Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Heating problem with a Cretors Diplomat 32

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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 02-20-2015, 09:53 PM:

Started last week where the kettle would not get hot enough to pop. If left on long enough, the popcorn would eventually pop, but it was not worth serving.

Replaced the elements, but same issue with the new elements. For what it's worth, the old elements had to be changed because leads had arced to the terminals and could not be removed, and at least one terminal was spinning freely in the element.

When I tested the heat with the pyrometer, the thermostat would kill the heat at the proper temperature, but it took about 20 minutes to reach that temperature.

Tested power coming into the 220 outlet. My multimeter is difficult to read, so I've included a picture so you can see what I mean.

Reading the power at the outlet, I get 50vDC on A-B and B-C, and 100vDC on A-C. I get the same reading on both of my poppers.

I've check for loose or fried wires and could not find anything.

Lastly, I took the cover off the kettle and tested the power at the terminals with the heat switch on. The power reading was exactly the same as from the outlet - see picture.

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 02-20-2015, 10:11 PM:

I see that you have the meter on the 500 volt scale instead of the 250 volt. If you are reading the scale with the tick marks that goes to 250 then you need to go by the numbers next level down. 50=100 and 100=200. Sounds about right if that is the case. Check that the new elements are for the correct voltage. They make 110v. 208v and 230v elements that all look alike. Voltage should be stamped in the flat ring elements.

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 02-20-2015, 10:13 PM:

It looks like you have lost a fuse or circuit breaker on one leg of the 220 volts, get an electrician in there. Most poppers work on 1phase 208/240 with a neutral to supply 120 volts for the motors and lighting. I would start at the breakers! Are any of your other 220 volt devices acting up? if so it may be a power company line problem, start with an electrician.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 02-20-2015, 10:36 PM:

John, that's part of what has me confused. My other popper is working fine, and I get the same readings from the outlet. Both poppers are on the same circuit panel.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 02-20-2015, 11:00 PM:

Can you plug the non-working machine into the same outlet as the one that works, even if you have to lug it across the room to do so? If so, then you can either confirm or eliminate the incoming power as the issue.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 02-21-2015, 01:20 AM:

Good thought Frank. I'll try that tomorrow.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-21-2015, 08:25 AM:

Of course this only happens on the weekend.
If you don't solve it this weekend, call Creators they are more than happy to walk you through the trouble shooting and problem solving. Our popper is about 40 years old, but I suspect little different than yours, so things I've run across in the past...
Thermostat broken or out of adjustment
One of the three elements burned out internally (check continuity on each)
Burned wire in kettle (doesn't look like it from your picture)

Good luck. Glad you have a backup.

Posted by Kerry Fleming (Member # 1657) on 02-21-2015, 11:50 AM:

Does that kettle have thermostats attached to the heating elements? I have Gold Medal poppers. They go through elements & thermostats every now & then. Bad thermostat acts that way.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 02-21-2015, 01:35 PM:

If I recall, the tech manual for that machine gives specs for the actual resistance readings,
for each of the heating elements, as wall as the amperage draw. If you have an amprobe,
it's easy to tell if something is out-of-wack, since you can take the readings without disconnectng
anything.

I could send you the info if you need it, but it would take a day or two since I'm tied up working
at a couple of film festivals and an Oscar event, so I'm not going to be home until Monday,
and I'm not sure you can wait that long.

And, as Martin mentioned, Cretors has always been very helpful to provide tech support
over the phone, as well as sending any documentation you need.

Good Luck!

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 02-21-2015, 02:11 PM:

If it's not a leg on the 220 on the wall outlet, maybe it's the power cord connection to the popper. Had one of those go bad once.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 02-21-2015, 02:54 PM:

Some months ago the "building wiring fault" light on the UPS that I have attached to my computer came on. Interesting, since it never came on before. Power was still flowing as usual and my computer still worked, but I don't like unusual warning lights.

I had an electrician come and look at it and he opened up the panel box where the wiring comes in from the outside meter and gave the screw that attaches the wire to the backplane there a really good crank with a screwdriver. Problem solved. He went through the rest of the circuits in that panel box and gave all of those screws a crank as well.

I guess those things must loosen up over time. I've heard of aluminum wiring loosening up like that, but all of the wiring here is copper. Still not immune, apparently.

If I hadn't had a UPS on my computer with that warning light on it I would never have known there was a problem, since everything was still working as usual.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-21-2015, 05:07 PM:

I was born and raised on Cretors stuff in this industry!.

I have two Diplomats here with the Giles filtration units attached on top and hate the damned things.

I show the cnc staff on what needs to be cleaned, esp with the cornditioner stove blower to keep the front of the blower clean.

Fill the kettle with one inch of water, turn it on and see how many "bubbling rings" are displayed when water comes to boil.

If you only see two rings, one ring took the crash, and it's usually the outside 2KW ring that goes first.

Also, do the continuity check: remove the wires from the ring, and touch with VOM for continuity.

Otherwise, check the two, 110v hots coming in from the wall - both at the wall and at the breaker, by the red probe in one hot and touch the black to the J box cover screw. Then repeat to the other side.

You can also go to the panel where the supply feed is to the popper, find the breaker that runs the popper, put your hand over it and see if it's hot to the touch or not. If so, bet a switch leg within the breaker died on you.

On a four blade plug, outside blades are each, the 110V hot, center blade is neutral and the tongue is ground.

Bet you have an element out, for they do open inside somehow. Do the check by disconnecting the wires from the ring and check for continuity.

Performed PLENTY of repairs on Diplomats, Merchants, Presidents and Profiteers.

good luck - Monte

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-21-2015, 05:18 PM:

One thing to really understand: the power connection is exactly the same as your stove at home. 220 volt, with neutral and ground. The ONLY ITEM THAT IS 220 IS THE ELEMENT SET.

Everything else, and I mean the lights, motor, cornditioner, and thermostat are 120 volt connected to hot and neutral.

I assume you changed all elements? The only thing left is either the thermostat or the mercury relay. Yes, they do fail.

You don't need to be overly concerned about temperature settings. Look up in the manual and see what the cycle time is supposed to be (3 minutes?) Pop 4 or 5 batches and disregard the first 3 batches. Time #4 and #5.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-21-2015, 05:22 PM:

Mercury relays are located in top of the unit.

They're a black unit with two, 110v red wires going in that comes from the switch and the 220v leads from the wall attached to one side of the unit and the 10G Nichrome wire attached to the other side that heads down to the kettle.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-21-2015, 05:57 PM:

Yup, forgot the mercury relay. I've replaced ours at least twice.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 02-21-2015, 08:21 PM:

I'm going to try the Mercury relay. I've had to replace on of these before, but that time it completely blew out - fried wires and the whole nine yards. The one on the popper now appears to be fine.

I have swapped my two poppers and the problem followed the popper. I tried the water thing that Monte recommended. It took about 25 minutes to boil 1/2" of water, but once it boiled I had bubbles across the entire bottom of the kettle.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 02-22-2015, 11:04 AM:

I don't know if this helps, but I found an old (2006) e-mail I had from
Al Karkowski, who at that time was the head of Cretor's service department,
and who was helping me troubleshoot a Diplomat kettle problem.

In the e-mail, he told me that the amp & ohm readings for the kettle
elements in the manual I was using were wrong. Also, many of the
part #'s had changed.

Subsequent manuals have been corrected & updated.

HERE ARE THE CORRECT AMPERAGE READINGS
The 1808-A, 1250 Watt Element should read 10.4 Amps
The 1809-A, 750 Watt Element should read 6.2 Amps
The easiest way to measure amp draw is to place an amprobe or other
inductive ammeter around the BLACK wire from the kettle switch-thingy.

HERE ARE THE CORRECT OHM READINGS
1808-A, 1250 Watt - 11.5 Ohms
1809-A, 750 Watt - 19.2 Ohms

-JC-
(Did I ever tell you about the cowboy who soldered a large resistor
to his electric stove because he wanted an ohm on the range?) [Razz]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-26-2015, 01:48 PM:

And, if any help is needed with any Cretors unit, call up Cretors and ask for Jerry Montoya in parts and service.

good luck - Monte

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 03-02-2015, 08:04 PM:

After numerous tests and too much frustration, it appears the issue was the wrong elements were ordered when I replaced them.

At least I learned a lot about troubleshooting one of these machines.

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 03-04-2015, 04:45 PM:

As I said way back they make several different voltage elements. A very vintage giant 32 I have worked on has 230 volt elements. Became a bit of an issue when we replace the 75 year old main electrical panel in the building. PG&E converted us from the delta 230/110 system to the star 208/110 system. The giant 32 no longer pops as fluffy as it once did. They make 208 volt elements for it as well.