Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Datasat and Qube abandon their customers.

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Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-12-2017, 06:25 AM:

As I have written before in the technical forum, problems with our datasat dc20 continues, and finally Datasat and Qube don't care and don't offer a solution to their customers.
Around the year 2009-2010, datasat was selling their DC20 server, actually made by QUBE as a variant of its QXPD model. We paid 13.000€ for our DC20 server here in Spain in 2010.

Now it seems that these models did not really comply with the DCI regulations and now distributors, aware of this, are beginning to refuse to send films to these servers.
As our server is a Datasat DC20, we have asked Datasat for a solution and they only tell us that we must replace this equipment with another one, since they considered something "normal" that in the future these equipments would need some updating.
We consider that throwing away the current server and buying another new one is NOT an update: it is a complete replacement.
We feel we've been cheated by Datasat: the specs of the DC20 said that it was DCI compliant and now we discover that this is not true, and the big problem is that now, nor Datasat and nor Qube want to take their responsability.

But there is an added problem: these servers had in their DNA a death date engraved, due to a certificates problem. Qube used a windows xp embeeded plattform for these servers that don't let accepts more certificates renewal beyond JUNE 2017 because their certificates trees don't accepts more renewals.

I think everybody need to know how these two brands take care of their clients whe we discover such wrong designs.

I want to contact other users/owners of the Datasat DC20 servers (and Qube XPD) to know how Datasat and Qube are dealing this problem in other areas, and in case, coordinate actions to claim solutions to this problem, and I invite to any Datasat or Qube people to give here their explanations.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-12-2017, 04:27 PM:

If there is one thing about digital technology and the hardware made for it: it is disposable. None of this stuff is made to last any more than about 7-10 years. If the device is working after that, be it a personal computer or some expensive piece of industry specific hardware, it is living on borrowed time.

Some of the problem is the build quality of the products. Various things will break in them with use over time. Another problem is the companies who make those products quickly move from one product generation to the next. Their support can extend backward in time for only so long. They stop making the chips, boards and other components that go into a certain product rather quickly.

Then you have the firmware and software that runs on these products. That stuff is only geared for new products, not devices several years old. I have a notebook I bought in 2011 that has no hardware problems. I've held onto it because so many current notebooks are just shitty, bare bones, over-priced garbage. But I'm going to have to start shopping for a replacement. This nearly 6-year old notebook was pretty high end for the time when it was made. Now it's starting to struggle with the latest software.

Movie theaters are going to be dealing with painful hardware replacement cost issues, if many are not already doing so. We're a solid decade into post d-cinema conversion. Now it's time for a lot of existing 2K projectors and other components to start dying.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 03-12-2017, 04:34 PM:

quote: Juan Jose Garcia Calvo
Qube used a windows xp embeeded plattform for these servers that don't let accepts more certificates renewal beyond JUNE 2017 because their certificates trees don't accepts more renewals.

Just wait until 2019 when the Windows XP Embedded POSReady expires in the millions of Point of sale systems across the world. Companies like Partnertech made a deal with Microsoft to postpone the inevitable.

The amount of money that will be spent on new hardware in our industry both in the booth and on the floor will be astronomical.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-12-2017, 04:39 PM:

Maybe the studios will time their day and date release plans to coincide with that 2019 date, all to really put the screws to movie theaters.

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-12-2017, 04:54 PM:

I agree with some of your opinions, but this time is diferent:
- Datasat cheated us when they sold this server as DCI compliant.
- The DC20 is not obsolete. Actual firmware works OK with no issues, but due a bad design, it can't accept new certificates renewals. This will make die thi server on next June 2017. Datasat (and Qube) have to know this issue from the day they start selling and inform their customers in the specs: "this server will last only until June 2017".

Remember that this is not due any industry changes or advances, new features or new formats...simply these servers was bad designed...

And remember that they sold these servers as DCI, and it wasn't.

I don't know any other server of any brand that must to be throw away. Dolby servers with similar age are working with no problem. Same thing for Doremi, GDC...

In my opinion, DATASAT and QUBE must be responsible with their clients.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 03-12-2017, 07:10 PM:

Not to sound unsympathetic, but if it actually says that the gadget will last only until June in the official specs, and you bought it under those conditions knowing that was the situation, then where is the problem?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-12-2017, 10:17 PM:

I believe he is saying they should have been told this; not that they were. Also, it's not unreasonable to think that updates would be issued to keep things running.

Micro$oft is maintaining XP for various government agencies for big money. It would be nice if they offered updates to everyone else, even if they charged for it.

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-13-2017, 01:55 AM:

Hi Frank: I mean "they should". Obviously they didn't.
(My english maybe is not good enought).
Do you ever buy a car that in his specs are wrote: "this car will last until June 2017 because it accepts fuel until this date. Beyond this date, you can't refill the tank"?
And 7 years later you receive a government letter that, they are sorry but, your model can't be used in your country because it don't meet the security laws?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-13-2017, 11:55 AM:

I don't know how things work in Spain.

In the US, if they sold you a product as "DCI-compliant" and it wasn't, then they need to either make it DCI compliant, replace it with something that is, or refund your money. Where this could get sticky is if it met DCI specifications at the time of manufacture and then those specifications changed. Is this the case?

The time-bomb issue certainly seems to be customer-hostile, but one could probably make the argument that these things have an expected lifespan of five years, so a seven-year certificate expiration date is not unreasonable. This is a pretty lousy way to treat one's customers, but, unfortunately, the 2009-2010 era was a bit early in the development of D-cinema equipment and standards, and some equipment from that era may not be up to 2017 standards.

quote: Steve Kraus
Micro$oft is maintaining XP for various government agencies for big money. It would be nice if they offered updates to everyone else, even if they charged for it.

I believe that they do, if you pay them enough.

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-13-2017, 12:13 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Where this could get sticky is if it met DCI specifications at the time of manufacture and then those specifications changed. Is this the case?

I think there has not been changes in the DCI specs... but maybe there are here in the forum people that could know these DCI specs and maybe can give us their opinions.

Here in Spain is similar, but the problem is that the Spanish dealer that sold us this datasat server now is closed and is missing, but I think that Datasat (as an international brand) must take his responsability even if they are in the US or UK and we are in Spain.

quote: Scott Norwood
The time-bomb issue certainly seems to be customer-hostile, but one could probably make the argument that these things have an expected lifespan of five years, so a seven-year certificate expiration date is not unreasonable. This is a pretty lousy way to treat one's customers, but, unfortunately, the 2009-2010 era was a bit early in the development of D-cinema equipment and standards, and some equipment from that era may not be up to 2017 standards.

Do you really think that is reasonable only 5 or 7 years for a 13.000€ server?
As I said, our server is not obsolote: It plays with no problems Interop and SMPTE DCPs, plays all subtitles, recognize all tipe of DCPs, ingest films in the half time of an Doremi IMS1000, is stable... but... next June it will die.
That proof that the industry didn't change, the specs didn't changed, this is only a bad design and two companies that don't want get their responsability.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-13-2017, 01:28 PM:

I don't think there are any specs in DCI relating to a minimum longevity of any piece of equipment. It's only specifying how that piece of equipment needs to function.

It is not the only piece of gear that you an not re-load a certificate into. The T.I. ICP is another and there is one of those in every single series 2 projector made. I had one toast out just from changing the clock battery. If the certs could be reloaded the board could be brought back to life. I have not had any issues changing anyone elses batteries or losing certs, but I also do not service any series 1 junk.

Mark

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-13-2017, 02:29 PM:

quote: Juan Jose Garcia Calvo
Do you really think that is reasonable only 5 or 7 years for a 13.000€ server?

Personally, no. I would argue that an embedded system like this should be supported for at least a decade, and that this support is part of what justifies the high price for what is, effectively, a $1500 computer plus some additional special hardware and purpose-built software. But the manufacturer may not see it that way, especially since DCI was not exactly mature technology at the time of its manufacture.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-13-2017, 03:39 PM:

If you stop to think about this, the embedded OS should not need any updates, ever. Its a very job specific OS and the only part that might need updates is the actual media block itself and possibly the raid section of the server. Although many other pieces of electronic gear run on embedded XP it does not mean that once MS pulls the plug on it they they are all going to stop working. Just the opposite, they will continue on until the piece of equipment it's running in flat out dies or is simply switched out for new gear.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-14-2017, 07:17 AM:

I don't believe that the DCI spec requires any degree of longevity beyond its specs on an IMB. There the battery has to last, at least 5-years and be able to be changed without losing its time. It must also be able to support up to 20years (date/time range).

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-15-2017, 01:59 AM:

I have to say that I have had a far better experience with Datasat when it comes to legacy products and formats: they were always really helpful in providing backup for our XD-10s and XD-20s, and providing audio content on one or two occasions for prints that came without it. Now that they've sold off the DTS film audio operation to another company (can't remember the name), it's up to them now, but while Datasat were the custodians of it, they did a good job, IMHO.

As for this server, it raises the broader point of people's expectations for the longevity of digital cinema equipment. 35mm projection systems were expected to last half a century with appropriate maintenance and minor upgrades (e.g. sticking a penthouse reader on top of a projector), and theaters budgeted accordingly. Now, even a series 1 projector made in 2007 is no longer officially supported by the manufacturer: I had to put a want post in this forum for a couple of parts I'm looking for to keep ours alive. And I gather that support for the Dolby DSS200, of which we have two in revenue-earning use and one backup unit, is due to end next year.

The impression I get is that theaters simply aren't planning and budgeting for the replacement of projectors and servers on a one decade cycle: many series 1 projectors and earlier generation servers and media blocks won't be replaced until they die and cannot be fixed economically, and/or with the parts and expertise available to their owners when that happens. I'd further speculate that we're on the verge of getting to the point at which this hardware is going to die in significant quantities, and we're going to see some venues have serious problems dealing with that when it happens.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 03-15-2017, 02:12 AM:

Just at the point where a lot of those VPF deals are paid out, too.

I wonder what will happen when some of these folks who got their equipment on a VPF find out that "you're on your own, Jack" the next time.

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-15-2017, 03:54 AM:

They are going to be big problems, Frank.
We never had VPF for our equipment. Little cinema theaters like ours didn't have rights to get the VPF here...

In my point of view, this is not an programmed obsolescence problem. The server works flawless with no problems at all. Their obsolescence will occur in a few years, of course, but the DC20 is a only 7 years old server that will die because the designed certificate tree can't accept more renewals. This is simply a BAD DESIGN.

Another added problem is their NON DCI compliance. You can get on the internet the PDF specs sheet of the DC20 (signed by Datasat) where you can read the DC20 is DCI compliant, and now it seems not to be DCI compliant.
This is not because the certificates tree issue. As Warner said in his letter, these QUBE servers had two broken security cases detected in Italy, and they saw they are not DCI compliant, so they were going to stop sending films for these servers.

The only solution DATASAT told me some weeks ago was to accept the offer I've received from QUBE to buy an old stock QXPD with no warranty and no spare parts at reduced price. I thought that was not acceptable, and I wrote several emails with no answer.
Yesterday, after some weeks with no answer from Datasat to my emails, I received an email from him saying that they were looking for another solution but as I wrote this post, they stops all their efforts...
I just told him that in the same way I wrote about the problems, I would write about an hipotetic good solution if they gave it...

Next step for us is to go to the European Union courts to tell him this pre-contractual false publicity.

Any other advice will be welcomed

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-15-2017, 09:27 AM:

http://www.dcimovies.com/compliant_equipment/
If you scroll down you will find that qube equipment was tested and passed DCI specifications
From day one of the digital conversion I think everyone was aware that this technology like all technology had a short life span
And the last time i checked that server has been discontinued for that amount of time

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-15-2017, 11:28 AM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
I have to say that I have had a far better experience with Datasat when it comes to legacy products and formats: they were always really helpful in providing backup for our XD-10s and XD-20s, and providing audio content on one or two occasions for prints that came without it. Now that they've sold off the DTS film audio operation to another company (can't remember the name), it's up to them now, but while Datasat were the custodians of it, they did a good job, IMHO.

This is from the "Kong Skull Island in 5/70mm" thread in the Film Handler's forum:

quote: Daniel Schulz
The technology is in good hands; Datasat has licensed it to a company in LA called Inventure Studios, which is basically the last man standing for optical soundtracks for film. Inventure has several staffers from what used to be the premiere shop doing optical tracks for film (including quad track SR/SRD/DTS/SDDS), and also has on staff the DTS/Datasat engineer who used to be responsible for maintaining all of the sound cameras around the world for shooting DTS timecode. They all work really closely with Fotokem, so I think the ecosystem can be kept up for as long as the studios demand 5/70 prints with Datasat sound.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-17-2017, 06:04 AM:

One of the reason I retired (besides being able) was the "10 year economic life cycle" promised by ALL manufacturers. The whole thing was a bit of a scam when viewed from the perspective of the small town theatre owner.

Please understand the "10 year-ness." The life cycle starts with an idea, then planning, drawings, beta testing, then final production. Us end-users will see 4-6 years of that. ANYTHING AFTER THAT REDUCES CORPORATE PROFITS.g

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-17-2017, 07:03 AM:

The interesting question here is, what is actually keeping them from prolonging the server certificate? Our Sony and Barco media blocks have certificates that expire 2043. Why was the Qube ever set up/supplied with a certificate that expired already in 2017?

There may be a relation to the underlying OS, I don't know how the server certificate and the underlying OS interact here. It may be that for some reason the embedded XPs license mechanism is running out and a connected media block certificate is bound to that mechanism. It is weird, though, that this machine's certificate did already expire at least two or three times before and needed to be prolonged. That would mean the initial certificate was only valid for 3 years or so. Come on...
It's also not clear why in these cases the certificate was only prolonged for a single year, especially if they now quote a limited number of allowed renewals as the reason for no further prolongation. Sounds like shit to me...

Doremis run on linux kernels that are over 10 years old now, they do not seem to have any of these issues. Shows that a proprietary closed OS may be a very bad choice.

I don't think DCI thought of a mechanism to withdraw DCI compliancy for select equipment. They wouldn't need to. If certain equipment showed a severe weakness years after deployment, they could blacklist the specific devices serials/certs only. In this case, it seems there is a mix of issues, one with the expiring cert, one with alleged security issue. In the latter case, I guess it's up to the local distributors to allow or disallow KDM generation for that series of machines. Remember, there was a time when no equipment at all was DCI compliant, but was still supplied with encrypted content and KDMs.

Yes, Datasat is responsible formally as the company who sold it, but only Qube is able to solve it technically. It's an interesting question how this machine relates to their current servers.

- Carsten

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-17-2017, 09:51 AM:

I guess another question is why are we hearing about this only from one theatre owner after all Qube sold a fair number of systems world wide

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-17-2017, 12:21 PM:

Very good question, Mr McLeod...

Maybe Other owners don't use these forums...
Maybe other owners don't mind to buy another server (new or old stock at reduced price)...
Maybe I'm the only Datasat DC20 server buyer...
Maybe in other countries DATASAT or QUBE has offered a free solution to their customers...

In fact, I know another film-tech forum user with a Datasat DC20 that answered me by PM. I don't know why they want write about his experience here, but if they prefer to be annonimous in this problem, it's up to they...

About the QUBE servers, there are two different series: 1 and 2.
The DC20 is equivalent to the series 2 XPD, and these servers have a upgrade procedure to "Windows 7 standard" (somekind of light OS version of Win7) and this upgrade solve the DCI compliance and the certificates issues.
Some people told me that this upgrade is not stable, but it seem to works... and this is the system that they offered me at reduced price as solution.

So, I think this upgrade sould be performed to our datasat servers, maybe with some little work, like adopting the motherboard drivers to accept the DC20 motherboard, the ASUS P5Qdlx. I think they don't want to make this work [Frown]

The worse part of this is for the QUBE XPD series 1 servers owners...

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 03-17-2017, 09:13 PM:

GDC still sells a series 1 compatible server.

Posted by Juan Jose Garcia Calvo (Member # 1702) on 03-25-2017, 07:27 AM:

Did you herad or worked with the digicine systems?

They claim to "convert" a series 1 projector into a series 2.
Thy sell an "sleeve" to let a series2 server to work with series 1 projectors:
DIGICINE BROCHURE

And what about chinese servers from ORISTAR?
ORISTAR (you need to translate it, because it's in chinese language)

Thanks!!

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-25-2017, 10:32 AM:

I don't know how your Qube issue will come out for you, but, after that experience, I would certainly go with a more common platform/brand.

At the time you bought your system, the market may have been less clearly structured than it is now. I have never seen a single Qube server in germany. The only systems that had been used here were some XPE for some time at festivals, but none of them was ever deployed in 'real' cinemas, and neither was the XP-D followup.

- Carsten

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-25-2017, 01:38 PM:

quote: Juan Jose Garcia Calvo
They claim to "convert" a series 1 projector into a series 2. Thy sell an "sleeve" to let a series2 server to work with series 1 projectors:
DIGICINE BROCHURE

As I understand it:

Series 1 = media block is in the server, with dual-link HD-SDI output from the media block to a gore board in the projector, encrypted using Cinelink II TLS. The decryption key is communicated separately through the booth's LAN connection between the server and projector.

Series 2 = the encrypted DCP data exactly as ingested is passed through a cat5 or 6 connection from the server to an IMB in the projector; the IMB decrypts it, and passes it through the backplane of the projector's card cage to the TI board.

So this "sleeve" isn't converting the projector at all: what it's doing is to take the output from a server that does not have any media block built in to it, decrypting it, re-encrypting it using TLS, and then passing it through dual-link HD-SDI to the series 1 projector's gore board. Basically, it's a series 1 media block, but in an external box, separate from the server.

I see no reason why this setup wouldn't work or be reliable, but you can buy a used Dolby DSS200 with a built-in cat862 media block for around $5-8k, update the software, replace the fans, hard drives and CMOS battery, and then effectively you've got yourself a new server. If you go to a series 2 projector later, you can put an IMB in it and away you go. The only thing that would scupper that plan is the inability to get hold of a Dolby IMB (cat745) when the time came (I believe that they're not made anymore), but I remain to be convinced that the Digicine approach is the most cost effective solution for someone looking for a new server, who currently has a series 1/gore board projector, but is looking to upgrade to a series 2 projector in, say, the next year or two.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-28-2017, 11:29 AM:

Interesting to note that Qube will be having a tradesow booth at cinemacon this year