existing setup for anyone to give you an estimate. Things like screen sizes/throws, existing sound equipment, etc will help.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-20-2011, 06:38 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
With the right dealer and bargains, roughly $55K plus for a 2K, 2D unit...along with revisions needed in the booth for the conversions.

Monte, we have NO IDEA what his situation is like. How big is his screen? What is the throw? What kind of sound processor does he have currently?

Without knowing things like that, you are only potentially setting him up with bad info.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-20-2011, 06:42 PM:

Okey, please retract my statement then on what I said. We go by on what this buildings contain before one can safely say a rough price then ... (sorry on that...)

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 08-20-2011, 07:23 PM:

The economic downturn Justin mentions above seem to be a very real possibility.

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 08-20-2011, 07:35 PM:

quote: Paul Looker
It's not so much that she can't afford it as it is she never wanted this place to begin with and therefore never bothered to even consider any kind of upgrades to anything.

After reading that I say "HELL NO" to getting involved. Even in Pittsburgh, which seems to be weathering the recession better than other markets of similar size, I still think its a bad idea.

Justin:
I agree with all your points, but I still think the studios are going to have to keep film in the mix beyond 2012. The rural marketplace is too substantial of a hit to take - especially in the Midwest/Rustbelt. If the independent owners fall by the wayside as you are guessing then people may have to travel over 50 miles just to see a movie. Those kind of distances are unheard of here in the east.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-20-2011, 07:42 PM:

..and this weekend's releases didn't help any ...

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-20-2011, 09:25 PM:

It's called denial.

Everyone seems to keep forgetting amidst their passion for film that the studios want day-and-date for PPV. They don't care about the small guys! "Acceptable losses."

Just sayin'

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-20-2011, 10:07 PM:

quote: Aaron Mehocic
If the independent owners fall by the wayside as you are guessing then people may have to travel over 50 miles just to see a movie. Those kind of distances are unheard of here in the east.

I know that I've sometimes overused this phrase, but everything you've written in the above is an absolute non sequitur. The distributors make decisions based on lots of things other than what distances are heard/unheard of in the east or midwest. They may factor it in a little bit (just to make it seem like they give a shit) but in the end the rest of their "equation" is much more important to them.

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 08-20-2011, 11:06 PM:

As I have said before ignore the % of screens that have been converted. INSTEAD.......look at what % of gross for an average movie is from digital locations. That number right now is north of 70% and will be at 90% next year.

EVERY significant chain of theaters (and I am really going pretty liberal on "significant") has already announced plans to go digital withing the year. Name for me one 5 location or more chain that has not????

The studios do not make much money on the bottom 10% of theaters. I am surprised sometimes how wide they do go.

Paul, you need to take a deep breath and step back for a few weeks. Read every post on this forum and on the other forum dealing with big screen business. I agree 100% with Brad. You are making a big mistake if you have not factored in digital and how to pay for it within 2 years.

The fact that you act surprised to hear Brad say that shows me you are not informed enough at this point.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-20-2011, 11:33 PM:

I maintain that stating what the studios will or will not do in 2013 (and beyond) is, at best speculation. NONE of them have put it in WRITING what they will do. It is obvious what they would LIKE to do. It also seems that the industry will be about 60% converted by the time the current VPF programs run out (for getting started). I don't know if Christie's deal, which does not include all of the studios...just the majors (at this point)...also has an October 2012 drop-dead date.

40% of a market is 40%...though, as some have pointed out, that 40% only represents 15-20% of the revenue.

The realities also are...that the amount of film needed to be made will be less than half of what it used to be...economies of scale will be reduced and thus make film a more expensive medium to deal with.

There are MANY factors in play here and the commercial/financial realities of the future will dictate how the future plays out. I think that anyone that they KNOW what is going to happen is taking their "beliefs" as "fact."

But for those of you that have not seen the mass disposal of film equipment...here ya go.

(finally platters being treated with the "respect" they deserve!

Note, they don't even save the lenses or intermittents anymore. They are just left out in the rain until they are hauled away.

Take you pick...Christie, Simplex Century...all being literally JUNKED.

This represents about 1-months worth of systems to be disposed (ALL of the pictures above) and it only represents ONE theatre chain's worth of throw aways. That is what the value of this stuff is becoming to some. It may be hard for those that have dreamed or at least desired to have that ISCO or Schneider lens or perhaps to replace their tired projector with something more reliable...but none the less, it is being thrown away as garbage with ZERO value anymore.

So there is REASON why some are proclaiming film is dead or is dying quickly. If you've been around the conversion at all, you have seen this, even if it is on a small scale.

Many booths still have their film equipment even after the digital conversion...do you want say some Kinoton PK60Ds? Or platters that have not been thrown in the dumpster?

Here ya go...make an offer. Brad is sitting on some too (with modern Christie consoles).

But who is going to invest in their film projection by making it better with film's future so uncertain?

It may be sad but it is reality.

I'm fortunate in that I get to work around venues that will likely be running film indefinitely (places like the AFI, National Archives, Library of Congress...etc) but for most of America, film seems like it is going to be shrinking into a niche. Mind you, I hope it does stick around...I like the medium. I also don't think exhibitors can really afford digital...if they could, they would not need the VPF deals...and few have had to feel the pain of repairing one of their digital projectors when a part that cost upwards of $20K fails. The machines are mostly reliable...but like all man-made things, they do fail and they will not always be under warranty. I do think that exhibition is jumping into a swimming pool without checking the depth, water quantity or even sides to ensure they can get out or keep themselves afloat.

-Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-20-2011, 11:41 PM:

Steve, you accidentally left out the word "Strong" in your platter caption. [Razz]

The risk is just too great for Paul to take over that building without digital. Even if film made it until 2014, anyone still running film will be doomed, and I'm telling everyone, film WON'T last that long.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-20-2011, 11:47 PM:

There are plenty of Christie platters in that trailer too! Eff em all.

I'm not as pessimistic about film's survival. It will all be about the numbers, in my opinion.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-20-2011, 11:51 PM:

I wonder when the market for used digital equipment will start to emerge? That'll probably be the best deal for a lot of small venues.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-20-2011, 11:55 PM:

..all heading to the shredder and made into FORDS, or frying pans after all of the metal is sorted out..

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-20-2011, 11:58 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I'm not as pessimistic about film's survival. It will all be about the numbers, in my opinion.

quote: Mike Frese
As I have said before ignore the % of screens that have been converted. INSTEAD.......look at what % of gross for an average movie is from digital locations. That number right now is north of 70% and will be at 90% next year.

Yup Steve, you are absolutely right, and what Mike wrote is the reality. The studios care about the MONEY numbers.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-21-2011, 12:07 AM:

Mike...I'm not optimistic about a secondary market for used Digital...except if a theatre chain goes bust.

These cost so much, folks are going to run them until they are no longer reliable. In particular, the series 2 machines. The series 1 machines I see popping up occasionally are the ones that an exhibitor would need to spend thousands on to get them DCI compliant enough for the studios. They also often have a reason they are no longer wanted (not reliable).

As to the numbers, I'm not as convinced as some have proclaimed. I think the industry is going to have a situation come 2013 and hopefully, they will be able to resolve it.

-Steve

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-21-2011, 02:07 AM:

What's interesting, in adding in the comment about "numbers", is that I've seen these some of these changes occur with 35mm pullouts for digital, and now with library servers occupying the booth where one individual does all the digital work - from core injests of both trailer and feature files, to playlist assembly to final house assignment, which is all done by one computer console.

Now, the hearing of actual outside advertising companies that will have full control of these operations where after the pre-show, a signal will be sent to the unit to begin playback...and throughout the entire week's performance times. It's just another way to trim down playroll so the cinemas can stay with within their required "numbers".

This seems the ideal method of what is coming upon us now so the "numbers" can be there.

But, is this all gonna work without any problems .. we just don't know for sure..

..who knows, maybe those units destined for shredding have to be reused....

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-21-2011, 02:07 AM:

Admittedly, I'm not in the loops that many of you are. As an independent drive-in operator in a medium-sized market, my threshold has always been when the big chains started seriously converting their installed equipment base. Why get excited about jumping "on the train" when Regal & AMC weren't doing so... or worse... still installing film gear. It wasn't more than a couple of years ago that Strong announced a big contract with Regal for Century gear, IIRC.

In a little over a year, our market has gone from one converted screen to more than 10, or about 25% of the installed base. That should be about 40% to 50% by the end of the year, if what I'm seeing plays out.

I've also had three cases where a sub-run 2nd-feature booking was delayed due to 35mm prints not being available. The delay wasn't more than a week, but that never happened before this year.

So... the line I drew in the sand years ago has been crossed. I don't know if running film will become a critical problem in 2, 3 or 5 years, but it doesn't really matter. We're lining our ducks up to be ready when the time does come.

As for the discussion surrounding this indoor house, it's too bad that emotions are driving the train. Whether you make digital a factor in your plan or not, I agree with those who think you're making a fatal mistake not to take this issue seriously.

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 08-21-2011, 10:39 PM:

Jack,

Not including my 4 screens we are 26/38 converted to digital in my area. The remaining 12 are supposed to be converted by EOY which will leave me as the only 1st run still running film. My 10% of the screens equals only 2% of gross.

Steve,

Thanks for those photos. As someone who would not mind an upgrade here and there on my film equipment, I could not help to gasp.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-22-2011, 01:56 PM:

Yeah, if that stuff has zero value, as Steve says above, it should be free for the hauling at some point!

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-22-2011, 02:58 PM:

It looks as if the Boston area (~15 mile radius) is about 65% D-cinema and 35% 35mm film. (Not one theatre in this market could run a 70mm print if it arrived today, although at least two have the potential to do so with some notice, and one is actively working on achieving the capability.) This is by screen, not location, and counts only commercial theatres and not non-profits, special venues, and Imax houses not part of an existing commercial theatre.

Don't quote this, as it's based on some personal knowledge and some educated guesses. I am counting the format that is likely to be shown most often, even if a given theatre may be capable of showing both film and D-cinema.

The split seems to be mostly along chain/independent lines. Independents and art-houses (including Landmark, as far as I know) are almost all 35mm. AMC and National Amusements are largely D-cinema. Not sure about Regal, but they have several Real-D screens at their Fenway cinema. AMC has pulled out all 35mm capability from at least one theatre, which has already bitten at least one film film festival. Most of this change has happened in the last year. There were very few [dlp]

screens in this market in 2009.

Steve is right--this will get interesting in a few years, and I am sure that a 50/50 film/digital split is the distributors' worst nightmare, especially with many theatres capable of showing only one format or the other.

As for the "worthless" equipment: the platters can stay in the dumpster, but I'll offer $1 each plus shipping for Isco or Schneider lenses. I am not a theatre owner and do not compete with any of the people throwing this stuff out, so they should have no reason not to sell to me....

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 10-01-2011, 06:06 PM:

I hope that that never happends to our Victoria 5's. Sure they have their problems but I much rather have them warm in our projection booths, maybe no longer operational but still ready to work, they don't deserve to be standing outside without anyone to care for.

Posted by Paul Looker (Member # 5420) on 10-01-2011, 09:04 PM:

I can't imagine that we would not need new sound equipment. Our processors are ultra stereo jb series and they are getting the job done with qsc amps (2 1700's and 2 1200's one for each auditorium). We have electro voice tl606dw speakers behind the screen with hp9040 horns on a dh1a driver. I don't want to do 3D because the vast majority of my customers come here because we don't. As far as screen size, all 4 are different but I want to start with an auditorium with a screen size of roughly 16 x 26 running flat and 12 x 26 running scope. Throw is about 60 feet.

Posted by Jeremy Jorgenson (Member # 2989) on 10-28-2011, 10:00 PM:

Wow. I just came across this thread. Those pictures on page two are pretty crazy.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-29-2011, 01:08 PM:

I'm waiting for someone to post a video on YouTube of these units and items being shoved in the shredders for later metal extractions.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 10-30-2011, 10:39 AM:

The latest numbers I have seen suggest that 60% of all screens in America are now digital. The six screen I manage will be by end of year, or so I am being told. I did get an email welcoming my theater to Real D 3D so I am assuming that we are converting soon.

I personally think that film will no longer be available or will cost you extra to get, by mid 2013 but with the deadline for VFP being Sept. 2012 film could be done end of next year!

And if you buy something that isn't already in the buying group (or you aren't in already) then you will not be able to get VFP's, or maybe you can but I don't think so.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-30-2011, 08:42 PM:

You don't have to be in the buying group to get VPFs. (not VFPs) You just need to find an integrator that will handle your conversion.

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 10-30-2011, 10:26 PM:

quote: Ron Funderburg
I personally think that film will no longer be available or will cost you extra to get, by mid 2013 but with the deadline for VFP being Sept. 2012 film could be done end of next year!

And if you buy something that isn't already in the buying group (or you aren't in already) then you will not be able to get VFP's, or maybe you can but I don't think so.

Something to think about: If you are in a competitive market (meaning it is easy for customers to go to a different theater) and in that 2800+ rank range: there have been stories of digital theaters not getting a movie b/c of the VPF vs a digital theater of similar gross getting that same movie. Two studio reps of top 5 studios have agreed that the VPF will hurt you on occasion in getting a movie.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 10-31-2011, 10:24 AM:

Of course, the VFP will just as you have to pay a guarantee to get some films now or can't get them. Your grosses have always been a factor in you getting or not getting a film what is the difference in a VFP or the cost of the print to the film company? Nothing has changed on that!

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 11-01-2011, 07:58 PM:

quote:
Of course, the VFP will just as you have to pay a guarantee to get some films now or can't get them. Your grosses have always been a factor in you getting or not getting a film what is the difference in a VFP or the cost of the print to the film company? Nothing has changed on that!

Ron, not true. The guarantee with at least one studio (the top one) has decreased from $1500 to $1000 for a digital theater not receiving a VPF from when they were film. Another studio has been more generous in movie allocation since the switch before.

The guarantee has actually done up in some circumstances for a move-over movie for digital.

I have had talks with sales reps of 3 of the major studios and they believe that there could be better availability of movies on the break for theaters who are not receiving a VPF vs when they were film.

Posted by Steven J Hart (Member # 2340) on 11-01-2011, 08:37 PM:

quote: Paul Looker
Does anyone have a rough idea of the lowest end price for converting a screen these days? We are small. 2k projectors would do the trick for us.

We just installed a NEC 2000 series 2 system in our single screen theater. Total cost was about $75,000 installed: including GDC server, UPS, Electrical upgrades, Two new JBL stage speakers each with an amp (we were center surround before), Ultra Stereo JSD100 & USL Booth Monitor, Denon DBP-1610 Blu-Ray and Denon DN-A7100 pre-amp, plus various odds and ends to integrate the automation. Our throw is very long with a smallish screen, so it took NEC's longest (read most expensive) lens to fit the image to the screen.

DON"T forget hiring a qualified technician to install the stuff for you. There is special test equipment required for aligning the color & brightness. I saw the difference before and after the alignment and unless you are some kind of a god you are not gonna be able to get it right just by eye.

BTW, we are completely self financed, and have seen no differences in terms from the majors. Except for Paramount, they still want 3 week deals with most anything played on the break (does not work with a single screen)

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-02-2011, 10:29 PM:

quote: Ron Funderburg
Your grosses have always been a factor in you getting or not getting a film

That's not always true anymore, either. There are quite a few releases these days where the studio will take anybody who wants to play the movie for the required time (usually 2 weeks). All that matters to them is screen count, and they get more and more willing to work with you when the competition is super-tight.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 11-22-2011, 02:40 PM:

That will benefit you on an on the break film. Not sure if it does off break. If you can get it on the second week (not after) then that will help as well.

In the 60's and 70's you could make decent money playing years old film. They weren't on TV yet, they were popular, and you were the only sources. Roll around the 80's and a year or so down the line you have VCR rentals the late second run market started to dry up. Now it is all but gone, though you can get people in on classic series that are discounted.