This is topic Running classics -expensive! in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 12-14-2011, 09:56 AM:
 
I made an attempt to book the Sound of Music, either as a sing-along event or just a regular screening. I had no idea it would be financially impossible for a small screen. The minimum guarantees asked for are ridiculous (1500-2500€)! And the sing-along isn't even a DCP but DVD!!

How about the rest of Europe, or the US for that matter, I know some of you run classics but are you really paying this much? Do you actually fill the seats necessary to make any money at all?
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-14-2011, 10:23 AM:
 
Ouch!

I don't know about SOM, but, in the US, something like that is generally in the $250-400 range, either flat rate or vs. 35% or something like that.

Licensing costs are generally the same regardless if the exhibition medium is a DVD, 35mm print, or something else. I don't know about DCPs, however, but they are not really a factor (yet) for most theatres showing classic films.

Where theatres really get whacked is in shipping costs. Most of these prints (the good ones, at least) are warehoused on the west coast now, which means that round-trip shipping could easily be $150-200 (or more!). This is signifcantly more than shipping a more recent title to/from the TES depot (which is generally under $60 round trip per print, unless something has changed recently. Also, current/recent films can often be picked up/dropped off from other theatres without having to pay shipping at all (again, unless something has changed recently...anyway, this was possible in the recent past).
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-14-2011, 11:08 AM:
 
If they send out prints on certain features sometimes you have to put a deposit on it for the cost of the print. Young Frankenstein is that way. But you get the money back as long as the print isn't damaged. Still you can just book it and go with the option of DVD or BluRay and avoid the deposit
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-14-2011, 11:11 AM:
 
I don't understand why they don't just do a percentage deal. I would run a classic movie every couple months if we could make any money on them, but at $250 to $400, there's no way even if we used blu-rays and skipped the shipping. Maybe the studios could come up with variable pricing based on the individual theater's weekly gross average. Given the limited market for a lot of classics, I would say 1/10 of the weekly gross vs 35% would be a good deal for a small market.
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-14-2011, 11:24 AM:
 
Most places that run Family Summer Series do pretty well making money off the concessions not the tickets. A lot of them make it a free movie. I haven't seen bookings above $200 for children's show.

I know that isn't exactly a classic series; however, have played a lot of classic children and family fare that way. When I had my own theater we always packed them in on those shows. I think we charged $2.00 a head and did about $4.50 a per head at concessions on them.

Never tried to book a Disney so not sure what they charge. I think you still have that 7 year issue and I don't think they let theaters run them period unless they are in release at the time.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-14-2011, 03:33 PM:
 
That 7-year thing is long gone. They don't book their older movies, period. Their (dopey) thinking is, the old movies will compete and take money away from the new ones.

I haven't seen a matinee priced at less than $250 in about 2 years. When I got into the biz $25 or $50 was the norm. A guy could make some coin back then!
 

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Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 12-14-2011, 03:46 PM:
 
Hi Elise.

It seems that what you are being charged is bordering on the ridiculous.
Now, if it were a 70mm mag print of SOM, then I MAY be able to justify the guarantee asked, but even then there would be little if any hope of recouping anywhere near what is being asked.

At current conversion rates, your 1500-2500€ equals our $A1956.50 - 3274.9 or in that weird funny money they have in the U.S , $US1946.80 - 3244.70.

Either way, you are being charged well over replacement print costs, in which case perhaps you could consider doing what some theatres here in Australia do and that is to BUY the print and keep it onsite.

Is it any wonder theatres who try and do the right thing get shafted while the studios bitch about piracy when you can buy the damn film for peanuts?

Best of luck with your venture Elise. Keep us informed on what eventually you decide.

Cheers
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-14-2011, 04:38 PM:
 
Yep, there must be something wrong with these numbers. Maybe you can find a fellow cinemaowner to inquire a second time. At least in germany we get classics always cheaper than current titles, be it flat or without minimum guarantee. Very few special titles on 35mm sometimes cost a bit more because they come from special sources, but nowwhere near your figures. Have you booked classics before? Under which conditions?

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 12-14-2011, 04:58 PM:
 
Distributors aren't interested in your making any money on their product.
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-14-2011, 05:06 PM:
 
Edward you are right they are interested in them making money on their product!
 

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Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 12-14-2011, 05:08 PM:
 
We do our "Retro Weekends" in the fall to compete against the county fairs. What we see as far as terms go are almost exactly what Scott stated. Either a flat minimum of a percentage of the box whichever is greater. Can't state actual numbers here, because last time I did I got reamed by my booker - who got reamed by a studio rep. Never seen numbers like what Elise quoted.

Shipping is what always is the killer on booking older stuff. Can't wait to go digital... just for the ability to play the older titles off of Blue Ray (with proper licensing of course).
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-14-2011, 05:11 PM:
 
Alternative content options for Digital are attractive for sure. Not just bluray there is pay for view options as well. That is if you can talk the owners in to such things. Well if I can talk the owners in to such things. :-)
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 12-14-2011, 10:07 PM:
 
Those prices are about right for Disney sing along prints. They only have a couple prints of those titles and they are well aware how popular they are. We have a non profit that rents the theatre
every year for one of those sing alongs, print rental is typically
around USD 1500.
 

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Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 12-15-2011, 02:41 AM:
 
Carsten, where do you get your classics?? I'd love a percentage deal since the cinema is small and we have no way to predict the turnout.

Film print costs I do understand, and even hoarding the popular DCP copies but come on, 2500€ for a DVD? I do have the Blu-Ray copy (a sing-along one, actually) at home anyway, bought it for 6,49€ and it included both BR and DVD... the source for the 2500€ deal was singalonga productions, and the lower one (1200€ plus DCP, KDM and shipping which amounts to about 1500€) was Hollywood Classics. But if they own the European rights, nothing I can do, right?

I'd love almost any classic onscreen, so again Carsten, in Germany, where would you get one at a reasonable price? An associate of mine tried to get a title from HC a while ago for a festival and the deal was not the same, but the same level of ridiculousness for sure. It's like they don't want to do business at all! I'd say small business is better than none.

Without a percentage deal I can't run alternative stuff. Thankfully we founf a line of Broadway musicals (Memphis, Smokey Joe's cafe, Jekyll and Hyde, Putting it together) to screen at a percentage, that's sweet. And of course there's The Royal Opera House of London that we're screening, actually going live for Sleeping Beauty tonight! *thumbs up*

The satellite stuff works now, and I'd like to thank you guys for your input about it earlier. (now that I said that it'll definitely go bust tonight...)
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-15-2011, 03:48 AM:
 
$250 to $600 is the norm for straight classics. But the sing-alongs are a different story. SOM was just that -- $1500 against 45%. We said screw you and just handed out printed lyrics. When we did PURPLE RAIN, we used Powerpoint on the Barcos and projected lyrics on top of the film. Worked very nicely, but we needed an operator. As long as you are only running a few shows, it works very nicely. Since SOM does have a "sing-along" version, I don't know how Fox would take to what we did, but I can't see how it violates any copyright restrictions. Next one I want to try is MY FAIR LADY.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-15-2011, 08:04 AM:
 
Wow. $1500 for anything is completely outrageous. I cannot think of anything that could possibly be worth that, even if the print is brand-new and looks amazing. Most classic film screenings are barely worth doing even at the usual rates, and it is much worse now that nearly everything ships from the west coast (a decade ago, more prints were available in local depots).

Do these sing-a-long screenings really do big business? Are the ticket prices in the normal (~$10 per) range, or higher than normal? The idea seems kind of corny to me, but maybe it works. I have never been to one (I can't sing).

If I were going to do an expensive classics program, I would think that silent comedies with live accompaniment would be a better bet than sing-a-long shows....
 

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Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 12-15-2011, 08:39 AM:
 
You might try the "Corporate Sponsor" route. We've done it before for a "Classic Christmas" weekend at the drive-in about 7 years ago. Worked out pretty well. We got one of the local banks and a nation-wide corporate restaurant chain (based out of our home town)to sponsor the event. They paid the film rental and the shipping, and it was billed in our advertising as "Holiday Christmas Classics" a gift to the community from "----- Bank" and "------- ----- ".

We let everyone in for free, we took the concessions (which wasn't much), and the sponsors got all of the credit.

It's an option....
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-15-2011, 08:48 AM:
 
Well, the singalong versions might explain the extra cost.
The singalong versions, be it 35mm or DCP, need special prints/CineCanvas subtitles or rendered versions, so the upfront cost is very high for a rather limited spread. However I'm really wondering how anyone could create any profit from singalong presentations under these conditions. Do they expect 2000 patrons to gather for such an event?

I have never seen or heard of any singalong prints in germany, so I have no idea wether that is normal.

Elise, if you want to do these singalongs more often at reasonable cost, you may need to think about another ways to do it, like having ordinary prints/BluRays and do your own subtitling or handout paper lyrics. In fact, there may be some copyright issues involved with these approaches, too, but I guess you will find ways to get this working. For presentation rights, first try to dig-up the distributor of the normal 35mm/DCP, then simply ask them for a BluRay/DVD option. Not always do the same companies have rights for 35mm and DVD/BluRay, but at least you should give it a try. We do get away with a flat-rate of 100-200 Euros for a classic from time to time. Some will still want a percentage or minimum guarantee, but usually in the same range as with current mainstream features.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 12-15-2011, 12:03 PM:
 
I'm not after the sing-alongs especially, just seemed like a fun thing to try. At this point I want to get any classic people would pay money to see but I only know of Hollywood Classics to book from. Who do you use for classic bookings, Carsten? I'm fixating on you because of your European status.

Classics will go without subtitles, that's for sure. Nobody would even consider making them for one cinema... actually with our opera recordings, we do that ourselves now. I'm in the middle of translating Royal Opera House's Cendrillon for the January screenings in Finland, and with full permission and blessing from the rights holders.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-15-2011, 12:30 PM:
 
It's not a straight procedure here as well. There is a rental catalog where you research first, it will usually show you the current right holder, sometimes more than one. Sometimes one of these offers you 35mm or DVD or BluRay. Sometimes they say we have a print, but it is very bad. Sometimes the information in the catalog is outdated and you're at a dead end. Then there is a german forum just like film-tech where you can ask around who played that feature recently and where to get it.

For a lot of classics, there seem to be a few individual parties like film houses, university film-clubs etc. with their own rights to rent out and present their prints.

I recently inquired at a german 'film institute' for 'It’s a Wonderful Life' - and they told me 'We have the rights to grant, but we have no copy'. Ooops...

But all that is still strictly national, so I doubt it is too useful for you.

We also recently discussed the MPLC as an option - they seem to have an office in Finland as well, but their licensing model might not be suitable for a normal cinema - you may still get in contact with them.

http://www.mplc-gmbh.de/index/worldwide

(Yes, seems these links are dead, but you may send them an email and inquire for your local office)

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Jonathan Jensen (Member # 5870) on 12-15-2011, 12:38 PM:
 
Hi Elise,

We had as recently as last week a mini Classic Cavalcade with 13 titles total. Ranging from 'West Side Story', 'It's a Wonderful Life' and 'Casablanca' to 'The Big Lebowski', 'Scarface' and 'The Good, The Bad, The Ugly'.

All titles was on DCP and we got them from Hollywood Classics, Arts Alliance Media and United International Pictures. All London headquaters.

I don't know the pricemodel, but I'll ask around.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-15-2011, 12:44 PM:
 
Elise, I can't help you with sources in your neck of the woods but over here it is either book directly thru the studio's classics department if they have one or in the case of Fox, some secondary company they contract with to handle their old titles. Fox never saw fit to bother with any of their older titles -- I mean like 6 months to a year to them is OLD and the don't want to have anything to do with them, except litigate if they think someone is showing them and not paying their pound of flesh. Or, depending on your situation, book through the non-theatrical sublicensees. I have the luxury to straddle the fence on theatrical/non-theatrical and I can go whichever way gets us prints and/or the best deal. Non-theatrical is almost always more expensive, but at least they will talk to you about older titless.

As for the sing-alongs, personally I think they are pretty much a bastardization and if I weren't such a whore, I would refuse to maul a film in that fashion; a good film shouldn't be messed with, but that's personal, people really do seem to like them.

And Scott, yes the reason they charge $1500 is because they can given the popularity in any venue that has a high enough seat cap, they can really pull in the butts. Plus, usually if a venue that plays classics usually charges around the $6-7 ticket range, they can pump up the price for the sing-along version, touting it as a "special event." You know, "surcharge" for special event! So if they charge 8-9 bucks and pull in say 1000 sales, at 1500 against 45%, they are still ahead of the game. You just have to have the seating capacity, which, believe me, usually is a handicap, except in situations like this one.

Now, doing what we did -- doing a $250 rental, and then bringing in 4000 people, well the math makes my eyes water...hehe. There was the hiring a PowerPoint operator who knew the songs well enough to keep pace (oh wait -- she was a VOLUNTEER; yah, that's the other thing, people LOVE to volunteer for these sing-alongs). You can do well, but it's promotion, promotion, promotion.

But I say, if you are going to go that route, anyone can get themselves a video projector (usually they have an e-cinema unit already) and with a bit of extra work and marketing, turn any mu$ical into a $$$ing-along.
 

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 12-15-2011, 01:10 PM:
 
Back in June of 2003 the Gershwin Theatre in NYC, booked the Sing-A-Long version of "The Wizard of Oz" for 14 performances. The theatre is one of the largest of the Broadway houses with 1935 seats. The tickets ranged from $15 in the upper balcony to $40 on the main floor of the theatre. The theatre ran about 90% full on all performances.
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 12-15-2011, 02:11 PM:
 
You and your little doggy too!

Sorry just couldn't resist the urge!
 

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Posted by Jonathan Jensen (Member # 5870) on 12-15-2011, 02:20 PM:
 
Hi Elise.

Park Circus is another option for rental.
They have SOM in their catalogue (normal version):
http://www.parkcircus.com/catalogue/show.php?id=105193

In regards to the pricemodel:
I just got word that HC was 50% and Park Circus 40%.
At least that was our deal.

I hope this helps... Good luck
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 12-15-2011, 03:41 PM:
 
The rights to the SING A LONG SOM are held by a different company than fox. We had a group rent the theatre to show it earlier this year and it was in the $1500 range whether they ran 35mm or DVD. Part of the extra expense is probably the publishing rights on the songs, but mostly it is just that this company has the exclusive rights. A portion of the rental does go to Fox. I believe they have minimum tix prices and minimum advertising requirements, too. They give you a little help with audience participation ideas, but that's about it. God, SOM is a tedious movie. You can save everyone lots of time and trouble by just ending it at the intermission. I think there's only one new song after that anyway.

I don't know if things like the Grease singalong or Hairspray singalong are as expensive. I seem to remember the rental on Hairspray (or maybe Momma Mia) singalong as $700 v $250 for the regular version. And it was from the original distributor.
 

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Posted by Melanie Loggins (Member # 6454) on 12-15-2011, 05:12 PM:
 
I ran the Grease sing-along this spring, and it was treated like a normal movie: advance ($250?) and 35%. But then, I was able to get a digital print of it, so it was a lot easier.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-15-2011, 05:42 PM:
 

quote: Bill Gabel

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Back in June of 2003 the Gershwin Theatre in NYC, booked the Sing-A-Long version of "The Wizard of Oz" for 14 performances. The theatre is one of the largest of the Broadway houses with 1935 seats.

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Brooklyn Center's Gershwin Theatre was so named from its inception in 1953 -- from the time the first cornerstone was laid and long before the Uris Theatre in Manhattan was even a thought in some developer's mind, we were presenting music, dance, film and live theatre on the George Gershwin Theatre stage. And long after our inaugural concert by Leontyne Price, did the management at the Uris Theater decide to usurp the Gershwin name for its own, renaming itself the "The Gershwin Theater."

Over the years this has caused unnecessary confusion even to this day and quite frankly, it is a move that is considered untoward in the theatre business. Nevertheless, we wish them nothing but good will, confident that "Wicked" will play there for another dozen years (how boring must it be to work on that staff?)

We are happy in the knowledge that although they may call themselves by our name (while disrespecting Mr. Gershwin by dropping his first name), we will always be the first George Gershwin Theatre in New York City, Borough of Brooklyn, County of Kings -- and we think we're always the more exciting and diverse a venue, predating those Manhattan upstarts by decades.

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Posted by Ky Boyd (Member # 23) on 12-16-2011, 12:10 AM:
 
Sing Along Sound of Music is an exception rather than the rule. Most sing alongs are done just like regular classic films and handled at $250 or $350 vs. 35%. Sing Along Sound of Music is weird because Fox doesn't control it. The Rodgers and Hammerstein Organization got involved and all Sing Along Sound of Musics worldwide are licensed out of a U.K. company that feels it has the right to charge for fortune for the presentation. Is is right? Doesn't matter. It is the way it is.
 

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Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 12-16-2011, 12:57 AM:
 
Looking into Park Circus, thank you. Also, didn't know that AAM had classics as well? Says nothing on their website. I know XDC did at some point but not sure about the current situation, that road is still untraveled.

On the Park Circus material on the site it says that they can deliver a copy but you have to find and obtain the licensing rights by yourself? Isn't that the whole point, getting the rights?? Any fool can walk into a store and buy a Casablanca DVD, the material itself isn't hard to get. It's the rights that elude us.

Seems silly. Movies people want to see, cinemas wanting to show them. Simple, right?
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-16-2011, 01:49 AM:
 
Yep, sometime I get the same impression here. All getting nuts about copyright and anti-piracy protection, but making a mess out of the presentation rights aquisition for classics.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Jock Blakley (Member # 6552) on 12-16-2011, 09:11 PM:
 
AAM do the D-Cinema mastering for Park Circus, rather than hold their own classic library (or so I gather anyway).
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-17-2011, 12:37 PM:
 
The Grease sing-a-long is the worst one I've ever seen. They put extra "audience singing" in the surrounds! They also destroyed the sound mix and pulled a "Lion King 3D" with it. The mix was so bad we had to run it at about 4 on the fader (their normal setting is 7 for 99% of all movies).

The other thing that was ridiculous was they were so busy flying, spinning and changing the crazy fonts of the lyrics, that by the time they stopped moving to where you could read them, if you didn't already KNOW the lyrics you would be behind and couldn't "sing-a-long".

For those of you who missed it in the random video links thread, let's not forget this spectacular idea. I can't wait for the sing-a-long.
 

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Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 12-17-2011, 01:11 PM:
 
I... I don't know what to say to that. Man.

Although my husband and his friend were laughing their asses off. Just had to show them... Recognized every scene, too. And I recognized the song. What does that say?
 

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Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 12-19-2011, 08:29 AM:
 
Filmbank licence theatrical and non- theatrical showings of consumer formats in the UK, but I don't know if they cover the rest of Europe. They have SOM listed as well.

The Independent Cinema Office offers advice on film programming, but this seems to be limited to the UK.

quote: Elise Brandt

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On the Park Circus material on the site it says that they can deliver a copy but you have to find and obtain the licensing rights by yourself? Isn't that the whole point, getting the rights??

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quote: Elise Brandt

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Also, didn't know that AAM had classics as well?

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