Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Movie theatre fined for locked emergency doors

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Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 08-23-2013, 11:55 AM:

Movie theatre fined for locked emergency doors

quote:
Saskatoon's fire marshal slapped Galaxy Cinema with a $250 fine for not having its emergency doors connected to the fire system, preventing people from exiting the theatre after a bear spray attack.

Dozens of people who were watching the comedy We're The Millers were trapped in the dark room Tuesday night after bear repellant was released in the theatre.

People tried to push on the bars of the fire exit doors, but they remained locked. About 150 people were forced out in total, but no one was seriously injured.

"There is lots of documented cases in North America where occupants of a building have been trapped and prevented from egressing from the building because of this kind of an incident," said Wayne Rodgers, Saskatoon's fire marshal.

Rodgers has issued the theatre a $250 ticket and has ordered the theatre to re-evaluate and update their fire emergency plan so all their staff know what to do in case something like this happens again.

"We have also instructed them, in the meantime, to either disconnect the maglocks that are on those doors," said Wayne Rodgers, Saskatoon's fire marshal. "Or at all times when that theatre is occupied that there will be security personnel at those doors, in the event of an emergency, so that they can activate the fire alarm system," he said.

Seven people were treated at the scene by fire crews, who used decontamination gear.

Police said video surveillance from inside the theatre links a woman and two men to the bear spray attack. They are asking anyone with information about the suspect to contact them.

Locked fire exit doors sounds life-threatening to me. I'm surprised the fine was only $250.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-23-2013, 01:49 PM:

Absolutely. There was a major fire a couple of years ago in I think some sort of nightclub where people were trapped by exit doors. In 1971 the Summerland fire on the Isle of Man killed about 50. There have been several cases of pyrotechnics used on stage have set fire to plastic materials used in buildings. Getting large numbers of people out of large burning buildings quickly is a serious business.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-23-2013, 02:19 PM:

Yes, 250US$ for a business regularly dealing with so many possible victims is a joke.

That would have been okay if they simply had found the doors locked WITHOUT any real incident showing the mistake.

- Carsten

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 08-23-2013, 02:40 PM:

I thought the panic bar is supposed to deactivate the mag-lock. In no way should operating the panic bar prevent egress. $250 is less than a slap on the wrist.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-23-2013, 04:33 PM:

quote: Stephen Furley
There was a major fire a couple of years ago in I think some sort of nightclub where people were trapped by exit doors. In 1971 the Summerland fire on the Isle of Man killed about 50.

The combination of fires and blocked emergency exits have been responsible for the biggest death and injury tolls that have ever taken place in movie theatres and many other types of enclosed space with lots of people gathered at high density.

Sometimes the emergency exits are even blocked intentionally. In the Glen Cinema Fire in 1929, the exits were chained up to prevent people from sneaking in to see a movie without paying. Cocoanut Grove fire, 1942 - 409 dead - victims trapped by turnstile. Rex Cinema Fire, 1978 - exact number of dead unknown, but at least 470 - doors locked and fire started (though admittedly this one is unusual, as it was done deliberately as an act of mass-murder).

For these reasons and others, agreed with all of the above - failing to ensure properly working emergency exits while customers are in the building should always be treated as a very serious violation by the authorities.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 08-23-2013, 05:41 PM:

I just finished reading a book last month about the Chicago Theater Fire
(also known as the Iroquois Theater Fire) of 1903 in which over 600 people died.

Many were trapped by locked or confusing exits. A number of our present theater
building safety codes, such as requiring doors to open outward and be equipped
with 'crash bars' came out of this disaster.

Although I don't think the exact cause of the fire was 100% established, there
seems to be pretty good circumstantial evidence that it was started by a short
circuit in a lighting unit on the stage.

If you search online, you can find the official investigative reports by the fire
marshal & coronor's jury which were published a year or so after the event.

The reports make very interesting, if somewhat gruesome, reading.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-23-2013, 06:27 PM:

The theater should be shut down until the emergency exits are fixed.

Period.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 08-23-2013, 08:01 PM:

quote: Stephen Furley
There was a major fire a couple of years ago in I think some sort of nightclub where people were trapped by exit doors.

You're probably thinking of The Station nightclub fire where Great White was performing. 100 people died and 200+ were injured.
The Station Night Club Fire

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 08-23-2013, 08:49 PM:

This is a Cineplex Cinema under the Galaxy brand.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-23-2013, 11:59 PM:

$250 is insulting to the customers. The only way to get the importance of public safety to businesses is at least a $10,000 fine with no warning. I agree with Randy too they should've done a forced evacuation and closed the whole building until everything was 100% up to spec.

This WILL happen again with such a pathetic fine.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-24-2013, 12:56 AM:

While I can see why they could do a forced evac, I think it would have better for the sheriff to show up the next morning before business opens, chain and padlock the front doors and stick one of those big orange signs on the front window.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-24-2013, 03:34 AM:

quote: Justin Hamaker
You're probably thinking of The Station nightclub fire where Great White was performing. 100 people died and 200+ were injured.
The Station Night Club Fire

No, I found it. It was this one in Brazil:

web page

The cause was a combination of plastic insulation foam in the ceiling and pyrotechnics used on stage, a combination which had caused other serious fires around the world previously. Even without the pyrotechnics the use of this foam should never have been allowed in this situation.

The Summerland fire involved Oroglas, an acrylic sheeting, and a material which consisted if steel sheet coated with asbestos and bitumen. Lessons about the use of flammable materials in large public buildings are not being learned, at least in some parts of the world.

Another one which I remember seeing on the news was in a gay club in Soho, London, close to a fire station, but the fire brigade were delayed reaching it by the narrow streets being blocked by vehicles. If I remember correctly, this one also involved inappropriate materials in the structure of the building, and an excessive number of people inside.

Two large buildings in London each suffered two large fires. In North London the Alexandra Palace opened in 1873, and totally destroyed by fire just a couple of weeks later. It was rebuilt, but in 1980, still open but rather run down, and in need of major refurbishment it was again struck by fire, with just about everything except the outer walls lost. A long-disused theatre and the old television studios did survive. It was again rebuilt within the existing walls.

It's counterpart in South London, the Crystal Palace, was originally built in 1851 for the Great Exhibition in Hyde Park. After the exhibition closed it was dismantled, and re-erected in an enlarged form on a hill at Sydenham, opening in 1854. By the 1860s the North wing had blown down in a storm, and the North end of the main building, including the North transept, had been destroyed in a fire. Neither was re-built; a television transmission tower stands roughly on the site today.

In 1936 the whole of the main building was destroyed by fire, except for two towers which were demolished soon afterwards. The concrete bases of these towers, and a few other traces, remain to this day. Fortunately, the building was not open at the time, and there were only a few people inside. The building was constructed of cast iron and glass, but contained a great deal of wood, mainly in the floors.

My mother managed to set fire to the kitchen twice. The first time the smoke from just a small area of polystyrene foam tiles was incredible; I couldn't see even a foot in front of my face, and I don't think it would have taken much of it to kill. Incredibly, she insisted on putting back similar tiles, with the same effect in the second fire.

Fire is something to be taken seriously, and I agree with Randy that the building should have been closed until the exits were in proper order.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-24-2013, 09:58 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
The only way to get the importance of public safety to businesses is at least a $10,000 fine with no warning.

While I agree $250 was too low, 10 grand would put a lot of places out of business, or maybe cause them to have to raise their prices to recover.

Making them be closed until they've jumped through all the hoops could have similar effects.

This could have just been a simple oversight. If it was the second or third offense, then fine, otherwise maybe $1000 would make sense.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-24-2013, 12:19 PM:

quote: Stephen Furley
In 1936 the whole of the main building was destroyed by fire, except for two towers which were demolished soon afterwards. The concrete bases of these towers, and a few other traces, remain to this day. Fortunately, the building was not open at the time, and there were only a few people inside. The building was constructed of cast iron and glass, but contained a great deal of wood, mainly in the floors.

Geeky fact alert: that fire was also the subject of the first live outside broadcast in Britain. The preamp output from an OB truck (which at the time was only capable of recording onto disc cutting lathes on location, not actual broadcasting) was patched into a phone line on a spur-of-the-moment "Let's see if this'll work" decision, and the rest was history.

Posted by Alan Plester (Member # 852) on 08-24-2013, 12:45 PM:

I remember, years ago, watching a dire experience in a cinema in Coventry, which has now closed, when, during the interval, one of the usherettes removed the chains from the exit doors, we had been on the premises over 90 mins, I left, and voiced concern to the manager, never went to that flea pit again, lousy ,lousy show, and felt rather uneasy in the circumstances

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-24-2013, 01:03 PM:

Mike, the reason I'm for such a steep fine is because I see businesses all the time with blatant death traps in the event of a fire. A few have aggravated me to the point where I have brought it to the attention of the manager and a couple to the corporate office. Months later, nothing has changed. With rare exceptions (a business like yours where people truly care), NOTHING works in this day and age except a painful loss of cash.

To twist it into a more personal angle, what if your wife or child was trapped in a business and couldn't escape during a fire and burned to death? $1000? There is no "I'm sorry, we will do better" after the fact. I've always felt fire systems should be treated with extreme care.

To pick on theaters for a moment, a show of hands...how many people (without naming names or locations) know of at least one theater with no functioning fire shutdown on their projectors? By law the movie must stop and the sound system must be muted with lights turned on (these 3 items without human intervention). I've got news for you...from what I've seen most of the "slam it in and run to the next theater" installs during the big VPF race skipped the whole fire alarm tie in.

How many people know of theaters without "crash bars" on all exit doors, and instead have a deadbolt (even IF the inside has a latch that doesn't require a key)?

Seriously, it's a huge problem. Its one of the reasons I designed a bit of overkill into our automation system. When the fire sensor is triggered, the FT system don't just pause the movie and mute the sound, it brings up ALL lights including janitor lights (this is because some theaters have very dark auditorium lighting or have bulbs out), it posts a short note on the screen that a fire has been reported in the building to please exit, it closes the doors to prevent the fire from spreading (they are still easily pushed open by people just like normal, they just aren't held open), and it also shuts down the HVAC system (in case the fire alarm was not tied into the HVAC system or that trigger fails, again to prevent the spread of the fire).

In locations where we are also running their lobby energy management and house system, similar things happen with turning off tvs, video games and so forth...but the system mutes the lobby music except for the lobby microphone, in the event a manager needs to be able to talk to a loud crowd.

All of the above is in addition to the normal fire alarm system (emergency lights, strobes, loud announcements telling people to exit the building, etc).

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-24-2013, 06:18 PM:

Agreed with every word. I've actually been in a large public building when it caught fire - Woolworths in Wimbledon in 1981 (scroll to bottom of linked page), aged eight and with my mother. The place went from being totally normal to filled with dense smoke, almost in an instant. The fire wrote off the entire building (what was left had to be demolished and the store rebuilt from scratch), and a fireman was killed in the blaze. We lived about 200 yards from the place, and even at home after we left, we could feel the heat from the front yard and my eyes stung from the smoke.

Probably as a result of that experience, I've always been a lot more fire-conscious than many people I knew. At the last theatre I worked, I insisted that the alarm system be tested at the start of every day along with the emergency exits, including the interlocks with the projection automation systems in all the auditoria. We'd set it off using a different break-glass panel, smoke detector or rate-of-rise heat detector each day, so that all were tested on about a 50-day cycle. A lot of people thought this was overkill, and I suspect that most of those who did had never been in or close to a large building that was actually on fire.

Posted by Anslem Rayburn (Member # 1267) on 08-24-2013, 10:43 PM:

Our system shuts down all projectors, turns on janitor lights and all emergency lights (which all run on battery backup in the event of a power failure) , and plays a prerecorded message over emergency beacons in every auditorium, the lobby, restrooms, and employee only areas stating an emergency has been reported in the building, asking everyone to calmly exit the building via the nearest exit doors. And we have 9 doors in the lobby all equipped with push bars, as well as exits directly outside in all auditoriums, again with push bars.

We have had fire pull stations pulled as a prank a few times. Even with all of that, most people just sit in there seat until we force them to exit, which we always do if the alarm goes off, even if we're 99% sure it was a prank.

I've actually been called all sorts of names in the past for making someone exit while the alarm was going off. But when a fire station is pulled, our local fire department is automatically deployed and won't clear the building for occupancy until they've gone through every room to ensure it wasn't a real emergency.

I agree with them, there's no point in risking lives over a movie.

Posted by Andrew Thomas (Member # 7000) on 08-24-2013, 10:57 PM:

The family business I grew up in was a locksmith/access control business. Stuff breaks. A lot of time it breaks without you knowing. Or little jerks tamper with things. Unless it had been an inordinately long time since the system was last tested by the operator and inspected by a professional, it is pretty ridiculous to advocate for something like a $10,000 fine.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-25-2013, 01:36 AM:

Andrew, I think you may be missing my point above, so I'll twist it around to better make that point.

So a business with front doors that do NOT have crash bars, but instead have deadbolts on the doors doesn't warrant a $10,000 fine?

To quote Will Smith..."awwww hell no."

If the crash bars break and fail to lock the doors, that's fine. But for someone to go running toward a door to get away from a fire (or crazy guy firing a gun everywhere or whatever the emergency is) only to find that the door doesn't open when they push on it??? Sure maybe that door has a little lever that can be flipped, but we're talking about the general public in a panic. It is absolutely unreasonable for ANY business where the public congregates to not have crash bars because the reality of the scenario is that they won't be using their brains. Those people will just be running trying to escape, and the business owner has a responsibility NOT to trap people in such a scenario.

This is similar to the shooting in the Colorado theater last year. Most stadium seating auditoriums (the ones without rear exits) by their mere design are death traps not only to a crazy gunman, but even a fire in the right scenario could trap people on the risers to burn to death. Rear exits should be mandatory regardless of whether they want to stadium the seating or not. To better define it, one exit per corner.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-25-2013, 02:11 AM:

Most of the deadly fires have involved a combination of inappropriate materials used in the construction of buildings and inadequate or unusable means of escape. These are problems which have been recognised for well over a hundred years, but in cases such as the Brazilian nightclub, which I think was a fairly recent building, lessons seem not to have been learned.

I know of a case where an emergency exit from a theatre was found to be impossible to open after a show, but had been tested earlier in the day. some noises had been heard outside during the show, and it turned out that a builder's skip had been delivered, and placed against the exit doors!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-25-2013, 03:16 AM:

Yup, I see management at theaters putting their junk in the emergency exit hallways all the time too. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-25-2013, 07:01 AM:

I am on the same page as Brad. Unluckily, Kentucky was the scene of the Beverly Hills Supper Club fire back in the 1970s. 164 died; over 200 injured. Take an old house, sell dinner now add a room; add another roon until you get 30-40 rooms. All wood, aluminum wiring, exits not marked and only 2 or 3 of them confusing egress pattern.

I attended an event there back in the 1960s; left early. It took 15 minutes to find my way out. This is with no one else trying to leave.

Because of this, cinema and restaurant construction in Kentucky changed forever. This is a good thing. Both are now made of nearly fireproof materials and with enough exits to prevent entrapment. It was a pain in the _ss at the time, but no one here has safety issues anymore. Louis

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-25-2013, 09:05 AM:

I am completely with Brad on this. A $250 fine is not big enough to serve as either punishment or a deterrent, and this was an incident in which people actually tried to leave and were blocked from doing so.

Agreed, too, about the importance of having exits at both the front and back of the auditorium (and, for large theatres, in the middle as well). Patrons who sit in the rear of the theatre should not have to walk forward to exit. The Colorado shooting incident provides a good example of why this is a bad thing.

As far as I know, automated fire shutdown of projection equipment is not actually a code requirement in Massachusetts, except in some cities and towns. I implemented it in a manual (35mm) booth about a year ago, using the fire alarm relay to trip relays to close both film projector changeovers and a video projector douser. It was semi-nontrivial to do this, but probably not a bad idea, even though that booth will always have a full-time operator. I don't know if the house lights are part of this system, as that was someone else's purview.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-25-2013, 11:24 AM:

quote: Anslem Rayburn
Even with all of that, most people just sit in there seat until we force them to exit, which we always do if the alarm goes off...

Good point, and it relates to Brad's about crowd psychology. If a large group of people believe that there is a real threat, they'll panic and stampede. If they believe that there isn't, they'll refuse to move. In the opening weeks of the last theatre I worked full-time at, the sensitivity of each smoke detector and rate-of-rise heat detector needed a lot of tweaking to find the level at which normal events (e.g. residual building dust in the atmosphere) wouldn't trigger them, but evidence of an actual fire would. During this time there were numerous false alarms: two or three a week at the height of the problem, and enough to cause complaints from customers. Eventually, the fire alarm would go off and the collective reaction from both customers and staff would be along the lines of "Yeah, right, here we go again". In a staff meeting I explained the problem as a sort of electronic buy who cries wolf: the risk is that when there really is a fire, people will ignore it.

I've noticed the saame thing when fire alarms have gone off in other places - university lecture theatres, restaurants, and in one case an airport terminal (that was fun, with us all having to go back through the security check after the all clear). Real building fires are now, thankfully, so unusual that when people hear a fire alarm, they simply don't believe that it's telling them about an actual fire.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 08-25-2013, 11:49 AM:

It is necessary for the local licensing body (or fire service) to make regular inspections of buildings (especially cinemas and other entertainment venues) to check that they are being operated correctly. This would involve checking a random sample of fire exit routes.

The fines or sanctions should rapidly increase if action is not taken. If a routine check reveals a fault, such as a locked door, a relatively small fine should be issued. Checking of that venue should then be stepped up significantly (more frequent and more thorough). Further faults should result in significant penalties including, if necessary, an enforced closure of the site until the necessary repairs/management change takes place.

The UK's Health and Safety Executive has extensive guidance documents available to download for a number of different building uses.

One key operational recommendation is that, on a daily basis:

quote:
Remove bolts, padlocks and security devices from fire exits, ensure that doors on escape routes swing freely and close fully, and check escape routes to ensure they are clear from obstructions and combustible materials (including seating) and in a good state of repair. Check the fire alarm panel to ensure the system is active and fully operational. Visually check that emergency lighting units are in good repair and apparently working. Check that all safety signs and notices are legible

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 08-25-2013, 12:53 PM:

"Remove bolts, padlocks and security devices from fire exits"? Really? It's illegal to have a lock, bolt or padlock on a fire exit door here. Even if nobody is in the building.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 08-25-2013, 02:57 PM:

In another section of the guidance it states:

quote:
In some larger premises, when only certain staff are on the premises and there is a security issue, it may be acceptable to restrict the number of emergency exits immediately available, e.g when only security staff are present at night, or prior to opening the premises to the public in the morning. Staff should be made fully aware of any restrictions and the number of exits not immediately available should be limited.

Many buildings use the front entrance as a fire exit when the building is open, at night this will often be locked or secured with a roller shutter.

In staff only areas it may be permitted to have a more complex door opening system ranging from standard door handles to electromagnetic door locks or bolts.

quote:
When the fire sensor is triggered, the FT system don't just pause the movie and mute the sound, it brings up ALL lights including janitor lights (this is because some theaters have very dark auditorium lighting or have bulbs out), it posts a short note on the screen that a fire has been reported in the building to please exit,

Does it do this immediately any alarm point or sensor is activated, in all screens simultaneously?

Depending on the building design it may be better to operate a phased system, giving staff the opportunity to get into position and verify that there is a problem. The building can then be evacuated in stages (starting with the screens nearest the problem) until everybody is out.

There is a risk to evacuating, especially in sites where there are many stairs on the escape route (one local cinema has evacuation routes with 6 floors of stairs to climb down). There is a substantial risk of tripping and falling with potential crushing by following customers.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-25-2013, 03:23 PM:

The system can do immediate (default, as that is the requirement in the US) or it can stagger in an automated fashion. I would be very hesitant to use the staggered option though because it is impossible to determine the location of where a fire will initiate.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 08-25-2013, 03:38 PM:

The staggered evacuation would prioritise the areas near the location of the (suspected) fire based on information from call points and sensors. There would not be a standard plan for this.

I think delayed systems are designed to give a short (<3 minutes) time before forcing an evacuation. If multiple sensors or call points are triggered it will immediately evacuate.

-----

It is strange how much the codes vary between country. In another thread I was surprised to find that weekly fire alarm testing was not required in the USA, as was testing the safety curtain daily in live theatres.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-25-2013, 03:41 PM:

quote: Mark Hajducki
The staggered evacuation would prioritise the areas near the location of the (suspected) fire based on information from call points and sensors. There would not be a standard plan for this.

Yes each screen can be individually triggered for this.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-25-2013, 03:56 PM:

quote: Mark Hajducki
It is strange how much the codes vary between country. In another thread I was surprised to find that weekly fire alarm testing was not required in the USA, as was testing the safety curtain daily in live theatres.

In general, testing a fire alarm in the US requires the cooperation of the local fire department. I don't know how it works in the UK, but a US fire alarm system in a commercial building does more than just trigger bells or horns--it typically signals the fire department, either through an alarm company or by triggering a Gamewell master box that is connected to the city or town fire alarm telegraph system. Testing this sort of system typically requires that a fireman and/or alarm company service man be present.

There is no way that a local fire department could deal with a test alarm from every commercial building in the town once per day. It would completely overwhelm them and would increase the response time for real alarms.

Thus, fire alarms in commercial buildings are typically tested semi-annually. There are plenty of internal self-tests in a modern alarm system and a "trouble" indication will be given (typically on a lighted panel) if something goes wrong in the meantime.

Fire extinguishers are typically inspected and tagged every year.

The staggered evacuation thing is becoming popular in the US for some reason. At my last job, I worked in an office building that had this sort of system. The alarm would sound on all floors, and a barely-audible synthesized voice would call for an evacuation on the floor where the alarm was triggered and the floors immediately above and below that floor. On other floors, it would tell people to stay in place and await further instructions. I realize that the purpose of this was to avoid congestion in the stairways, but the whole thing always made me nervous, and I am not sure that I would want to stay put in a burning building even if the synthesized voice told me to do that.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-25-2013, 09:06 PM:

quote: Farnk Cox
"Remove bolts, padlocks and security devices from fire exits"? Really? It's illegal to have a lock, bolt or padlock on a fire exit door here. Even if nobody is in the building.

As Mark points out, the norm in England and Wales (Scots law differs in many ways from that in England, Wales and NI) is that it's OK to have fire exits secured, as long as no customers are in the auditoria and staff have adequate emergency exit provision (and are trained in its use). In the theatres I worked, chaining up the emergency exits was pretty much the last thing that was done by the last person to leave the building at the end of the night, and the first thing that was done by the manager or projectionist who arrived to open up.

The English law with regard to cinema regulation is a bit weird, to put it mildly. It has its origins in the Cinematograph Act 1909, which was essentially a kneejerk response to some nitrate fires and other nasty accidents caused by the hasty (and often jerrybuilt) conversion of stores, shops and other buildings into movie theatres. It set out certain safety requirements in broad terms, but put the responsibility for enforcing them onto town and city councils. The basic system that act put in place is still the one that operates today: in order to have the legal right to charge members of the public money to watch movies on your business premises, you need a licence from your local authority. That is granted after they come and inspect you, and one of the things that happens as part of that inspection is that the fire officer (a professional firefighter but who is acting on behalf of the council) visits the place and satisfies him/herself that your fire prevention (and first-line firefighting) infrastructure is up to scratch, and that staff are properly trained. If (s)he isn't satisfied, the council won't give you a licence (or will pull an existing one).

But some fire officers are more punctilious than others. I've been present at inspections where the place has been gone over with a fine tooth comb, right down to demands to inspect maintenance records for the extinguishers and alarm system, to a ten-minute walkaround, one or two questions, yeah, you're OK and I'm outta here.

Scott - some alarm systems here do make an automated phone call to the fire brigade if they are not reset after a set time has elapsed (e.g. 90 seconds), but on the systems I've worked with this function can be disabled for testing purposes.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-26-2013, 02:27 AM:

At the college where I work the fire alarm system is tested at 7 a.m. every Thursday. The fire brigade do not come out, as they do when the alarm is normally activated, but whether that's because the system for calling them is de-activated, or because they're told that it's a test I don't know. The latter would be better since it tests the calling system.

I haven't noticed it recently, but it used to be the case in some types of buildings that all chains and padlocks had to be hung on a board in clear view when the building was open, so that it could be seen if any were missing, and therefore a door possibly still locked.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-26-2013, 07:47 AM:

Delayed system has a fault in that many people will NOT operate a fire pull until they think they are safe. That means the alarm point will be away from the fire. "Smart" systems have the possibility of sending some people toward harm.

Posted by Andrew Thomas (Member # 7000) on 08-27-2013, 07:00 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Andrew, I think you may be missing my point above, so I'll twist it around to better make that point.

So a business with front doors that do NOT have crash bars, but instead have deadbolts on the doors doesn't warrant a $10,000 fine?

To quote Will Smith..."awwww hell no."

But that isn't what happened here and isn't what you were calling for a $10,000 fine for. The doors had magnetic locks on them that were triggered by a relay for the panic bar. Apparently there was some problem and the panic bar didn't cause the maglock to release.

Unless there is evidence of actual negligence (like a lack of testing( or willful intent to keep the door locked no matter what, to suggest a $10,000.00 fine is ridiculous. The article gives no indication of negligence or intent on the part of theater management and so the $250 fine and negative publicity is probably an appropriate motivator to have the system fixed. I wouldn't have any issue with requiring the system to be tested and any errors to be corrected before those auditoriums could be put back into use.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-28-2013, 02:24 AM:

A system such as this should fail safe. If it works as you describe then a single sticking relay could cause a wrong side failure. I'd suggest two relays, with both n/o and n/c contacts sensed on both. If any of the four contacts changes from its expected state then the doors should be released. I'd also want to see this tested frequently, several times each day.

"The maglock system failed" really is nothing like a good enough excuse for people being trapped in a theatre building.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 08-28-2013, 07:11 AM:

You'd be amazed at the number of DLP installations that aren't even connected to fire alarm for automated shutdown here, because the people who 'installed' the equipment don't understand things like relays, or didn't have the necessary bits to interface the 24v fire alarm with GPI on the server, or simply didn't have time. Even better are the places where unless the system is running content from the server, nothing happens on fire alarm. This is why my automation interface has a dedicated fire alarm input which is totally independent of the server. So if alternative content is running, you still have some form of shutdown on fire alarm activation. [Roll Eyes]

Once upon a time, not so long ago, it was not uncommon in smaller cinemas, say 1-3 screens, to have a system of hooks to hang the fire door chains on. Either in a very prominent place, such as beside the projectors so the staff would see straight away they were still on the doors, or as I have installed at some places, on hooks with electrical interlock. Chains not on hooks = projectors will not run.

I've never actually seen any kind of electrical fire door locking system which unlocks the doors on fire, what we see here are magnetic devices which are holding doors open, that release on fire, thereby slowing the spread of fire through the building.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-28-2013, 07:37 AM:

Thanks Pete. Digital equipment is being re-commissioned as we speak, or at least it is due to be. I'll check that this has been done, and ask for it to be tested before re-opening. It wasn't connected when the system was originally installed, but this was done after a while.

Here at the college we have a number of doors leading to fire escape routes which are held closed by maglocks which are supposed to release when the fire alarm is activated. At least one didn't when the system was first used after the building works were completed. I don't like it, and I wouldn't install it if it was up to me.

We also have a few of the doors in long corridors which are held open but automatically closed for smoke control.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-28-2013, 11:46 AM:

quote: Stephen Furley
Here at the college we have a number of doors leading to fire escape routes which are held closed by maglocks which are supposed to release when the fire alarm is activated. At least one didn't when the system was first used after the building works were completed. I don't like it, and I wouldn't install it if it was up to me.

That's because (I was told) if you leave a maglock energised without releasing it for too long, it retains its magnetic properties after the power is switched off. There are maglock fire doors in our building at the university which release and close if the alarm is activated, which we're under instructions from Estates Service to release and close manually over each weekend to prevent this from happening. If you just leave them on 24/7 for weeks and weeks, they will no longer lose their magnetic 'stickiness' when the power is cut.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 08-28-2013, 11:57 AM:

I have seen a fire exit door in a large store with a sign stating that when you push the bar an alarm will sound and the door will open fifteen seconds later.

This seems unnecessarily complex and failure-prone to me, when you're dealing with a potentially life-threatening event. If there is a fire, explosion, release of poisonous gas or whatever, I want to get out now, not fifteen seconds from now.

Some years back a chap I knew at the time was running a fixed highway weigh scale (checking for overweight trucks) when the shelf in the bathroom fell off of the wall, a bunch of stuff got smashed on the floor. A container of bleach got mixed with a jug of toilet cleaner and the room filled up with poisonous gas. He had to crawl out of the building on his hands and knees and just barely made it out alive. Afterward, the badge on his cap was visibly corroded, and all of the electronics were eaten out of the scale; even the doorknobs were corroded.

There was no fancy fire exit system there and that's good. A fifteen second wait in those circumstances would have killed him.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-28-2013, 03:21 PM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
That's because (I was told) if you leave a maglock energised without releasing it for too long, it retains its magnetic properties after the power is switched off. There are maglock fire doors in our building at the university which release and close if the alarm is activated, which we're under instructions from Estates Service to release and close manually over each weekend to prevent this from happening. If you just leave them on 24/7 for weeks and weeks, they will no longer lose their magnetic 'stickiness' when the power is cut.

I'm somewhat skeptical that you'd ever get strong enough residual magnetism to prevent a door from being opened with a good shove, but I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise. However, that was not what happened in this case, the door released as soon as the maglock was turned off with a key. Of course, most people would not have had the switch key, it's a special one, not the standard 'fish' one; looks like a filing cabinet key. Also, even if you have the key you wouldn't want to grope around in a smoke-filled corridor lit only with emergency lighting to find the switch to put it in. There's another door next to the one in question which should not release on the fire alarm, it's not part of an escape route and leads into our server room where you wouldn't want people to go, and from which there's no other means of escape. I suspect that the lock had either been wired up wrongly in error, or more likely these days, mis-programmed. These things seem to be software controlled these days.

These locks don't even release if power is lost; there's a lead-acid battery in each controller box which keeps them energised for some time, I think it's at least an hour, without mains power.

These things are installed by security companies who seem to be more concerned with keeping people out of places than with letting them get out in an emergency. I have no objection to the small maglocks which hold a door open and release to allow it to close for smoke control, but I don't like the large ones which hold a door closed, and are supposed to release it to open in an emergency.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 08-28-2013, 04:24 PM:

Do the maglock doors have emergency release points (green coloured fire alarm call points) that open the door and alert security?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-28-2013, 04:54 PM:

quote: Stephen Furley
I'm somewhat skeptical that you'd ever get strong enough residual magnetism to prevent a door from being opened with a good shove...

Sorry - probably didn't explain myself very well. The fire doors I was talking about (mainly ones in corridors) are held open on the maglock: if the fire alarm is activated, the power supply to the maglock is cut, and the door is then supposed to be released and swing shut. The thinking is (same principle as with vacuum brakes, I'm guessing) a power supply is needed to maintain the system in a potentially unsafe state. No power = the system reverts to a safe state. If the fire alarm goes off when no-one is around to give the doors a good shove should they stick (e.g. in the middle of the night), then residual magnetism in the door maglock could be a problem, I guess. Whenever I've pressed the trip buttons on the top of the maglocks (which momentarily cut the power supply), they've always released the doors instantly, and so I'm hoping that Estates Services are just being paranoid by telling us to release them over the weekends.

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 09-08-2013, 06:25 AM:

quote: Stephen Furley
If it works as you describe then a single sticking relay could cause a wrong side failure. I'd suggest two relays, with both n/o and n/c contacts sensed on both. If any of the four contacts changes from its expected state then the doors should be released.

Using relays safely is a well understood artform, and is widely practiced around industrial machinery. One has to use the right components assembled in the corrct manner, and there are a fair number of standards and regulations in the field.

It is force guided relays that makes reliable (or at least failure detectable) relay systems possible.

Have a gander at Safety Related Control Systems

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-29-2013, 10:04 AM:

In our building, the lobby entry has a revolving door and two normal swinging doors on either side. After hours, the revolving door is locked. One exits via one of the swinging doors which has a simple push to release latch. To enter, the other door has an electrically released lock which can be opened via an RFID card or a tenant can release it via their telephone after being called from an intercom box next to the door.

Anyway, that electrically unlocked door is held CLOSED by an electromagnet. There is no mechanical latch. When unlocked, the power is simply turned off for 30 seconds or so and the door may be pulled open. It confuses some because there is no buzz or sound. Presumably, with enough force I suppose it could be forced open but it seems beyond normal ability. Maybe the door frame would bend first as the magnetic grip is incredibly strong. If there is any sticking from residual magnetism I have not noticed it. During business hours, the security guard will release it for, say, the UPS guy coming in with a cart.

PS: I've been told that the revolving door was originally some sort of automatic thing where it sensed if someone was there and revolved by itself but after too many bumped heads it was disconnected and converted to normal.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 09-29-2013, 10:49 AM:

quote: Steve Kraus
door is held CLOSED by an electromagnet. There is no mechanical latch. When unlocked, the power is simply turned off for 30 seconds or so and the door may be pulled open. It confuses some because there is no buzz or sound.

These type of lock may not be suitable for escape route use in public buildings as they can be confusing to users. I suppose that this could be corrected by making the button look like a standard emergency exit pushbar.

In a situation where the majority of users will be familiar with the technology there is less of a problem.

These locks usually have an emergency override (which looks like a green fire alarm call point) which will unlock the door in the emergency exit direction, alerting security. I have seen some situations where the emergency override is on the opposite side from the push to open button.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-29-2013, 11:46 AM:

quote: Steve Kraus
Presumably, with enough force I suppose it could be forced open but it seems beyond normal ability.

I'd also guess that if the door was forced open with the magnet energised, that would trigger an alarm and have security people there very quickly.