Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: ADA service dogs

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Posted by Nathan McLaughlin (Member # 10057) on 03-31-2018, 11:49 PM:

Hello everyone
Tonight we had a couple come in to check out the theater to see if their dog would be comfortable in the theater as we talked they said they would be happy to show us the ADA rules now the dog had a unpleasant Oder and our kids are highly allergic to dogs cats and others but as we talked they said they trained ADA dogs
My question is if they train dogs and don't need them themselves what are the rules
What I would like to know is what are my kids rights they seem to be second

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 04-01-2018, 12:00 AM:

I have read that airlines have huge problems with people bringing dogs, cats and even peacocks on flights so a stinky dog is probably just one more thing.

But I don't see how you could be required to admit a dog for "training"; the person with the dog doesn't require it so I don't think you could be forced to admit it.

If someone shows up with a dog and says that they require it themselves then I don't think you can refuse to admit it in that case.

Have any of you fine folks had people show up at the theatre with dogs (cats, rats...) and demand admittance for their animal?

Thankfully I haven't encountered that here, so far at least.

The articles I've read about this state that the problem starts from the fact that there is no official certification for service animals; anyone can say that Fluffy or Fido is a service animal and nobody can override that.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-01-2018, 04:51 AM:

I don't know what the rules are but it seems to me that, if the dog smells, it would be an issue that a person who is training a service dog should know about.

The way I see it, there are three main things that most people would worry about regarding whether they dogs should be allowed in certain public places:

1) The dog pees or poops when/where it shouldn't.
2) Bag behavior. (Barking, biting, acting up, etc.)
3) Allergies, smells and general cleanliness.

The first two items are things that you can train a dog to do or not to do but the third is a wild card. It is a natural characteristic of dogs and other animals. It's also the one thing that I can think of which would be a "show stopper."

So, if that person really was a dog trainer, smell is something that they should be worried about. If the dog really did smell bad, a real trainer shouldn't get bent out of shape about it, either. It's something that they SHOULD be told about.

If I was in such a situation, I would have no problem with telling the person, "Okay this time but that dog smells bad." I would let them in that time but, if they come back and the dog still smells, I would turn them away.

Like I said, I don't know the law but I bet that there is a provision that gives business owners the right to turn away badly behaved or smelly dogs provided reasonable notice is given. If there isn't, there should be!

When I was a kid, my father bred and trained hunting dogs. These were outdoor dogs and, yes, they did occasionally get smelly but, at the same time, my father would never let a dog get so smelly that people would complain.

I love dogs and cats and all other kinds of animals but I would never let a dog get "that bad."

If on the off-chance that one of my animals started to smell bad in a public place, I'd want to know about it.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-01-2018, 06:52 AM:

This brings up a very interesting situation. Is the person's ADA exercise of non-discrimination higher than an allergic person's right to breathe? Airlines won't serve peanuts if even one person on that flight says they have a peanut allergy. Every food product has to have a warning label if it was even remotely associated with a peanut.

I would think a RIGHT to breathe trumps an "act of congress" (aka law) against discrimination. In a sense, the person with the dog that causes an allergic reaction is discriminating against the person with the allergy.

I did a quick google search and it came up in an airline discussion and the response was:

quote:
Allergies and fear of dogs are not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people using service animals. When a person who is allergic to dog dander and a person who uses a service animal must spend time in the same room or facility — such as an airport lounge or a hotel lobby, for example — they both should be accommodated by assigning them to different locations within the room or different rooms in the facility, if it is at all possible.

Since I don't have the time to research this further, I'll let it go at that. Most likely the theatre should "separate" the two (because separate but equal proved such a good idea), which will be interesting in this era of assigned seats.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-01-2018, 07:16 AM:

My late, ex, father-in-law was one of your typical “stinky, old men.” He was 90 years old when he passed away.

When we visited him he always liked to take us out to Ponderosa for lunch. We were often embarrassed to take him anywhere because he was so stinky. One time when we’re at the restaurant he smelled so bad that other customers complained. It was so bad that even I couldn’t eat!

Finally, the manager came over and told my father-in-law to take a bath or else he wouldn’t be allowed to come back! Needless to say, that was the last time we ever went to that restaurant.

It seems to me that, if a business can tell a customer to go away because of bad body odor that they should also be allowed to tell a dog owner, service animal or not, that they can’t come in if the dog smells bad.

What goes for people should also go for dogs, handicapped,or not.

Right?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-01-2018, 09:19 AM:

Along that line though, how long until businesses refuse service to those people who dump an entire bottle of cologne or perfume on themselves?

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 04-01-2018, 11:29 AM:

I was just discussing this with my wife last night after posting my earlier comment.

What happens if someone shows up with a dog that's really disruptive, barking at the screen or stinking up the room?

I wonder if we are required to give refunds to everyone else who came to the show (and now can't watch it) so the fellow with the dog can watch the movie?

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 04-01-2018, 12:07 PM:

Nope. You aren't required to be anybody's training ground. Furthermore, this whole thing doesn't affect you until the dog accompanies the person it is providing the service for (see Q6 below).

On the other hand, you didn't make it clear whether they were bringing in their personal service dog or if it was a trainee. That might have made a difference, depending on how they presented the animal.

I don't see anything that applies to a dog's smell. As to allergies, you might have to move to a different part of the auditorium. I did see where a dog could be excluded from areas that were restricted to people with allergies. Don't know how you'd make that work in an auditorium.

The problem with ADA is that is uses the word "generally" a lot. Seems that lets them off the hook and makes for good lawyer fodder.

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

Frequently Asked Questions about Service Animals and the ADA

Many people with disabilities use a service animal in order to fully participate in everyday life. Dogs can be trained to perform many important tasks to assist people with disabilities, such as providing stability for a person who has difficulty walking, picking up items for a person who uses a wheelchair, preventing a child with autism from wandering away, or alerting a person who has hearing loss when someone is approaching from behind.

The Department of Justice continues to receive many questions about how the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) applies to service animals. The ADA requires State and local government agencies, businesses, and non-profit organizations (covered entities) that provide goods or services to the public to make "reasonable modifications" in their policies, practices, or procedures when necessary to accommodate people with disabilities. The service animal rules fall under this general principle. Accordingly, entities that have a "no pets" policy generally must modify the policy to allow service animals into their facilities. This publication provides guidance on the ADA's service animal provisions and should be read in conjunction with the publication ADA Revised Requirements: Service Animals.

Definition | General Rules | Certification and Registration
Breeds | Exclusion of Service Animals | Miscellaneous | Resources
DEFINITION OF A SERVICE ANIMAL
Q1. What is a service animal?

A. Under the ADA, a service animal is defined as a dog that has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for an individual with a disability. The task(s) performed by the dog must be directly related to the person's disability.
Q2. What does "do work or perform tasks" mean?

A. The dog must be trained to take a specific action when needed to assist the person with a disability. For example, a person with diabetes may have a dog that is trained to alert him when his blood sugar reaches high or low levels. A person with depression may have a dog that is trained to remind her to take her medication. Or, a person who has epilepsy may have a dog that is trained to detect the onset of a seizure and then help the person remain safe during the seizure.
Q3. Are emotional support, therapy, comfort, or companion animals considered service animals under the ADA?

A. No. These terms are used to describe animals that provide comfort just by being with a person. Because they have not been trained to perform a specific job or task, they do not qualify as service animals under the ADA. However, some State or local governments have laws that allow people to take emotional support animals into public places. You may check with your State and local government agencies to find out about these laws.
Q4. If someone's dog calms them when having an anxiety attack, does this qualify it as a service animal?

A. It depends. The ADA makes a distinction between psychiatric service animals and emotional support animals. If the dog has been trained to sense that an anxiety attack is about to happen and take a specific action to help avoid the attack or lessen its impact, that would qualify as a service animal. However, if the dog's mere presence provides comfort, that would not be considered a service animal under the ADA.
Q5. Does the ADA require service animals to be professionally trained?

A. No. People with disabilities have the right to train the dog themselves and are not required to use a professional service dog training program.
Q6. Are service-animals-in-training considered service animals under the ADA?

A. No. Under the ADA, the dog must already be trained before it can be taken into public places. However, some State or local laws cover animals that are still in training.
GENERAL RULES
Q7. What questions can a covered entity's employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?

A. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.
Q8. Do service animals have to wear a vest or patch or special harness identifying them as service animals?

A. No. The ADA does not require service animals to wear a vest, ID tag, or specific harness.
Q9. Who is responsible for the care and supervision of a service animal?

A. The handler is responsible for caring for and supervising the service animal, which includes toileting, feeding, and grooming and veterinary care. Covered entities are not obligated to supervise or otherwise care for a service animal.
Q10. Can a person bring a service animal with them as they go through a salad bar or other self-service food lines?

A. Yes. Service animals must be allowed to accompany their handlers to and through self-service food lines. Similarly, service animals may not be prohibited from communal food preparation areas, such as are commonly found in shelters or dormitories.
Q11. Can hotels assign designated rooms for guests with service animals, out of consideration for other guests?

A. No. A guest with a disability who uses a service animal must be provided the same opportunity to reserve any available room at the hotel as other guests without disabilities. They may not be restricted to "pet-friendly" rooms.
Q12. Can hotels charge a cleaning fee for guests who have service animals?

No. Hotels are not permitted to charge guests for cleaning the hair or dander shed by a service animal. However, if a guest's service animal causes damages to a guest room, a hotel is permitted to charge the same fee for damages as charged to other guests.
Q13. Can people bring more than one service animal into a public place?

A. Generally, yes. Some people with disabilities may use more than one service animal to perform different tasks. For example, a person who has a visual disability and a seizure disorder may use one service animal to assist with way-finding and another that is trained as a seizure alert dog. Other people may need two service animals for the same task, such as a person who needs two dogs to assist him or her with stability when walking. Staff may ask the two permissible questions (See Question 7) about each of the dogs. If both dogs can be accommodated, both should be allowed in. In some circumstances, however, it may not be possible to accommodate more than one service animal. For example, in a crowded small restaurant, only one dog may be able to fit under the table. The only other place for the second dog would be in the aisle, which would block the space between tables. In this case, staff may request that one of the dogs be left outside.
Q14. Does a hospital have to allow an in-patient with a disability to keep a service animal in his or her room?

A. Generally, yes. Service animals must be allowed in patient rooms and anywhere else in the hospital the public and patients are allowed to go. They cannot be excluded on the grounds that staff can provide the same services.
Q15. What happens if a patient who uses a service animal is admitted to the hospital and is unable to care for or supervise their animal?

A. If the patient is not able to care for the service animal, the patient can make arrangements for a family member or friend to come to the hospital to provide these services, as it is always preferable that the service animal and its handler not be separated, or to keep the dog during the hospitalization. If the patient is unable to care for the dog and is unable to arrange for someone else to care for the dog, the hospital may place the dog in a boarding facility until the patient is released, or make other appropriate arrangements. However, the hospital must give the patient the opportunity to make arrangements for the dog's care before taking such steps.
Q16. Must a service animal be allowed to ride in an ambulance with its handler?

A. Generally, yes. However, if the space in the ambulance is crowded and the dog's presence would interfere with the emergency medical staff's ability to treat the patient, staff should make other arrangements to have the dog transported to the hospital.
CERTIFICATION AND REGISTRATION
Q17. Does the ADA require that service animals be certified as service animals?

A. No. Covered entities may not require documentation, such as proof that the animal has been certified, trained, or licensed as a service animal, as a condition for entry.

There are individuals and organizations that sell service animal certification or registration documents online. These documents do not convey any rights under the ADA and the Department of Justice does not recognize them as proof that the dog is a service animal.

Q18. My city requires all dogs to be vaccinated. Does this apply to my service animal?

A. Yes. Individuals who have service animals are not exempt from local animal control or public health requirements.
Q19. My city requires all dogs to be registered and licensed. Does this apply to my service animal?

A. Yes. Service animals are subject to local dog licensing and registration requirements.
Q20. My city requires me to register my dog as a service animal. Is this legal under the ADA?

A. No. Mandatory registration of service animals is not permissible under the ADA. However, as stated above, service animals are subject to the same licensing and vaccination rules that are applied to all dogs.
Q21. My city / college offers a voluntary registry program for people with disabilities who use service animals and provides a special tag identifying the dogs as service animals. Is this legal under the ADA?

A. Yes. Colleges and other entities, such as local governments, may offer voluntary registries. Many communities maintain a voluntary registry that serves a public purpose, for example, to ensure that emergency staff know to look for service animals during an emergency evacuation process. Some offer a benefit, such as a reduced dog license fee, for individuals who register their service animals. Registries for purposes like this are permitted under the ADA. An entity may not, however, require that a dog be registered as a service animal as a condition of being permitted in public places. This would be a violation of the ADA.
BREEDS
Q22. Can service animals be any breed of dog?

A. Yes. The ADA does not restrict the type of dog breeds that can be service animals.
Q23. Can individuals with disabilities be refused access to a facility based solely on the breed of their service animal?

A. No. A service animal may not be excluded based on assumptions or stereotypes about the animal's breed or how the animal might behave. However, if a particular service animal behaves in a way that poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others, has a history of such behavior, or is not under the control of the handler, that animal may be excluded. If an animal is excluded for such reasons, staff must still offer their goods or services to the person without the animal present.
Q24. If a municipality has an ordinance that bans certain dog breeds, does the ban apply to service animals?

A. No. Municipalities that prohibit specific breeds of dogs must make an exception for a service animal of a prohibited breed, unless the dog poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. Under the “direct threat” provisions of the ADA, local jurisdictions need to determine, on a case-by-case basis, whether a particular service animal can be excluded based on that particular animal’s actual behavior or history, but they may not exclude a service animal because of fears or generalizations about how an animal or breed might behave. It is important to note that breed restrictions differ significantly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In fact, some jurisdictions have no breed restrictions.
EXCLUSION OF SERVICE ANIMALS
Q25. When can service animals be excluded?

A. The ADA does not require covered entities to modify policies, practices, or procedures if it would “fundamentally alter” the nature of the goods, services, programs, or activities provided to the public. Nor does it overrule legitimate safety requirements. If admitting service animals would fundamentally alter the nature of a service or program, service animals may be prohibited. In addition, if a particular service animal is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it, or if it is not housebroken, that animal may be excluded.
Q26. When might a service dog's presence fundamentally alter the nature of a service or program provided to the public?

A. In most settings, the presence of a service animal will not result in a fundamental alteration. However, there are some exceptions. For example, at a boarding school, service animals could be restricted from a specific area of a dormitory reserved specifically for students with allergies to dog dander. At a zoo, service animals can be restricted from areas where the animals on display are the natural prey or natural predators of dogs, where the presence of a dog would be disruptive, causing the displayed animals to behave aggressively or become agitated. They cannot be restricted from other areas of the zoo.
Q27. What does under control mean? Do service animals have to be on a leash? Do they have to be quiet and not bark?

A. The ADA requires that service animals be under the control of the handler at all times. In most instances, the handler will be the individual with a disability or a third party who accompanies the individual with a disability. In the school (K-12) context and in similar settings, the school or similar entity may need to provide some assistance to enable a particular student to handle his or her service animal. The service animal must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered while in public places unless these devices interfere with the service animal's work or the person's disability prevents use of these devices. In that case, the person must use voice, signal, or other effective means to maintain control of the animal. For example, a person who uses a wheelchair may use a long, retractable leash to allow her service animal to pick up or retrieve items. She may not allow the dog to wander away from her and must maintain control of the dog, even if it is retrieving an item at a distance from her. Or, a returning veteran who has PTSD and has great difficulty entering unfamiliar spaces may have a dog that is trained to enter a space, check to see that no threats are there, and come back and signal that it is safe to enter. The dog must be off leash to do its job, but may be leashed at other times. Under control also means that a service animal should not be allowed to bark repeatedly in a lecture hall, theater, library, or other quiet place. However, if a dog barks just once, or barks because someone has provoked it, this would not mean that the dog is out of control.
Q28. What can my staff do when a service animal is being disruptive?

A. If a service animal is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it, staff may request that the animal be removed from the premises.
Q29. Are hotel guests allowed to leave their service animals in their hotel room when they leave the hotel?

A. No, the dog must be under the handler's control at all times.
Q30. What happens if a person thinks a covered entity's staff has discriminated against him or her?

A. Individuals who believe that they have been illegally denied access or service because they use service animals may file a complaint with the U.S. Department of Justice. Individuals also have the right to file a private lawsuit in Federal court charging the entity with discrimination under the ADA.
MISCELLANEOUS
Q31. Are stores required to allow service animals to be placed in a shopping cart?

A. Generally, the dog must stay on the floor, or the person must carry the dog. For example, if a person with diabetes has a glucose alert dog, he may carry the dog in a chest pack so it can be close to his face to allow the dog to smell his breath to alert him of a change in glucose levels.
Q32. Are restaurants, bars, and other places that serve food or drink required to allow service animals to be seated on chairs or allow the animal to be fed at the table?

A. No. Seating, food, and drink are provided for customer use only. The ADA gives a person with a disability the right to be accompanied by his or her service animal, but covered entities are not required to allow an animal to sit or be fed at the table.
Q33. Are gyms, fitness centers, hotels, or municipalities that have swimming pools required to allow a service animal in the pool with its handler?

A. No. The ADA does not override public health rules that prohibit dogs in swimming pools. However, service animals must be allowed on the pool deck and in other areas where the public is allowed to go.
Q34. Are churches, temples, synagogues, mosques, and other places of worship required to allow individuals to bring their service animals into the facility?

A. No. Religious institutions and organizations are specifically exempt from the ADA. However, there may be State laws that apply to religious organizations.
Q35. Do apartments, mobile home parks, and other residential properties have to comply with the ADA?

A. The ADA applies to housing programs administered by state and local governments, such as public housing authorities, and by places of public accommodation, such as public and private universities. In addition, the Fair Housing Act applies to virtually all types of housing, both public and privately-owned, including housing covered by the ADA. Under the Fair Housing Act, housing providers are obligated to permit, as a reasonable accommodation, the use of animals that work, provide assistance, or perform tasks that benefit persons with a disabilities, or provide emotional support to alleviate a symptom or effect of a disability. For information about these Fair Housing Act requirements see HUD’s Notice on Service Animals and Assistance Animals for People with Disabilities in Housing and HUD-funded Programs.
Q36. Do Federal agencies, such as the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, have to comply with the ADA?

A. No. Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 is the Federal law that protects the rights of people with disabilities to participate in Federal programs and services. For information or to file a complaint, contact the agency's equal opportunity office.
Q37. Do commercial airlines have to comply with the ADA?

A. No. The Air Carrier Access Act is the Federal law that protects the rights of people with disabilities in air travel. For information or to file a complaint, contact the U.S. Department of Transportation, Aviation Consumer Protection Division, at 202-366-2220.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 04-01-2018, 12:13 PM:

We had a person come in with a dog in training. The first person it saw it tried to attack. That was the end of that.

We've has a few comfort dogs (or whatever you call them). Not much you can do about them and they weren't disruptive.

It's the little old broads with their little rat-dogs from whom they can never be parted that are the most annoying. They aren't trained, they bark their shrill little barks and I've mostly managed to keep them out.

I guess we can re-open the segregated balcony if we have to go with separate but equal.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 04-01-2018, 12:29 PM:

quote: Martin McCaffery
We've has a few comfort dogs (or whatever you call them). Not much you can do about them and they weren't disruptive.

That's not true. You are under no obligation to admit a "comfort" or "emotional support" animal. Legitimate service animals are almost always dogs (miniature horses, in special cases), and are trained to deal with specific conditions, not general wellness.

One issue I wonder about is liability. If you admit someone with a dog because you've asked and they've given you an answer that you interpret to mean they have a legitimate animal, are you covered if something bad does happen? On the flip side; if you admit an animal that is not covered by ADA or don't at least inquire, could that put you or your company on the hook?

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 04-01-2018, 01:30 PM:

With all the regulations that exist and licenses required (including a barber needing a license for some reason), how is there not an official license for a service dog? That would take away any issues and business don't have to ask any questions. Either the patron has a licensed service dog that is covered under ADA or they don't.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 04-01-2018, 01:48 PM:

There are official permits issued for cars to park in handicapped spaces.

I don't see any reason not to have official permits for service animals. Your car won't bite me if it's parked in a reserved space but your dog might if it's sitting beside me.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 04-01-2018, 03:50 PM:

I think it revolves around the lip service we give the concept of privacy. Back when I was an EMT, we couldn't directly ask a patient if he had AIDS. We had to take precautions as if he/she did and ask some generic question like "do you have any kind of contagious disease process?"...

Maybe it's something like this with ADA. A person can tell you the dog is trained to react to a diabetic issue, but you can't verify that or ask the person if he/she is, in fact, diabetic.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 04-01-2018, 05:08 PM:

quote: Jack Ondracek
Maybe it's something like this with ADA. A person can tell you the dog is trained to react to a diabetic issue, but you can't verify that or ask the person if he/she is, in fact, diabetic.

I don't see any reason that it can't be like prescription drugs. A Dr. has to write a prescription which reveals (at least to the pharmacy) the likely medical issue that you have.

For service dogs, a Dr. could write a prescription to a provider of trained, certified service dogs. When the provider gives the dog to the patient (or a representative of the patient), the provider also informs the department of health who issues a license. The license simply states that the dog is a service dog and it is assigned to the particular patient. Nobody needs to know why after that.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-01-2018, 06:26 PM:

At this time, there is no mechanism to have a certified service animal. There are agencies that do train dogs (and other animals) for all sorts of service work but there is no government backing with it.

In my opinion, criteria should be established for cases that require service animals and that those animals be certified to actually perform those tasks and then have a license (a literal dog tag) that, like prescription medicine, would identify the dog and to whom sh/e is assigned to.

If an animal has such a certification, then, just like taking currency, people should know that it is allowed wherever the person goes. Furthermore, making fake service credentials would carry the same sort of legal penalties as forging any other government document.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 04-01-2018, 08:05 PM:

quote: Lyle Romer
I don't see any reason that it can't be like prescription drugs. A Dr. has to write a prescription which reveals (at least to the pharmacy) the likely medical issue that you have.

That sort of approach makes sense. For that matter, you could be more direct.

The problem is, all of that is against the law. You can't talk to the customers about their condition and you can't ask for verification of the dog's training. You can only take their word and hope the animal doesn't act up. If it doesn't, good. If it does, only then do you have recourse.

Other than that, what could or should be doesn't matter.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-02-2018, 01:07 AM:

Well, since all dogs that are not kept on the owner's property 100% of the time are supposed to be licensed, why can't there be a special class of dog license for service dogs?

It would just be a check box and an affidavit that the owner signs at the bottom of the form, "Under penalty of perjury I confirm that this animal is a 'Service Animal' pursuant to the American's With Disabilities Act...blah, blah, blah..."

It would be easy. There would be no extra cost. It would be voluntary. It would be verifiable.

There could be a special shape, color or stamp on the license tag that would be easily identifiable.

For the purposes of a service animal, we could even treat the term, "Dog License" liberally enough that, if somebody had some other kind of animal, a dog license would cover the situation.

So, if a person has a "helper" monkey they could just go down town and get a dog license.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-02-2018, 09:59 AM:

quote: Randy Stankey
For the purposes of a service animal, we could even treat the term, "Dog License" liberally enough that, if somebody had some other kind of animal, a dog license would cover the situation.

I'd love to show up with my "fully licensed" pet elephant or pet jaguar at your place and try to make that argument. [Wink]

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 04-02-2018, 12:07 PM:

The way it works today, you can indeed bring your elephant. No license required. Just say it's a service animal and you're welcome to have it sit beside you while the show is on.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-02-2018, 02:04 PM:

I'm certainly not for customers simply bringing whatever pet or barnyard animal they might have into a restaurant, on an airplane or into a movie theater just because they want to do so. If the customer has a service animal there should be some professional documentation to back up the medical need for it.

My girlfriend's oldest daughter Rosa suffers from PTSD, something she developed in years of military service in Iraq & Afghanistan doing med-tech work on injured & dying fellow soldiers, seeing all sorts of grisly, horrible things in the process. She has a legit service dog, an English Bulldogge that has gone through years of training. The dog knows how to behave himself in places of business and around new people. He's not stinky either. He usually wears a dog vest with service dog markings on it.

Rosa doesn't take her service dog every place she visits though. Some places, such as movie theaters, just aren't practical. You can't sit in an optimal spot in the auditorium with friends or family and have a service dog crammed between the seating rows. She has caught static from staffers in grocery stores, restaurants or other places where she has brought along her dog, thinking her dog is just some filthy pet.

Regarding the issue of pet allergies they're not in the same ballpark as something like peanut allergies or insect stings, which are far more likely to trigger anaphylactic shock. It usually takes frequent, prolonged exposure to allergens like cat dander to worsen conditions like asthma to dangerous levels. More than twice as many people are allergic to cats than dogs.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-02-2018, 03:26 PM:

There is a huge difference between an emotional support animal and a service animal. Why the heck can businesses not refuse to allow someone without a legitimate, verifiable, registered service animal in? What would happen if they did? There are a ton of stupid laws on the books these days, but surely there isn't one that says that anyone can bring any pet with them wherever they go, and if a business doesn't allow it they can be sued. CAN THERE??

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-02-2018, 04:32 PM:

I think some people have a bit of an old fashioned attitude, that the only kind of service dog is one that helps a blind person walk the streets and that anything outside of that narrow definition is some kind of scam.

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 04-02-2018, 04:45 PM:

I fail to see why any owner of a service dog would ever want to subject them to a theatre. The loud sound system is just going to stress them out.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-02-2018, 07:32 PM:

I have seen plenty of service dogs that have a vest or some sort of "marking" that calls them out as a service animal. There should be a law that such a thing is a REQUIREMENT if you want your pet cow or whatever to be recognized as a service animal. That'd solve a lot of problems right there. Or maybe a driver's-license type thing that a service animal owner could be required to carry and display upon request.

Of course that'll just lead to a whole black market of phony "service animal" vests designed to fit dogs, cats, pigs, donkeys, horses or platypusses.

Clearly SOMETHING has to be done to rein in this lunacy.

We live in a crazy world. I find myself increasingly grateful to be over 60 and to have a comparatively short time left in it. Although I would like to see what happens with the self-driving cars.

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 04-02-2018, 08:04 PM:

You mean like this? https://shop.registermyserviceanimal.com/Vest-ESA-or-Service-Animal-Dog-Cat-Pig-etc-1157.htm

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-02-2018, 09:54 PM:

I think it's pretty sleazy for someone to pass off their pet as if it's a service animal or even an emotional support animal when they have no medical condition that calls for such a thing. It's just their damned pet and they refuse to leave it at home and use the emotional support animal as a ploy to get away with it. The act may not be as low as civilians trying to pass themselves off as military veterans to get all sorts of attention (stolen valor). Still, their stunts work to de-legitimize real service animals and the needs of people who genuinely benefit from having such animals.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 04-02-2018, 11:46 PM:

quote: Frank Cox
The way it works today, you can indeed bring your elephant. No license required. Just say it's a service animal and you're welcome to have it sit beside you while the show is on.

Come on, guys. READ the faq. No elephants, chimpanzees or Moluccan Cockatoos. Only DOGS can be "service animals", except for very specific situations, where a miniature horse can qualify. NOTHING ELSE. The law states how you deal with service animals. It doesn't get into how you might deal with other critters. If you want to admit an emotional support python, that's on you to decide.

To ask "why can't I" merely indicates you haven't read the law. It pretty much states what you can and can not do.

If you don't like the rules, take it up with the ADA. Venting here won't make any difference.

Posted by Nathan McLaughlin (Member # 10057) on 04-02-2018, 11:53 PM:

Hello everyone
My biggest problem with this hole mess is my own kids rights seem to be nonexistent if my kids can't breathe they have to leave a theater we own so someone can bring an animal which means my kids are second class to someone else's needs I don't buy it in the theater business 3 weeks and in this kind of crap is ridiculous

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 04-03-2018, 01:58 AM:

Even though it's your theatre it's still a public place (a place where the public is invited to enter) so you have to follow the laws around things like non-smoking areas and whatnot as well; stuff that wouldn't apply in your private home.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-03-2018, 04:39 AM:

quote: Nathan McLaughlin
My biggest problem with this hole mess is my own kids rights seem to be nonexistent if my kids can't breathe they have to leave a theater we own so someone can bring an animal which means my kids are second class to someone else's needs I don't buy it in the theater business 3 weeks and in this kind of crap is ridiculous

You know, punctuation isn't really a luxury it's more like a form of respect to others.

But, like mentioned in the posts above, nobody is supposed to be threatened like second class, so your kid's allergy is as important as the needs of those with a (legitimate) service animal. In the case that both would end up in the same room at the same time, the law seemingly states that an appropriate solution should be found that serves both equally. So, you could be seated on the opposite side of the theater. If that isn't sufficient, then one of the two might be kindly asked to attend the show at a later hour for example. Nobody should get an advantage over the other.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-03-2018, 10:21 AM:

quote: Nathan McLaughlin
My biggest problem with this hole mess is my own kids rights seem to be nonexistent if my kids can't breathe

Nathan, are your kids allergic to dogs? I've known plenty of people who were allergic to cats, but I've yet to meet someone who was personally allergic to dogs. I'm sure there are some who do have such allergies, but from what I've gathered doing some online research is dog allergies are rare.

There are lots of people who don't like how dogs can smell, but that's not the same as an actual allergy.

Another question is how many service dogs have you seen brought into a movie theater? I've personally seen them in lots of different public places, but I can't recall ever seeing one brought into a movie theater. The stadium seating layout of contemporary movie theaters just doesn't provide any practical space for a service dog. The dog owner would be stuck having to use one of those wheelchair seats, which are typically in isolated, shitty spots in the room. That's why my girlfriend's daughter doesn't bring her dog to a movie theater.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-03-2018, 11:23 AM:

My girlfriend is allergic to dogs, cats and other animals.

She is so allergic to horses that, if she touches a horse, she will break out in hives. One time, when she was a kid, she went horseback riding and her legs broke out so badly that she couldn’t walk, even though she was wearing jeans.

Worse, she has asthma which can be aggravated by animal dander.

She often hesitates to visit my parents house because they have a dog. (A Brittany Spaniel.) Even when we do visit, we have to make sure she has her asthma inhaler In case of breathing trouble.

Strangely, we have a cat that she isn’t allergic to but only THIS cat. Somehow, she has acclimated to our cat, “Casper,” which is a white, American Shorthair. If she is exposed to another cat she may or may not have an allergic reaction.

Bottom line: You never know what kinds of animals a person might be allergic to and you can’t always tell until a person is actually exposed to a particular animal.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 04-03-2018, 11:52 AM:

Bobby, I'm allergic to dogs and cats. Fortuneately, not the deadly serious kind. I can be around them for a little while, but pay the price of puffy eyes and constricted breathing. And lots of sneezing.
As dog allergies have always been "normal" for me, it is odd to see you've never heard of them. Oh well.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-03-2018, 01:36 PM:

My mom-in-law was horribly allergic to dogs and cats both. I never saw anything like it. If she even went into a room where a dog HAD BEEN in the past month, she would start to get watery eyes, be wheezing and eventually have trouble breathing if she didn't get to fresh air. The symptoms would start within just a few minutes. She went to various doctors and tried all kinds of remedies over the years but nothing worked.

For a long time I thought it was all in her head, but one time she came to visit us and almost immediately started to get sick...she said there had to have been a dog in our house, but we don't have a dog. Eventually we remembered my wife had "dog sat" for our neighbors for two days a couple of weeks before.

So yeah, the struggle is real for certain people.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 04-03-2018, 02:40 PM:

I think this portion of the Q&A applies:

When can service animals be excluded?

A. The ADA does not require covered entities to modify policies, practices, or procedures if it would “fundamentally alter” the nature of the goods, services, programs, or activities provided to the public. Nor does it overrule legitimate safety requirements. If admitting service animals would fundamentally alter the nature of a service or program, service animals may be prohibited. In addition, if a particular service animal is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it, or if it is not housebroken, that animal may be excluded.

At issue would be the definition of "fundamentally alter". A dog blocking an aisle could be addressed under "legitimate safety".

In short, I think the law does give you some latitude.

Posted by Adam Peterson (Member # 10421) on 04-13-2018, 11:51 AM:

"but as we talked they said they trained ADA dogs"

Are the dogs they're trying to bring to the theatre "service dogs in-training?"

or

Are the dogs fully licensed service dogs working for the owner?

Also... if this theatre happens to be on a reservation, or owned / operated by a reservation, ADA does not apply. They have sovereignty over regs in their building...

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 04-14-2018, 04:41 AM:

Over the years I ran an outdoor cinema I frequently had requests to bring dogs in..particularly the small lap type of pooch. Initially I allowed them to bring them in rather than keep them outside in a parked car on a hot night.
It got out of hand one night when an elderly lady brought her Maltese cross in with her..almost carrying it in her bag & she assured me that she would NOT let it loose.
On the same night I had two 14YO girls get dropped off by their mum to view the movie and they came complete with a wriggling Aust Cattle Dog puppy. Having already let one dog in I was reluctant to allow another but as mother had vanished I really had no choice & relented when the girls produced a lead & assured me that they would keep him tied to the chair they were sitting in. OK I thought NO problem.
All was well until the elderly lady let her mutt loose & apparently the Maltese wandered down to where the 2 girls had their dog tethered.

There is something about Cattle Dogs and smaller dogs they just don't get along (having had 2 Cattle Dogs I am sure they think the little things are cats & thus fair game).
Once the pup got wind of the Maltese it was on & the girls HAD tethered their puppy to the seat frame BUT it was not their seat but the vacant one alongside.
So in the middle of a movie the Cattle Dog pup took off after the Maltese dragging a gang of 4 stackable tip up type seats behind it on the lead.
All hell broke loose when the seat assembly got stuck & the pup was barking like hell, the girls where yelling at their pup & the old dear was making an equal racket trying to get her Maltese back into her bag.

Had to stop the show and put the lights on move the girls & their pup & help the old dear retrieve her wandering Maltese & settle everything down and back on with the show.

SO NO Dogs after that until I had requests to allow Dogs for the Blind who were "in training" to come in so that they could get used to crowds & become socialised and THEY were never a problem. [Smile]

Dog poo on grass would be a big problem if people stepped on it or worse sat upon it as the venue encourages patrons to picnic on the grassed grounds [Frown]

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 04-14-2018, 05:11 AM:

I've run into this on airplanes as well.

I have had to change my seat because the passenger next to me had a service dog, and even though I found someone to swap with me, even from four rows back and across the aisle, I had a runny nose and was miserable for the entire flight.

The only option the flight crew had for me was to take a different flight "on standby." Gee thanks.

If I saw a service dog in a theater, I would probably request a refund and would attend a different showing.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 05-23-2018, 07:19 AM:

Jim Jeffries on Service Animals