Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: SF Strange: Century 9; AMC Metreon playing Day & Date

This is topic SF Strange: Century 9; AMC Metreon playing Day & Date in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=003095

Posted by Mike Croaro (Member # 3123) on 03-17-2018, 06:03 PM:

Hello Everyone,

Just noticed that the Century 9 SF and AMC Metreon (2 theatres accross the street from one another) are playing Day and Date.

I do not recall them ever doing this. Each had clearance over the other. What Gives? Has something changed in Downtown San Francisco? New trend?

Tomb Raider, 7 Days in Entebbe, Red Sparrow, Annilation & Love Simon.

Mike

Posted by Alexandre Pereira (Member # 9295) on 03-17-2018, 07:54 PM:

The US DOJ started investigating the studios for anti-trust behaviour a few years back - FOX was the first to bail on clearances under threat of possible charges. Now if we could only make Canada great again and take on the corporatocracy of CP. Both the liberals and pc have protected and encouraged the CP 90% monopoly through the Orwellian name Competition Board.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-17-2018, 08:03 PM:

quote: Mike Croaro
Just noticed that the Century 9 SF and AMC Metreon (2 theatres accross the street from one another) are playing Day and Date.

I do not recall them ever doing this. Each had clearance over the other. What Gives? Has something changed in Downtown San Francisco? New trend?

The same thing has been going on here in my little town. The old former Carmike 8 theater and its newer Patriot 13 replacement are about 1.25 miles apart from each other via local streets. When Carmike was running both theaters the old 8-plex had been demoted to 2nd run/bargain status. Not long after AMC took over both theaters (and sold the 12-plex it had in Central Mall downtown) it started running movies 1st run at the old 8-plex. Then it began playing some of the same movies playing at the new 13-plex. What's even more odd is the ticket price at the older theater is significantly less than that of the newer 13 screen theater. The old 8-plex has decent sound systems and projectors; its 2 largest screens were once THX-certified. It's a real head scratcher.

The only way I can make sense of the situation is that 2nd run/bargain engagements are effectively a dead thing. There's no point to them anymore. Not with these extremely short theatrical windows. The movies play in 1st run for maybe a month at best and then they're done. They show up available to buy via "HD Digital" download within 8 weeks of the theatrical debut. Then the movie is out on Blu-ray maybe a month later. And by that time the ADHD general public has already forgotten about the damned thing and moved on to some other short term social media sensation. Our nation has the attention span of a fucking hummingbird.

quote: Alexandre Pereira
Now if we could only make Canada great again and take on the corporatocracy of CP. Both the liberals and pc have protected and encouraged the CP 90% monopoly through the Orwellian name Competition Board.

You do realize the discussion of politics is expressly forbidden on this forum, right? Especially now under current circumstances. Cool that shit already. Enough with the bitching about "liberals" or whatever. Take that bile to another forum. Another tip: take a break from cable news. The whole damned continent needs to do that. It might cut our rate of heart attack and stroke down quite a bit.

Posted by Alexandre Pereira (Member # 9295) on 03-17-2018, 08:27 PM:

"You do realize the discussion of politics is expressly forbidden on this forum, right? Especially now under current circumstances. Cool that shit already. Enough with the bitching about "liberals" or whatever. Take that bile to another forum. Another tip: take a break from cable news. The whole damned continent needs to do that. It might cut our rate of heart attack and stroke down quite a bit."

Sorry it took me so long to respond but I had to go help clean the theatre. How about you take your pontification (which you have done loads) and shove it right up your bile?

I have been sitting running the Kingsway Theatre - blocked in by CP for ten years. Perhaps that is just too political for film-tech forums which I thought was about everything related to - well you know movie theatres. So much for open discussion.

ps - Cable news? What is that?

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 03-18-2018, 02:57 AM:

Fox and Universal will allow all theaters to book their movies in a competitive zone. Paramount and Lionsgate will allow the bigger movies to play in all, but their smaller releases are allocated. (Makes sense as Annilation does not really need to be playing on 4 screens in Lubbock.) Disney, Sony and Warner Bros allocates, though we all got Spiderman last summer. I guess it depends which way the wind blows...
People have asked me if Fox will allocate again when Disney takes control. I honestly don't know. Maybe? Maybe not? Disney doesn't have control yet. We will find out when they do get control.
And who is to say the companies won't resort to allocating in certain markets again? Our competitor has IMAX. Public perception of that format makes it difficult to compete with. Their other auditoriums have recliners. When we all get the same movie, we often get their overflow...which is a blessing.
But...when we get a movie they don't have, we will do decent business with it. We rocked with Jumanji and we rocked with the religious themed I Can Only Imagine.
Each market is different. Each country is different. There is an abundance of "unfair and unjust" everywhere. We just have to make do and just do the best we can.

Posted by Alexandre Pereira (Member # 9295) on 03-18-2018, 10:48 AM:

I was told this was the case in the US by one of the studio distributors here in Toronto. However, in Canada CP continues to demand all product - including major release films and all studios comply. The competition board in Canada is completely useless - effectively they act as gatekeepers for CP - this is clearly a directive coming from the Federal Government. Only in Quebec - was the monopoly successfully challenged by Cinema Guzzo and that happen through a Quebec superior court action.
As for Disney in the US it is only a matter of time before either their board goes up on charges or they stop their non-competitive practices like the other studios.

Posted by Mike Croaro (Member # 3123) on 03-18-2018, 11:30 AM:

I was aware that theatres were playing Day & date on certain features. I thought there was an exception though for theatres in very close proximity to one another, such as these two which are across the street from each other.

Maybe it's been this way for a while (at these two) and I never noticed?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-19-2018, 11:25 AM:

I have been watching the movie booking and show time listings for our two local AMC/former Carmike locations since my girlfriend and I visit both places most often. I haven't been able to figure out a pattern yet as to which movie studios will or will not allow both theaters to play the same movie. But I have noticed the theaters have fewer evening show times during the week; often there is no late show in the 9:00-10:00 time range.

quote: Alexandre Pereira
Sorry it took me so long to respond but I had to go help clean the theatre. How about you take your pontification (which you have done loads) and shove it right up your bile?

I don't make/enforce the forum rules. But I have participated in this forum long enough to see a number of people get banned when they pushed their luck too far. "So much for open discussion" -this is not an "open" forum. It is a moderated, privately owned forum. Discussion of religion and politics is not allowed (Rule #3) and personal attacks are also not allowed (Rule #1). Certain kinds of attacks can result in an immediate ban. Click the "faq & rules" link at the top for more info.

quote: Alexandre Pereira
ps - Cable news? What is that?

Anger pornography, that's what. It's entertainment for people who love getting their chains yanked.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 03-19-2018, 01:27 PM:

AMC, owning both locations, probably can eliminate that late round of shows on the "school nights" (Sunday through Thursday) without the film companies threatening to "take their movies to the competitor". A lot of small market theaters do that. My building has been dead enough, in some instances, to be able to open later in the afternoon and close earlier but this is not an option we have in this market. College students will take in the later movies. I noticed as of late the Plainview Cinema 6 has early afternoon showings on the week days (which I drove the 100 miles round trip to partake in twice now) but still eliminate the 9 to 10 round.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-19-2018, 01:27 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
But I have noticed the theaters have fewer evening show times during the week; often there is no late show in the 9:00-10:00 time range.

For almost 40 years we've operated on essentially the same schedule: Two shows in Fri-Sat (unless the movie is too long to allow a late show at 9:30 or earlier), and one show the rest of the week. In the last year or so, we've had an increasing number of occasions where nobody came for the late show.

But we keep that show in the schedule...first, I feel like cutting shows is the first step down a slippery slope, and second, the two or three people (or occasionally, ONE person) who show up for those movies feel really pampered when they're the only ones in the building. Sometimes I ask if there's any trailers they're wanting to see.

I suppose one reason the late shows are dwindling is because of the length of the movies. Who wants to go see a 157 minute Marvel movie at 10:00 on a Sunday?

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 03-19-2018, 03:11 PM:

quote: Mike Croaro
Just noticed that the Century 9 SF and AMC Metreon (2 theatres accross the
street from one another) are playing Day and Date.

At the risk of being nit-picky, they're not exactly across the street from each other.
They are separated by at least a very long city block or maybe two, and, in fact,
are on different streets. (Metreon is on Mission St, Century 9 is on Market St.)
And both their main entrances face north, which would be geographically very
tricky if they were actually across from each other.

But I'll concede they are "damn close" to each other, & you raise an interesting
question about the 'day & date' thing.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-19-2018, 04:05 PM:

That reminds me a little of the situation in Manhattan. A movie could be playing at a theater in Times Square and also be playing maybe half a mile away at a cinema like the Ziegfeld at 6th Ave & 54th St or the Loews complex on 34th St a few blocks East. This was back in the late 80's when I observed the situation.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 03-19-2018, 05:56 PM:

The entrance to San Francisco Centre that is on Mission Street contains the elevators that take you directly to the theater lobby, so Century and Metreon are a half block apart. [beer]

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 03-20-2018, 09:47 AM:

Cinemark Layton, UT and the AMC Layton Hills 9 right behind it are both currently showing: Tomb Raider, A Wrinkle in Time, Black Panther, Love Simon, and Death Wish.

Posted by Mark Campbell (Member # 4411) on 03-20-2018, 04:20 PM:

In downtown Seattle the AMC Pacific Place 11 and the Regal Meridian 16, only a few blocks from each other, played The Last Jedi day and date. That is the only day and date Disney engagement I have noticed here. All the other studios with the exception of Warner and Sony (aside from Spider Man) seem to be doing day and date.

The Cinerama is the exception - it plays day and date with all downtown theaters and studios. Last Jedi played there as well as the AMC and Regal.

Back in my LA days in the 90's and 00's I remember the Irvine Edwards and AMC across the street from each other (52 screens!) played day and date for all studios with the exception of Sony if I remember correctly.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-20-2018, 04:27 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
But we keep that show in the schedule...first, I feel like cutting shows is the first step down a slippery slope, and second, the two or three people (or occasionally, ONE person) who show up for those movies feel really pampered when they're the only ones in the building. Sometimes I ask if there's any trailers they're wanting to see.

After years of an average of 3 people a show for our 9:00 shows, we dropped it a couple of years ago and added 5:00. On average it does way better than the 9:00 shows averaged, but it is hard to tell if it just takes people away from the 7:30 show.

Posted by Alexandre Pereira (Member # 9295) on 03-20-2018, 08:25 PM:

In Canada - not including Quebec - there is no comparable movie theatre/facility playing day and date with CP. In downtown Toronto Market Square Cinemas - opened in 1979 - a six plex with under 1000 seats is the ONLY cinema in all of the GTA that plays day and date with CP. The Carlton Cinemas - open 1979 - nine plex with under 1000 seats plays HALF first run. Having to clear the CP Varsity Cinemas but not clear the former Yonge AMC 24. All other cinemas(non CP) that play first run are out of a 5km driving exclusion zone. However, this rule is only applied with the consent of CP.
CP currently has 90% market share in Canada - having been allowed by the federal government to buy up all major competitors - distributors advised against this consolidation but both the federal liberal party and the pc party remained mute on the matter. As for the competition board in Canada - it is completely and totally useless - other than acting as gatekeepers for the exhibitor monopoly. I spent over an hour on a conference call with two of their investigators and they refused to even acknowledge the clear evidence that I provided showing that the Kingsway Theatre and the CP Queensway never played the same films - that evidence was of course the film grosses records with matching dates from rentrak.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 03-24-2018, 12:16 AM:

quote:
That reminds me a little of the situation in Manhattan. A movie could be playing at a theater in Times Square and also be playing maybe half a mile away at a cinema like the Ziegfeld at 6th Ave & 54th St or the Loews complex on 34th St a few blocks East. This was back in the late 80's when I observed the situation.
| IP: Logged

Originally, the Ziegfeld insisted on an exclusive, but I guess by the mid- to late-80's, the distributors wouldn't give them that anymore even though it had 1150 seats. I was always under the impression that they didn't get the original runs of the Star Wars films because they insisted on the exclusive, although they did get the original run of Close Encounters exclusively, IIRC.

In NYC, Times Square and the Ziegfeld location were/are considered completely different neighborhoods. Times Square was pretty seedy in the 80's and a lot of people who patronized the Ziegfeld wouldn't go to a Times Square theater.

But back in the 80's, those theaters could fill a lot of seats even during the week and it didn't matter if a film was playing in two nearby theaters. Today, it's a different story, especially weekdays and why the theaters are ripping out all the seats (although I personally think that's insane because anytime they sell out a show, they're leaving money on the table).

I don't think the Empire 25 has installed lounge seating as yet aside from the Dolby Prime screen (unless it's only on some screens), but the seat count has dropped from 4916 to about 3370. The Regal E-Walk (9) across the street has installed lounge seating and the count has dropped from 3276 to 1344.

The Loew's 84th Street 6 was 2980, then 2385. With lounge seating, it's now only 865.

The Chelsea Cinema 9, now owned by Cinepolis, was 2330 and is now 1507.

The Cinema 1, 2, 3 on the East Side was originally 1000 when it was only two screens, then it was 1035 with 3 screens and now with lounge seating, it's only 335.

A local 5-screener near me in Queens which plays a combo of mainstream and art films and was still showing 35mm up until about two years ago, was 860, but with lounge seating, it's only 272 seats. With one of the screens having just 36 seats, it sells out often and I've seen potential customers get really pissed off. (I don't blame them).

So with so few seats, nearby theaters can play the same films especially on weekends, not that there's that many theaters in NYC that are near each other anymore. Manhattan is down to 27 theaters and 205 screens. The entire city is now just 55 theaters and 432 screens.

Since July of 2012, we've lost 27.8% of the seats and we've lost 56% of the seats in just over 30 years.

Posted by Mike Croaro (Member # 3123) on 03-28-2018, 09:26 PM:

The Day & Date strangeness has now moved across town to the UA Stonestown (an older twin theatre) and the Century 20 Daly City (a multiplex that opened in 2002).

Neither theatre has EVER played Day & Date with each other (on arthouse product).

It will interesting as to how this will play out.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 03-29-2018, 08:42 AM:

I'll be interested to see what happens with day and date when iPic opens a location soon that is just across a mall perimeter road from the Regal Sawgrass 23 at the Sawgrass Mills mall in Sunrise, FL.

Ironically, the now defunct General Cinema passed on the opportunity to build the (originally 18 screen opened in 1991) location at Sawgrass Mills mall because they were afraid of somebody possibly opening a 4 screen location across the street and killing the business case for an 18 screen theatre because of allocation.

Cobb ended up as the original operator. The iPic is being built as part of the "Metropica" housing and retail development located between the mall perimeter road and a major road on the west side of the Mall.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-29-2018, 01:27 PM:

On page 1 of this thread I talked about the day and date strageness in Lawton, OK between the AMC Classic 8 (formerly Carmike 8) and the Patriot 13 theater. That's no longer an issue since AMC shut down the old 8-plex a couple weeks ago.

quote: Martin Brooks
In NYC, Times Square and the Ziegfeld location were/are considered completely different neighborhoods. Times Square was pretty seedy in the 80's and a lot of people who patronized the Ziegfeld wouldn't go to a Times Square theater.

I didn't think Times Square itself was all that bad. I think it was down to just one or two porn theaters in the late 80's. IIRC things got more seedy a block west over on 8th Avenue. In the late 80's Times Square had the Loews Astor Plaza, which had even more seats than the Ziegfeld. The Criterion Center, Guild Embassy and National Twin also showed quite a few movies in 70mm.

quote: Martin Brooks
But back in the 80's, those theaters could fill a lot of seats even during the week and it didn't matter if a film was playing in two nearby theaters. Today, it's a different story, especially weekdays and why the theaters are ripping out all the seats (although I personally think that's insane because anytime they sell out a show, they're leaving money on the table).

Yeah, I remember standing in line for what seemed like at least 2-3 hours to watch Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade at the Astor Plaza. Manhattan had a decent number of single and twin screen theaters; a few with 4-6 screens and hardly any with more screens than that back then. Any well-anticipated movie could generate long lines. I even remember a long line for Goodfellas. Auditorium capacity was quite a bit better back then.

Recliner seats have a certain novelty to them. Unfortunately they make me think of a home viewing experience more. And then when the seating capacity in some of these rooms is dropped down to under 100 it really messes with the sense of scale one expects from the movie-going experience.

quote: Martin Brooks
So with so few seats, nearby theaters can play the same films especially on weekends, not that there's that many theaters in NYC that are near each other anymore. Manhattan is down to 27 theaters and 205 screens. The entire city is now just 55 theaters and 432 screens.

That's pretty sad. It's another side effect of the speculative feeding frenzy going on with New York City real estate. I really feel like it's in a serious "bubble economy" zone. Movie theaters are one of those quality of life leisure/entertainment things accessible to people in most income classes. The cost of housing has become so ridiculous there that I wonder how all the service sector businesses with lower wage jobs can keep their positions properly staffed. A big part of NYC's growing homeless population are homeless people who have jobs. Neighborhoods I usually tried to avoid (Harlem, Brownsville, Bed-Stuy) have been mostly gentrified in recent years. Where did all the lower income people that used to live there move? Did they leave the entire region? Overall I don't think NYC is in a sustainable situation. That speculative bubble being driven by foreign investors, hedge funds, etc could pop at any time.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 03-30-2018, 04:13 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
That speculative bubble being driven by foreign investors, hedge funds, etc could pop at any time.

Don't forget the banks writing the loans on the real estate which allow the prices to keep skyrocketing. If it was required that a mortgage could not be approved if the monthly payments exceed 30% of gross household income then most people wouldn't be able to afford the ridiculously high prices.

The prices would have to come down to match what the market could afford. The way it works now is people end up "buying" real estate that is beyond their means. This causes the prices to rise everywhere.

The crazy increases in the cost of housing in every "desirable" location is IMO the biggest issue impacting American's quality of life. For a middle class person to get reasonably priced housing they either have to be in a bad neighborhood or a nice neighborhood 50+ miles from where they work.

Posted by Mark Campbell (Member # 4411) on 03-30-2018, 04:18 PM:

Looks like WB is doing Day/Date with Ready Player One. Think this will be a one off?

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 03-30-2018, 08:32 PM:

I think Rampage will be day and date, too.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-30-2018, 10:57 PM:

quote: Lyle Romer
The crazy increases in the cost of housing in every "desirable" location is IMO the biggest issue impacting American's quality of life. For a middle class person to get reasonably priced housing they either have to be in a bad neighborhood or a nice neighborhood 50+ miles from where they work.

Or they can do like a growing number of younger adults: share a cramped living space in a "desirable" location with 2 or more roommates. That's another factor that's fueling this speculative trend. Lots of smaller cities and towns are losing population. Kids leave home for college (or just leave) and don't come back. There are plenty of obvious reasons for that. Unless these young adults score great paying jobs in the big city they'll make sacrifices, like trading privacy and independence for roommates. If they stay in that situation they won't be getting married or having kids until significantly later in life, if they ever do that at all. America is lining up all the conditions needed to usher in a Japanese style baby bust. And that would be something which would eventually correct the excesses taking place in real estate.

The pricing trend on housing (among other things) cannot be good for movie theaters in the long term. A trip to the cinema is a purely discretionary purchase. If living costs are too high for someone that person will cut back on all sorts of things. The cost of living in my town is relatively low, but this isn't one of those "desirable" locations. Still, it's not difficult for someone with a modest income here to afford eating out and visiting the cinema on a fairly regular basis.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 04-05-2018, 12:34 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
A big part of NYC's growing homeless population are homeless people who have jobs. Neighborhoods I usually tried to avoid (Harlem, Brownsville, Bed-Stuy) have been mostly gentrified in recent years. Where did all the lower income people that used to live there move? Did they leave the entire region? Overall I don't think NYC is in a sustainable situation. That speculative bubble being driven by foreign investors, hedge funds, etc could pop at any time.

It hasn't happened yet, but I fear NYC is going to have massive population losses in the future because it's become unaffordable for the working- and middle-classes unless they're already in a place that they own or with a lease with restricted increases. NYC is still gaining population which is at a peak. It's just been estimated at 8.623 million as of December, 2017. It was 8.538 million in July of 2016 and 8.175 million in 2010.

But between 1950 and 1960 when many middle class people moved to suburbs, the city lost over 100,000 people and between 1970 and 1980 it lost 10% of the population: a net reduction of 823,000 people. It took 20 years to get back to that population level.

That could well happen again. While crime is at a record low and the city is relatively clean compared to the past, housing prices are absurd, the subways are failing and much of what made NYC unique is being destroyed by the commercial real estate industry whose greed makes it impossible for independent businesses to afford the rent and as a result, NYC is now filled with national chains and is largely the same as everywhere else. Frankly, I don't understand why tourists spend the money to be here since they largely eat and shop in the same chains they have at home.

While we've lost a lot of theaters, there are a few new theaters coming: Regal is building the Market Line 14 in a mixed-use new building on the Lower East Side; Flushing, Queens is getting a new 7-screener built by a company from Shanghai, also as part of a mixed-use development and Nitehawk is soon reopening the Brooklyn Sanders/Pavillion as the Prospect Park 7.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-05-2018, 02:27 PM:

quote: Martin Brooks
It hasn't happened yet, but I fear NYC is going to have massive population losses in the future because it's become unaffordable for the working- and middle-classes unless they're already in a place that they own or with a lease with restricted increases.

People who don't live in the NYC area are probably not aware of all the fraud and scams that have been going on in recent years to force low and middle income people out of rent controlled properties. So much speculative investment money has been pouring into former "combat zone" neighborhoods. Land lords and property owners have been brazen about their tactics at removing undesirable tenants to get on that gravy train. Elderly renters have been prone to abuse; most pay their bills the old fashioned way, by mailing a check. Well, the land lords just don't cash the checks. Then they evict the rent-controlled tenants due to lack of payment. When enough lower income tenants are evicted they can sell the property. There are loop holes that will remove an apartment building from rent control if enough renovations take place and a high enough percentage of tenants are paying above a certain level of rent.

The gentrification process has led to a surprising backlash in a few large American cities. Young, white millennials (many of them with liberal tendencies) mostly meant well by moving into neighborhoods that white Gen-X people like me avoided. The trouble is all sorts of businesses designed to cater to their white, hipster sensibilities followed, pressuring or snuffing out the original ethnic culture of these neighborhoods. Living costs shot up. Young white tenants were only too happy to be stupid with their money and they paid these increasing prices while the neighborhood's long time residents couldn't keep up with the cost inflation. So now there are protests erupting in some cities and even vandalism of coffee shops, vintage clothing stores and yoga studios. Long time residents of these neighborhoods are being forced out and they're pretty damned pissed about it. These white millennials have been caught off guard, thinking black anger was reserved for white "rednecks" in "fly-over country."

Of course, my big question is: where the hell are these people going to go?

Big metros in Texas are adding residents far faster than New York City. At the same time living costs are starting to get pretty ridiculous in places like Austin and a growing number of zones in sprawling Dallas-Fort Worth. Transplants from New York City looking for more affordable city life in Houston might find themselves struggling the same way in a different place.

Oklahoma's living costs are among the most affordable in the nation. And that might be just fine for a middle-aged or retired couple escaping the high cost coasts. A young couple looking to start a family would still avoid this state for what has happened to its public school systems. A decade of mis-management has Oklahoma crumbling. There are other low cost of living states in the same situation. Our teachers are currently on strike (and I don't blame them for it either). The cost of living and doing business is creeping up in Oklahoma via products being shipped in from out of state (food, office supplies, building materials, etc). If I want to see Ready Player One in "IMAX-3D" at our local theater, I'll have to pay $18.30 per ticket. That's pretty expensive when you consider where average Oklahoma wages are running versus wages in the coastal big cities.

So that's where we now have a Catch-22 situation for many young adults. The situation is a little easier if a young adult doesn't care about getting married and having children. Who cares how bad a local school district is operating if you don't have any kids going to school in it? If having a family is an important goal the choices and situations get far more difficult. Any city or town worth a damn ought to care about having a good school system though; businesses will not be able to attract or retain a good work force of young adults without it.

I've heard people say "the market will correct itself." Well, I don't know about that. Many of us remember the real estate bubble last decade and what that did to the world economy. And then we have examples like Japan where long term extreme living costs have absolutely routed the nation's population growth. The United States has factors like its absurd, price-gouging health care system and plenty of other sectors that bend parents over the barrel. I think "the market" has proved it will eat its own seed corn for short term gain.

Cities like New York City and San Francisco could be on the verge is big population losses. However, I think there is a strong potential for big population losses to happen everywhere in this country over the long term. We've already had a stagnant native-born population growth picture since the early 1970's. All net gains have come via immigration; we all know what's happening there lately.

Posted by Alexandre Pereira (Member # 9295) on 04-05-2018, 11:37 PM:

Speaking of politics you have just described the neo-liberal globalist oligarchial polices. Depopulation is the main goal - look at the west - birth rates have collapsed while corporate control has exponentially increased.
Really it is the end days of capitalism leading to a full on feudal planet. The communists predicted this and now even the the reactionary right wing is in agreement. That is why the casino pimp Trump won.
When cities become gentrified it is at the cost of de-industrialization, de-populate and de-value of the working class. Money is nothing more than fiat funds - that is why major urban centres are now filled with financal boutiques for the weathly and cheque cashing and loans for the poor.
Toronto is no different - endless condos for the carpet baggers from around the world to clean their money. All the while what is left of the locals flock to the transnationals like starbucks and walmart as small business races to the bottom.
As western society becomes ever more stratified only an upper management vassal class will be required to meet the needs of the oligarchy. AI is coming and it will not be good. The rest of us are completely expandable.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-06-2018, 01:08 AM:

This is economics, not politics. Greed transcends all political leanings. Greed is not confined to "neo-liberal" types. If you're a human being with a pulse you're prone to being a greedy douche. Some human beings have no qualms about making the lives of others miserable in return for their own selfish gain. That trait of human behavior has spanned all political ideologies. It's just basic human behavior.

Oligarchies will take and take, but "depopulation" never is a conscious, deliberate main goal. Such a thing makes absolutely zero sense in terms of economic mathematics. You can't do business without a customer base. And even in a purely socialist environment the "business" of making sure the water keeps running and the lights stay on depends on having a steady supply of new people to do that work. Here in the US you can add the issues of racism and xenophobia. If us white folks can't afford to breed it may create the opportunity for other races to eliminate us. But that doesn't seem to be on the radar scopes of current "leaders" people here in flyover country idolize. If the concept of the "American Family" is so important then why are we pricing it out of reach for a growing number of American born citizens? The whole ideology/political thing is just a smoke screen distraction. It is meant to misdirect people from the actual economic greed taking place -greed that, if unchecked, will ultimately bankrupt our nation.

This problem is all about a lack of balance. Increase profit at all costs. One ever smaller group of people is gouging income from everyone else. Meanwhile it's a rat race to be among that few people who have an increasing amount of the society's wealth. Without balance in the economy people have a harder time doing things for leisure, like being able to see a movie at a movie theater.

In the end a crash of population growth will be accidental, not deliberate. And to the powers that be the crash will be mostly unpredicted. Some will be genuinely caught off guard and surprised. But I think others see the potential coming and are just milking whatever they can out of the system while the getting is good.