Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Movies are WAY too loud!

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Posted by Thomas Pitt (Member # 4322) on 01-29-2018, 05:25 PM:

Has anyone else noticed that the sound level in movie theatres seems to have gone up in recent years? Back in the early 2000s, the sound level was enough to enjoy the movie without being uncomfortable; you could appreciate explosions and weren't deafened by dialogue. Since 2010, my father has been unable to cope with the volume in the theatre and has to wear earplugs. I could tolerate the sound level, but it still seemed too loud for my liking.
Now, in the last couple of years, movies have generally been too loud even for me to tolerate! Simple speech segments are painfully loud and even I'm having to use earplugs!

Anyone know the reason they've become louder, or is it just my hearing becoming more sensitive as I get older (opposite of what I expected)?
More than once we have asked if the sound could be turned down, but they always say they're not allowed to because it's calibrated to a certain level - particularly in IMAX.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-29-2018, 06:14 PM:

I agree that big theaters play movies too loud. The trailer presentations at CinemaCon are stupidly deafening, or at least they were the last time I went.

I don't think movies are getting louder though -- it's just that all the big blockbusters these days are superhero, action, and such genres that are loud by nature.

I always adjust the volume to where the dialogue sounds natural to me based on my years of experience, and the rest of it takes care of itself. People who automatically set the volume to the "reference level" are either towing the corporate line, or they're just not concerned with showmanship.

I had a guy in the business (now retired) tell me that if you don't get one or two complaints a year that it's too loud, then it's not loud enough. We don't get complaints anymore though, either because our audience (which is 95% repeat customers) is used to our sound, or because they like it the way it is. I'm inclined to hope it's the latter.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-29-2018, 08:01 PM:

Thomas - if you regularly go to IMAX cinemas, I am not surprised. They are known to play painfully loud, and usually they are under a policy to play according to IMAX specs.

I don't think you would notice the same tendency in other cinemas. Digital sound production and improved audio systems certainly allow cinema sound to play with higher dynamics, but not necessarily too loud.

I agree to that retired guy, that the occasional complaint is a good proof you are doing it right. We shouldn't always play on the soft side just by assuming a comfortable listening level. At least occasionally, also sensitive people have to get a little kick in cinema. No, I don't advise these levels for the romantic comedy. Just for those cases when a sensitive person accidentally turns up for an action or Scifi flic. If you don't get the occasional complaint in that scenario, you are doing something wrong.

In general, yes, aiming at a common sense dialog level will get you in the right ballpark. But then aim up from there, not down.

- Carsten

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 01-29-2018, 10:20 PM:

Thomas: You may just be getting sensitive to certain frequencies as you get older, particularly high end. We have lots of old folks at our theatre and is quite noticeable. They'll say the voices are fine, but them some music will come up, or, say, a jet plane and they freak out.
But agreed, many theaters play too loud, especially the trailers.

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 01-29-2018, 10:30 PM:

What fader level are people playing movies at? If at 7.0, supposedly this matches the level the movie was mixed at on the dub stage. But, most theaters seem to use a considerably lower fader level.

Harold

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-29-2018, 10:46 PM:

With respect to complaints--I feel as if most people are more sensitive to distortion and poor dialogue intelligibility than to absolute loudness. A sound system with problems tends to cause people to complain. If the auditorium and sound system are of top quality, it should be possible to play a well-mixed film at very close to 7.0 without generating complaints from customers. If there has been a recent increase in customer complaints, I would look to see if there are problems with the sound system or auditorium.

That said, if it's too loud, turn it down.

I haven't noticed an increase in movie sound levels over time, but I haven't tried to make a scientific comparison, either. Trailers and commercials have always been mixed too loud, and that does not seem to have changed.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-30-2018, 01:57 AM:

I'd say that on average across all movies being released, movies haven't really gotten much louder, but the usage of the surround channels has noticeably increased over the last years.

Also, the number of movies really pushing the envelope on what people can bear has also been increased.

Digital systems are extremely dynamic, so it should be possible to create a dialog on normal levels, intelligible for practically anyone, combined with bone-rattling explosions where needed. Unfortunately, not all sound mixes are living up to those standards.

I guess that one of the louder movies of last year was Blade Runner 2049. I personally liked it at "reference level", though I can imagine it was close to the edge or even over it for many and I'm not sure if I would play it at 7.0 at all occasions.

There are also movies which I consider defective in regards to their sound mix. One of them is Interstellar. I do know that Nolan considers "his" mix to be perfectly fine, but I think he needs to see a doctor. This movie features enormous loud scenes with a lot of muffled dialogue. If you play it at 7.0, you shatter people's ears and people are still unable to understand some of the dialogue in there. The director may claim that that's the way he intended it to be, but most people tend to appreciate the movie better when they can follow what people are saying, even when it doesn't really add anything to the plot. If people are not following the characters on screen, they're in the impression of missing out on something, a hard way to enjoy a movie.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 01-30-2018, 08:15 AM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
If people are not following the characters on screen, they're in the impression of missing out on something, a hard way to enjoy a movie.

He never said he wanted you to "enjoy" it. [evil]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-30-2018, 09:19 AM:

Agreed with Scott: dialogue intelligibility and absolute loudness are the two audio issues that customers tend to be most sensitive to (hence the reason My Name is Joe had to be shown in the US subtitled - audiences simply couldn't understand the thick Scottish accents!).

I wouldn't go as far as Woody Allen and Alfred Hitchcock (both of whom hate(d) multi-channel sound in the theater and refuse(d) to use it), but one advantage of the mono mix is that the mixer has a lot more control over what the audience hears, and therefore it is within his or her ability to make sure that the dialogue is intelligible. Creating a complex and engaging mono mix is not easy (watch/listen to I Am a Fugitive From a Chain Gang or The Wages of Fear if you don't believe me), though today's audiences are unlikely to recognize or understand the achievement.

With multi-channel mixes, there is so much that can go wrong at the theater end, over which the mixing and mastering personnel have no control, of which poor room tuning is at the top of the list.

The only times I've ever played modern 5.1 or 7.1 mixes at reference level were for studio premieres, when I was ordered to do so, at metaphorical gunpoint. Even among those invited audiences, there were always multiple complaints. Part of the problem is that these tracks are often normalized to way louder than DCI level (-20dBFS), presumably because the filmmaker wants the audience to experience uncomfortable loudness. I remember one such show - a documentary about Curt Cobain - in which, played at reference level, the words he was singing were clearly audible through the very thick, nitrate-certified booth wall, with all the booth monitor speakers totally off!

California law states that employees cannot be subjected to 92dB for more than eight minutes in every eight hours, without being given ear protection. If movies were all played at 7.0, every theater owner in the state would have to wear earmuffs, like the workers on airport ramps use, and issue them to their staff.

As for hearing changing with age, I seem to have bucked the trend: my higher frequency hearing has deteriorated over the last few years, and I've become more sensitive to lower frequency sounds. When playing the organ, I can barely hear 2' pitch stops now, especially when using them in a wide registration. Listening to recorded music at home, my wife complains that there's no bass, so much so that I've installed a subwoofer that is on when she's listening and powered down when I am.

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 01-30-2018, 09:38 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood
With respect to complaints--I feel as if most people are more sensitive to distortion and poor dialogue intelligibility than to absolute loudness. A sound system with problems tends to cause people to complain. If the auditorium and sound system are of top quality, it should be possible to play a well-mixed film at very close to 7.0 without generating complaints from customers. If there has been a recent increase in customer complaints, I would look to see if there are problems with the sound system or auditorium.

Yes. Exactly. And if you built your building with cheap equipment, you're not meant to be playing at reference level in the first place. Your speakers can't properly handle it.

Know your system and manage your levels accordingly.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-30-2018, 12:14 PM:

I don't know. Maybe I'm not visiting the "right" theaters or something because most of the time I find movie theater sound these days to have wimpy, under-powered sub-bass and dynamics toned-down everywhere else on the frequency range. Hell, it seems like any movie I see in a standard priced auditorium is running the sound at ordinary home TV speakers volume. Barely dynamic at all.

Depending on the auditorium's configuration I might hear some decent surround activity. But that, too, is a crap shoot lately. The theater may advertise Atmos, but a theater can go all over the damned map with how much or little it spends on amplifiers and other components to really make that format shine. There is no way to know if a theater that installed Atmos (or Auro, DTS-X, etc) did so on the cheap. And even if the theater has a fully tricked out Atmos rig the sound system is totally at the mercy of a movie's post production crew. It takes a lot of work to create a great quality Atmos mix and sound designers only seem to get stupidly short amounts of time to do their work. So we often get Atmos tracks that are Atmos in name only; they sound no different than an ordinary 5.1 mix.

IMAX-branded theaters can get uncomfortably loud (and harsh on the EQ side of things), but they seem to be the exception rather than the norm. The one here in Lawton doesn't play its movies nearly loud as it did when the Patriot 13 first opened. I've visited a few Dolby Cinema-branded theaters. None have been what I would consider to be painfully loud or show off dynamics that would startle viewers.

Maybe they're cranking the volume in other places. I don't know. But I still feel like we're a long way from the early 1990's era where 5.1 digital sound was a new, novel thing and film makers pushed the dynamics of sound mixes really hard. Moments in Jurassic Park, The Lion King and Fight Club would jolt the hell out of viewers, but it also depended on a theater having a powerful, well-EQ'ed sound system -like the GCC Northpark 1-2 in Dallas way back then. It has been a very long time since I've visited a commercial movie theater whose sound system could rumble the air in my chest. Modern stadium seated theaters just don't seem to have that kind of punch.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-30-2018, 12:50 PM:

Our 'typical' main feature level is 5.5 (AP20/old JBL THX speaker system, 460seat 'semi-wet' auditorium usually filled to 1/3 to 1/2 from the back). Typically, when I am in the auditorium watching the movie myself, I tend to push it up a bit, like 5.7 to 6 on my iPhone a few minutes into the movie. We strictly play preshow at 4.5. As many single screeners, we play a mix of mainstream/action and dialogue/arthouse features, so we deal with the full spectrum of audience expectations.

I played 'Blade Runner 2049' at 6.5, knowing that we would get 'some' complaints. But we also received some respect for it. Our sound system is certainly not up to todays standards, but everything works. I really enjoyed the massive Blade Runner 2049 sound track, wow...

I played SW8 at 6.5 in the opening night (those midnight nerds can stand it), and at 6 during the remaining engagement. Yes, some minor complaints after the movie, but nothing serious.

I am not ignorant towards complaints, but playing soft in order to get no complaints is like putting more and more sugar into your popper every day...

- Carsten

Posted by Julian Antos (Member # 5497) on 01-30-2018, 01:28 PM:

IMO the only thing worse than a movie played to loud is one played too quiet. If the crinkling of candy wrappers, munching of popcorn, murmurs of senior citizens, squeaky seats, and the HVAC system should all be gracefully drowned out by voices which are (comfortably) larger than life. We run all manner of films but for those that have been mixed to industry standards we generally do 7.0 with a full house and 6.0 with an empty one.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 01-30-2018, 06:20 PM:

The theaters I go to are playing some movies too loud, IMO, but I think the problem is more the mix than the theater. As I've written before, I think that directors are insecure about their films and think they can create emotion by cranking up the volume. I think both in movies and in the record and concert business, just about everyone has forgotten what dynamic range is. When two characters in the film are having a quiet conversation and it sounds like they're yelling at you in the theater, there's a problem.

I've wondered whether my aging has caused me to be more sensitive or whether it's because I'm losing high frequencies, but then I realize that it's unlikely the theater sound system is putting out much above 10KHz anyway. I look around and see younger people holding their ears.

Unfortunately, I keep forgetting to bring a sound level meter with me to the theater, so I can get some real data and learn for sure whether it's me or the system.

I think part of the problem is that the levels in the theater are set for a full crowd and bodies absorb an incredible amount of sound. But these days, I more frequently wind up at movies during the day when the theaters are empty.

The other issue is that I've noticed that in spite of all the surround systems, the levels really fall off as I move back in the theater, especially in the few larger theaters that still exist. So what's too loud about a third way back from the screen is too low in the back rows.

And trailers are generally much louder than the feature. I thought Dolby had established some kind of voluntary standard for levels some decades ago. Maybe that went out the window with digital presentation .

I think it's ridiculous that with all the tech we have available today, theater sound sounded better to me back in the mag analog days. For the best sounding films, it used to take my breath away it was so good.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 01-31-2018, 12:09 AM:

The worst offender, in my neck of the woods, are the movies from India. We do not run our processors at 7, considerably lower than that, actually, but we find when we play an Indian title we have to turn the fader down even more.

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 01-31-2018, 07:24 PM:

I've said this before, but if a theater isn't showing movies at reference level, I'm not going to return to that theater unless I have to.

Low sound levels are one reason why I more often wait to see a movie on home video, when I can actually listen to a movie at the proper volume. The only theater near me that comes anywhere close to proper sound levels is the Regal IMAX Colorado Center.

In the past few years the only theaters in my experience that regularly seem to actually play films at their proper volume levels are the ArcLight in Hollywood and one spectacular evening I got to watch a movie at the main Paramount screening room. (An experience I will never, ever forget as it is likely to be the only time I ever get to see a theatrical film presented as intended with the right sound level, the right brightness, perfect focus, no bleed-through from the theater next door, etc.)

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-31-2018, 09:38 PM:

I'd be interested to hear your opinion of our sound here. If you said it was too soft, you'd be the first person to ever say that. But we almost never play at 7; it's really impressive-sounding, but the dialogue just sounds too loud at that volume. If memory serves, I think the last movie I played at 7 was Sully, it had a really low mix for some reason.

I saw a movie at the Dolby screening room a few years ago, and it was indeed impressive but it was just too damn loud to be enjoyable. (Part of the problem being it was a Transformers movie.)

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 01-31-2018, 11:03 PM:

I'm one of those who believes there is no such thing as "too loud" unless the system is being overdriven and can't handle it.

But that's why I always loved THX theaters where they were supposed to always show films at reference level.

Ironically, I bet the volume at which you heard that Transformers film is what I would have heard in the screening room at Paramount, given that's where Michael Bay screens.

Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 01-31-2018, 11:36 PM:

Actually the mid to late 90s were a pretty bad time for overloud theaters. It was like multiplexes wanted to show off their digital systems. AMC would overcrank those Sony surrounds.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-01-2018, 02:02 AM:

quote: William Kucharski
I'm one of those who believes there is no such thing as "too loud" unless the system is being overdriven and can't handle it.

But that's why I always loved THX theaters where they were supposed to always show films at reference level.

Ironically, I bet the volume at which you heard that Transformers film is what I would have heard in the screening room at Paramount, given that's where Michael Bay screens.

Obviously, there is something like "too loud". Many of the better designed systems have sufficient headroom to drive sound at levels it actually becomes a health risk.

Many jurisdictions even limit the amount of sound pressure per time interval you may expose people to. Exceeding those levels can, in some cases, be seen as an offense or depending on the case and jurisdiction even be considered a criminal case.

I like to play movies the way the director intended them to be, in a correctly calibrated room where "7.0" meets the specs. This does have a limit though. If the intended volume hits a pain-threshold at the larger public and if it's actually a health risk for their hearing, I'm not going to follow the director's/sound designer's (most likely unintentional) wacky vision of a population with hearing aids.

Also, even between two perfectly calibrated rooms, "7.0" may not sound exactly like "7.0" for every soundtrack, even if there is a THX label on it.

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 02-01-2018, 01:43 PM:

By the way, the QSC LSS-100 logs the maximum SPL (C-weighted) it sees each day. Since the LSS is mounted on the back wall of the auditorium, it's not a super-accurate representation of what each patron is exposed to. Also, sound exposure limits normally use A-weighted and are integrated over a period of time. But, this is better than nothing.

Here's captured data from an art house theater. The one very low reading was Christmas eve. I guess they may not have been open that day.

Harold

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-01-2018, 02:40 PM:

quote: Pravin Ratnam
Actually the mid to late 90s were a pretty bad time for overloud theaters. It was like multiplexes wanted to show off their digital systems. AMC would overcrank those Sony surrounds.

They were probably struggling to keep up with rival theaters equipped with much better quality sound systems, able to do digital sound correctly. Theaters like the GCC Northpark 1-2 in Dallas could startle the hell out of you with the sheer dynamics, but the audio wasn't painful either. A cheaper sound system or even a good one not tuned properly will sound more harsh and even painful when cranked up. Some movies, such as Goldeneye (and several other MGM titles in the 1990's) had very hot DTS tracks. Top shelf theaters would re-adjust for each movie. Now that just about all those great theaters are gone and we have so much stadium seated same-ness all over the country movie sound has turned into a pretty ordinary, unremarkable thing. I watched The Shape of Water last night at a local movie theater. It was a good movie, but the theater's sound presentation of it was not special at all.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 02-02-2018, 09:23 AM:

Even the premium theaters around here are unimpressive when it comes to sound, so I haven't encountered a situation where a theater was too loud. The good news is that I haven't encountered a theater where the sound was flawed because of distortion or failed equipment. I guess if you never drive the speakers very high, it's difficult to stress them out, so maybe that's their plan all along...

It's surprising to hear that movie soundtracks continue to be so variable in their mixes on DCP. I know that most home video releases are re-mixed in some way, but only rarely do I come across a need to move the volume knob off the usual setting when I watch movies in my home theater.

For that that find this great variability, or complaints when the sound is played at 7:

When is the last time you had your auditoriums checked and calibrated?

Is it standard practice to do so on a regular basis, or do you wait for complaints or your own observation that something isn't right?

I'm not trying to "blame the theater" for issues like this (at least not completely), but it's reasonable to determine if the environment has changed from the last time it was checked and calibrated.

I think it's a big mistake to play movies too softly, as that would be missing an opportunity to leave a positive impression on the audience that they're likely not going to get from their soundbars at home. If someone is going to an action movie like Star Wars or Black Panther and surprised when the action scenes shake their insides, they chose the wrong movie.

Maybe you could have a middle of the day low-volume-just-like-your-tv's-internal-speakers showing for those sensitive folks?

I'm happy to show up on your deadest evening if you promise to crank it up to reasonable levels and have the sound equipment and room to do the job, so maybe Monday night could be "we play it loud and proud" night?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-02-2018, 09:50 AM:

quote: James Westbrook
The worst offender, in my neck of the woods, are the movies from India. We do not run our processors at 7, considerably lower than that, actually, but we find when we play an Indian title we have to turn the fader down even more.

That's true, they leave no headroom at all in their mixes, they're already freakin' loud at our preshow level. They demand us to raise the level even further, and we usually end up somewhere between 5-5.5, which is around our standard fader setting, but boy...

Which is not a real problem, as these are special events, and while of course we do program these shows with fader cues, we know we always have to check and adjust manually.

- Carsten

Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 02-03-2018, 01:31 AM:

I saw Baahubali 2 in a Regal multiplex and the sound was obnoxiously so loud I wanted to take a gun and shoot the damn screen.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 02-03-2018, 05:02 AM:

Loudness in cinemas is a quite debated and subjective matter.
Indeed I don't go to a cinema unless I know they are going to show the movie at a decent level. But the issue is not just the fader setting here.
I believe a few points have to be kept into account

1. Room acoustic. Bad acoustic will make the movie sound loud and 'bad' in general. You can have the best sound system and the best EQ but the sound will be awful if acoustic is not good.
2. EQ. A good EQ is a rare thing. Not many technicians will spend much time on an EQ (checking everything before starting, doing sound tests at the end etc). The average EQ is a single mike on a broomstick, X-curve dialled in and walk away.
3. Sound system. Does the sound system have enough headroom to avoid distortion? Distortion won't be necessarily very noticeable but the more distortion you have, the more unpleasant the sound becomes. When distortion actually becomes noticeable that means the sound system is WAY underspec'd and I wouldn't consider that a cinema!
4. Sound system 2 - Is the sound system of good quality?
5. Sound system maintenance: is the sound checked periodically, are all the amps working etc?
6. Subjectiveness. What sounds great and enjoyable for one may be ear-bleeding for someone else.
7. Staff does not really check movie levels these days. They set the volume to a fixed value and that's it. As not every film - unfortunately - are mixed at the same level, the only level that can work with all of them is the dreaded 5.5.

A movie shown at 7 in a very good room may sound very pleasant while the same movie shown at 7 in a bad room may sound absolutely awful to the point where it's turned down to stop offending.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-03-2018, 08:53 PM:

A movie played at 7 here doesn't sound "bad," it just sounds like the dialogue is a lot louder than dialogue needs to be. So we usually settle on somewhere around 5 and it's still nice and thumpin'.

There is about twice the difference between 4 and 5 as there is between 6 and 7 though. There was a graph somewhere on the forum that illustrated this -- on a Dolby processor at least, most of the "difference" is from 3 to 4 and the curve levels off quickly after that.

Posted by Sascha F. Roll (Member # 9043) on 02-03-2018, 10:13 PM:

Mike is partly right.
Indead most Faders are non-linear below 4.0 but 4.0 to 5.0, 5.0 to 6.0 etc. is always 3dB difference.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-04-2018, 06:41 PM:

When films like the Woody Allen films are mixed mono, to they usually utilize only the center channel or is that mix spread over the screen L C R? A tech I am working with is pretty sure all screen channels are utilized even in a mono mix. I am skeptical. I would grab one of the BluRays and have a listen but it is folly to assume that the BluRay mix is what was heard in the theatre, especially since they know consumers' penchant for wanting ALL of the speakers in their home systems to be making sounds regardless. We know how everyone insists on hearing those surrounds as loud as the screen channels...even theatre owners.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-04-2018, 08:22 PM:

I can't recall how Woody Allen's films have worked, but I've had lots of "classics" converted to DCP that utilize LCR with the center getting about 90% of the action and LC as filler for, I guess, a little depth reinforcement.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-04-2018, 08:56 PM:

Using a center for dialog does not make much sense if you copy that signal to L and R.

I guess a minimal useful distribution would be to have dialog in center and stereo music on L/R.

That said - many of the music pieces 'typically' featured in Woody Allen movies certainly have been recorded in mono...

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-06-2018, 12:21 PM:

The thread should be titled Previews Are Too Loud.... Movies in my own opinion are just about right.

Mark

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-06-2018, 01:48 PM:

Agreed on that...what ever happened to TASA?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-06-2018, 03:34 PM:

Actually TASA and SAWA regulations are stricter enforced nowadays than before. They are just not practical - while you may stand one or two ads or trailers at SAWA/TASA spec levels, the typical 20-30min pre show program at these levels will annoy the largest part of typical audiences. There is still a loudness war, in part because ad and trailer mixers now HAVE an LEQ(m) number, so they always maximize to it...

- Carsten

Posted by Jay Wyatt (Member # 8768) on 02-06-2018, 04:04 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The thread should be titled Previews Are Too Loud.... Movies in my own opinion are just about right.

I feel the same way. The preshow ads and trailers play way too loud so ears are already fatigued by the time the movie starts.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-06-2018, 04:30 PM:

And right there Jay has hit the nail on the head.

If you look back over the last 18 years this subject has turned up on these forums, my standard fader settings still apply in most of my theaters.

Trailers run between 3.5 - 4.0 on the fader and I collapse the sound (no subs, no surrounds)

Features run 6.5 - 7.5 on the fader (all channels, no fold-down).

Nothing has changed as far as I'm concerned. Trailers should NEVER sound "bigger" or more "impressive" than the feature presentation...period. (And no I still don't give a flip if your profession is a trailer mixer.)

Complaints are VERY RARE to happen using this technique. The end result is people aren't fatigued by the time the movie starts and the features get played at or very close to reference level, the feature presentation overall is superior and everyone leaves the theater happy.

For those interested, preshow advertising audio is collapsed all the way down to mono. Then when content that people actually give a shit about starts (the previews), they get LCR stereo. Then the feature kicks in full throttle with all channels playing. It's an old classic presentation trick sort of like "opening the curtains", but with the sound.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-06-2018, 07:54 PM:

Now, if there was a way to attach a command in the show end cue to turn the volume down via network to the processors to a programmed level, then on the feature cue, attach a command to the preset volume for the desired feature setting...

..or, separate cues that could be place just before the feature and show end cues...

-Monte

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 02-06-2018, 08:40 PM:

Old processors were good for this. You could have the trailers at "remote fader control" and switch by automation cue to the "local fader" for the feature.

Only required one small piece of foil on the edge of the film to do it.

Certainly there is a digital equivalent.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-06-2018, 10:22 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
For those interested, preshow advertising audio is collapsed all the way down to mono. Then when content that people actually give a shit about starts (the previews), they get LCR stereo. Then the feature kicks in full throttle with all channels playing. It's an old classic presentation trick sort of like "opening the curtains", but with the sound.

These days I think that is a perfect way to handle it. There's nothing special about modern movie trailers. It's just like web sites cranked out via WordPress: nothing creative. It's the same edits, whoosh sound effects and other clip-art bullshit. The marketing department probably made 20 variations of it. In the off chance I buy a new movie on Blu-ray disc I really don't care if the trailers, TV spots, etc are missing.

I guess it was around the early to mid 1990's when movie trailers started bundling in 5.1 channel digital audio mixes. And years prior to that some trailers included with 70mm shows featured 6-track mixes.

Way back then such trailers had a novelty to them since most trailers were just stereo or mono. I would still love to watch a 70mm version of that Total Recall teaser trailer again (no proper 5.1 mix of it has ever been done on DVD or Blu-ray). The times I saw it, attached to 70mm shows in Manhattan theaters, late 1989 & early 1990 there wasn't a half hour of TV commercials and trailers to slog through before the feature. IIRC, when I watched Glory in 70mm that Total Recall teaser was the only thing that played before the movie started.

I remember being blown away by teaser trailers for Twister and Independence Day. One of the trailers for Fellowship of the Ring was really awesome. But by the time the LOTR movies were hitting theaters trailer volume versus feature volume was ridiculous.

Since then movie trailers have committed all kinds of other serious sins, the chief one being spoiling the damned movie. So if I'm really interested in a certain movie I'll try to avoid watching trailers in advance. These days it's very easy to see any new movie trailer online, even with digital surround sound. Sites like The Digital Theater will let you download copies of them in multiple surround sound formats. Download it and crank it on your home rig. If a commercial movie theater tones it down during the pre-show you're not missing anything.

Posted by Mike Croaro (Member # 3123) on 02-07-2018, 12:14 PM:

Bobby Henderson wrote:

"Since then movie trailers have committed all kinds of other serious sins, the chief one being spoiling the damned movie."

Mike C. responds:

Remember when trailers "wet" the appetite but didn't give away the whole story?

A perfect example IMO is the 1970's trailer for "The Little Girl Who Lives Down the Lane" Watch it on youtube...you'll see what I mean.

Mike

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-07-2018, 12:43 PM:

The first trailer I thought of when thinking about trailers that don't give anything away:
Albert Brooks' Real Life
Real Life Trailer in 3D!

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 02-07-2018, 01:18 PM:

quote: Mike Croaro
The Little Girl Who Lives Down the Lane

One of my all-time favourite movies.

My sound system and cuing is set up such that the trailers play at a lower volume and then the "feature" cue cranks it up (and turns the lights down one more notch). Otherwise some of those trailers would blow you out of the room.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-07-2018, 03:02 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
These days I think that is a perfect way to handle it. There's nothing special about modern movie trailers. It's just like web sites cranked out via WordPress: nothing creative. It's the same edits, whoosh sound effects and other clip-art bullshit. The marketing department probably made 20 variations of it. In the off chance I buy a new movie on Blu-ray disc I really don't care if the trailers, TV spots, etc are missing.

If you look at old trailers, then I'm not so sure if the bar was really so much higher for a whole lot of them back then. You simply tend to forget all the shitty ones. [Wink]

The structure of the average trailer has most definitely changed and there are way too many trailers out there that outright spoil a movie, by exposing essential plot lines and even twists.

Making a really good trailer is an art in itself. There have been lots of bad trailers for good movies. I think a trailer should expose as little information as possible about the actual plot, but still try to capture the 'mood' of the movie.

I still remember this teaser for Spielberg's 2005 version of War of the Worlds.

Though the movie itself was probably only mediocre, the teaser, which featured almost exclusive content not in the final cut of the movie, I consider this to be one of the better teasers/trailers made until today.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-07-2018, 04:05 PM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
If you look at old trailers, then I'm not so sure if the bar was really so much higher for a whole lot of them back then. You simply tend to forget all the shitty ones.

Yes, there was no shortage of shitty movie trailers back then. But at least some trailers were good. These days new trailers are pretty much all re-hashed crap. Standouts from the poop pile are exceedingly rare.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-07-2018, 05:36 PM:

The other bad trend in trailers is the lightning-fast pace of the cuts. You can't even begin to take a scene in before it's off to the next scene. Last time I went to CinemaCon, the trailers were pretty much a blur by the second day, so I developed a little game of counting the seconds before a cut. It was very rare to get to more than 2 seconds.

On the subject of trailers spoiling the movie, when the remake of "Carrie" came out a few years ago, I was irritated because I thought the trailer gave away too many of the movie's surprises. So I looked at the trailer from the original movie in 1976, and it pretty much had all the same spoilers in it, so maybe things haven't changed all that much.

Some of my favorite trailers:

"Oh God!" - It was just George Burns' voice over a blank screen. "Hello, it's me, God. Yeah, God! I decided to come down and make a movie."

"Twister" mentioned by Bobby - it was about 85% black screen. I don't like to play the trailers loud but that one was really effective if played loud.

"Independence Day" - For this one I put a cue on the film to make the lights go to "dark" when the alien ship first arrived on the scene. It was really effective. Too bad I hated the actual movie. (Well the last third of it, at least.)

"Star Wars - A New Hope" from the late '90s reissue. It started off showing a small TV in the middle of the screen, with James Earl Jones narrating, "For an entire generation, people have experienced Star Wars this way...on the TV screen. But if you've only seen it this way, you haven't seen it at all." Then the Millenium Falcon flew out of the TV and filled the screen, with sound exploding into all the surrounds.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 02-07-2018, 07:17 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
the typical 20-30min pre show program at these levels will annoy the largest part of typical audiences.

In ALL of the NYC theaters I attend, the pre-show levels are actually quite low. You can easily have a conversation over them. The trailers are another matter.

I've got to remember to take the SPL meter with me next time I see a movie.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-07-2018, 08:15 PM:

I always play our pre-show at 3.3, unless we have a largish crowd then I turn it up a little but never over 3.6. Then up to 3.8 for the trailers and then up to whatever we're playing this week's feature at.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-08-2018, 02:34 AM:

It just seams that in this marvelous digital age where servers control everything from house light levels to complex play lists, to be STILL gnashing our teeth and rending our garments over this issue and wondering what can be done about variations in audio levels between highly compressed, blaring trailers and feature audio levels seems absurd. How difficult can it be to add audio level cues in the playlist it to control overly loud trailers?

Before all this automation, it actually was difficult to tame trailers since the producers were purposefully ramping up levels and if you remember, there was a serious push to get sound mixers to voluntarily bring their trailer mixes back to normal reference levels. Of course that was a flop because no one could resist the desire to make their trailer "pop" and be noticed above everything else -- it was like telling ad agencies to not make their ads stand out -- never happened.

Now we have the way to do it no matter how a trailer or any other program material is authored -- the exhibitor just needs to put cues in the playlist to have the master volume adjusted to whatever is needed to keep preshow trailers at the same apparent level as the feature. Even before automation I believe it was Smart that had a device (was it called the AfterBurner?...sorry if memory fails) but it basically was a compressor to level the audio playing field -- exhibitions attempting to control audio levels at the theatre even if the ad agencies weren't going to do it themselves on their end. Now the exhibitor has the digital tool to do it fairly effortlessly.

With today's automation, an exhibitor can go thru the playlist at his/her preview/verification run, adjust the volume of all the junk before the feature...adjust each item to a reasonable comfort levels and in line to match the feature and then simply plug those level values as volume change cues. Why is this still an issue, 30 years after everyone agreed that it was an issue?! In 2018, is the industry actually saying it can't figure out a way to keep playback levels in cinemas at a comfortable level...we don't have the technology to adjust playback volume levels automatically? Really? I bet Alexa could do it without batting a digital eyelash.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-08-2018, 05:47 PM:

The word isn't "can't" -- the word is "won't."

Showmanship is low on the priority list in these big mega complexes, unfortunately. They're too busy coming up with another dozen concession combos or whatever.

Posted by Mark Strube (Member # 4190) on 02-08-2018, 07:44 PM:

At the three independent theaters that I run projection for, we're using exclusively JSD-100's, which easily gives complete control over volume level through simple cues in the playlist. It's not uncommon for me to have 5 trailers and 2-3 different volume levels throughout to compensate for varying levels. I generally run the feature at 0.5 - 0.7 louder than the trailers to account for the increased dynamic range and to bring dialogue to a good level.

I disagree that "movies are way too loud." In my area at least, the majority of screenings that I attend at multiplexes seem to have the volume adjusted for whoever complained last, and then the fader knob collects dust until the next complaint. The local "imax" would be the only consistent exception to this problem.

I also agree that many screenings that sound "too loud" are likely a result of a poor EQ and/or room.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-14-2018, 08:49 PM:

All I can tell you is---and this actually happened to me: Die hard With a Vengeance: A 12 year old boy came out and said: "Wow! Is that LOUD!!" We backed down to 6.25. (New Dolby Digital install with all great equipment in 1015 seat theatre.)

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 02-17-2018, 12:30 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
The word isn't "can't" -- the word is "won't."

Showmanship is low on the priority list in these big mega complexes, unfortunately. They're too busy coming up with another dozen concession combos or whatever.

I don't think it's just that. I think it's that they think these loud levels ARE "showmanship". Or that they don't want projectionists (when they have them) making subjective decisions about what's too loud, which is probably a good idea. And there is a portion of the audience who likes it that way (not me). But I do think they should be setting levels differently for full and empty houses.

(I remember many decades ago, I projected a 16mm print of "The French Connection" to a private group. One member of the group was a highly political guy (he's got a portion of a street named after him with an honorary name) who thought he was in charge of everything. He kept on asking me to lower the volume in loud scenes which I, of course, refused. He headed for the projector and was going to change the level himself and I had to warn him that if he touched it, I'd shut the show down.)

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 02-17-2018, 11:24 PM:

I agree movies are not too loud but previews can be silly loud. I have grown to absolutely hate trailers. Like Bobby said I avoid them if its a movie im excited to see. They outright spoil the movie.

My all time favorite trailer is the Star Wars A New Hope trailer Mike talked about with the tv in the beginning then the Falcon explodes out of it to great effect.

Posted by Thomas Pitt (Member # 4322) on 02-19-2018, 03:54 PM:

For me, the volume seems to vary between theatres and also depending on where I sit. With this 'assigned seating' system they all have today you can't just move around until you find a sweet spot any more. I try to avoid going to theatres that play movies too loud and always remember to bring my earplugs!

One of the theatres I frequent has 'box' seating (not to be confused with D-BOX) - a small walled-off area at the back of the auditorium with soundproof glass in the front, and its own sound system. It's designed so that private groups can book in and order food and drink during the movie using an internal telephone. The box also has a DTS volume control that allows the patrons to choose a volume level for the speakers in there - I like to have it as low as it'll go so I don't get blasted!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-19-2018, 06:28 PM:

quote:
Die hard With a Vengeance: A 12 year old boy came out and said: "Wow! Is that LOUD!!"

If he was smiling you should have let it be! [Smile]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-24-2018, 08:01 PM:

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-26-2018, 06:43 AM:

So, what happened there? The little LED dot burned out? [Razz]

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 02-26-2018, 07:04 AM:

Sounds like "Spinal Tap"!

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 02-26-2018, 10:22 AM:

NO! His processor goes to "11"! [beer]

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 02-26-2018, 11:08 AM:

Ah, the infamous CP511? [Razz]

Posted by Terry Monohan (Member # 8285) on 03-08-2018, 09:49 PM:

Most movie theatres in San Francisco CA have a good level of even sound both from the stage speakers and surrounds. The only movie cinema that is bad is the SF Castro Theatre. The surrounds are way old and were small box types from the old Blumenfield Alhambra Theatre days. Volume so low on the surrounds that you hardly hear them DCP or Dolby film. Forget the split surround effect It is barely heard. At least a few weeks ago they did replace the sub woofers back stage with new ones as one of the old sub speakers was not even working. Stage base sounds better now. The main stage sound is at a good volume but the center Castro stage speaker lacks a good crisp voice treble sound. I need to tell them that the fairly new AMC Valco Mall Cupertino Theatres nearby are closing in a few weeks. A good chance for them to pick up some better surround speakers then the ones that are on the walls now and maybe get some larger good used amps also. AMC will be glad to get some cash for them and we can finally hear surround volume at the Castro in SF that the sound directors intended.

Posted by Terry Monohan (Member # 8285) on 03-12-2018, 01:14 PM:

Good news at the Castro Theatre SF. After all my complaining about the surround speaker level, calling the owner Don and my friends at Dolby in SF plus two of the projection staff the volume in the surround speakers has been turned up a little. We visited the Castro last Friday with friends that have not seen 'The Shape Of Water' and wow the sound around the audience speakers was much better, even heard split surround. Now let's hope they can buy some new surround speakers some day to bring out treble and bass tones. Thank you Castro Theatre. Got a nice e mail from my tech friend Mark at Drafthouse Cinemas. He tells me when they get a new movie at Drafthouse the projectionist staff will watch the new film in parts to adjust the sound level for that movies level volume. They don't just play It and think the auto adjustment align setting will be ok for each movie they play for the stage and surround speakers. I am sure your average movie multiplex chain could care less about doing this with each new movie they run only If someone complains.