Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Popcorn going stale?

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Posted by Jay Glaus (Member # 6011) on 08-22-2018, 03:32 AM:

Hi all,

Recently I've noticed something about my popcorn...

I always like to check the garbage cans in the field at the end of the night, gives me an idea of what they liked and what they didn't like. Also can see if theres a certain kind of food being brought in that I should consider adding to the menu. Recently though, I've noticed an alarming trend with my popcorn, in which I believe it is going stale.

Here is why I believe it is going stale. On busy nights, I am popping it and handing it out as fast as I can scoop it into tubs. Generally on those kind of nights my refill percentage is high and I find very little thrown out or uneaten. However on slower nights where the popcorn sits in the warmer for a little before being bought, I notice a lower percentage on refills and more getting thrown out.

Everyone has always raved about our popcorn, both staff and customers. I eat it quite frequently and it is way better than store bought or microwave popcorn. I think it's just like the popcorn I remember when I was just a little guy going to the movies. However, I believe it is going stale way faster than it should. Does anyone have any idea what would cause popcorn to go stale fast? Could my kettle not be heating properly, or my display case not be at the correct temperature? I checked my display case and it is between 170-175 degrees. It feels very warm.

I have even tried different oils, thinking maybe that had something to do with it. The one I seemed to have the most luck and positive comments with is gold medal's Tasty Pop oil blend. And as for corn I use Gold Medal's maxi pop. And if it means anything My popper is a Gold Medal 32oz Pop O Gold popper.

I never had any problem with popcorn going stale like this before. I used to pop it up a few hours before we opened (at the time our electrical service was kind of strained so once everything was on and we were cooking it really came close to overloading the main if I had to pop during peak time, problem is fixed now though I pop throughout the night) and whatever I had at the end of the night still tasted like it was just popped. Now you can tell the leftover popcorn just doesn't taste as fresh.

I can't understand what would make this happened. I haven't changed anything in my popcorn recipe in forever, aside from trying different oils when I noticed this.

Any idea what could be doing this? Any suggestions? I'm open to any ideas. Popcorn is part of the drive in experience.

Thanks,

Jay

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-22-2018, 07:12 AM:

I don't know about your particular oil blend, but I've always had the best experience with those that were essentially 100% coconut oil. It's high on saturated fat, but most definitely tastes better than those generic vegetable oil mixes.

In order to avoid your popcorn from getting stale, it's important to make sure the steam can freely escape from your popper. If the moisture from within the kernels should not condense back and mix with your popping corn.

Also, the popper needs to be sufficiently hot and get there quickly. If it takes too long to get to the right temperature, you're overcooking the corn and it will end up being chewy.

One trick I've been thought for popcorn that's not consumed immediately, but as stock is to let it cool down in a large open vat or box, sometimes even stirring it gently, so all the remaining moisture can evaporate. Only after it has cooled down to room temperature, you put it into the enclosed display heaters. Also make sure those are bone-dry.

Popcorn you want to store longer should be immediately bagged in air-tight sealed bags after it has cooled down. Never put warm popcorn into sealed bags.

Disclaimer: I'm just repeating what I've learned and worked well for me. There is no scientific proof to back anything of this up. [Wink]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-22-2018, 07:17 AM:

Could it be a humidity issue?

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 08-22-2018, 09:15 AM:

Could be Scott, it's been more humid this year in our neck of the woods. We're not popping too much at a time, and only leaving a few bags each size in our self-serve warmer. We don't do refills here, however we replace a bag whenever requested and let people know that on humid nights, it gets "chewy" if they don't eat it reasonably soon.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-22-2018, 09:57 AM:

Dave may be on to something there. You might look into whether your bin warmer really is working as it should. You need heat, but also enough dry air circulation around the corn to keep it crisp.

In any case, I don't think the popcorn is going "stale", as the word might imply.

For many years, exhibitors purchased popcorn "pre-popped". Companies, like Cretors, manufacture(d) industrial-scale poppers, facilitating production of popcorn into something like 5 pound bags. The theatre only had to empty those bags into standard merchandising warmers, rather than deal with the heat, exhaust and cleaning issues surrounding local production. In my area, a drive-in chain did this exclusively, and several indoor houses also bought their popcorn this way. The pre-pop producer was in Seattle and brought in coconut oil by railroad tanker; storing it in heated, underground tanks.

In my community, the (then) General Cinemas outlet popped their corn in advance; filling and storing large bags from a dual-kettle popper on the floor above the concession stand. Some 25 years back, one of my drive-ins suffered a major failure in its gas-fired popper, and we popped corn for the place for some time... with not a single complaint.

Properly warmed and handled, popcorn, like a nacho chip or taco shell, will hold much longer than you might care to think. On the other hand, you don't get the ambient smell and visual incentives that you do when watching "your" popcorn being freshly popped... and there is something to be said for that.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-22-2018, 10:20 AM:

Stale popcorn is almost always popcorn that has absorbed too much water. It's not only a problem with popcorn, but nachos have the same problem.

Salty popcorn and salty snacks in general tend to get "stale" in open air, as the salt attracts water.

Salty popcorn gets stale sooner than sweetened popcorn. I guess the sugar also serves as a bit of a protective layer around it.

Like already mentioned, you need to make sure your warmer is really dry and you're not circulating humid air through it or it will become pretty stale rather soon.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 08-22-2018, 01:50 PM:

Have you sampled the popcorn in those situations yourself? I'm not saying sample the discarded popcorn, but rather try the popcorn by getting some served to you on those slow nights and compare to how it tastes on a busy night with a lot of popcorn turnover.

Something else to consider is that perhaps the popcorn isn't stale, but rather isn't properly popped, so it's inedible. I was at a movie yesterday and got a "large" popcorn (served in a small tub, don't know the volume) and I would say that I had about 2.5 cups of popcorn at the end that wasn't edible. Almost like it was the bottom of the batch that should have ended up under the screen, but I don't think that they were scraping the bottom of the bin when they served it. Either half-popped, hard, or whatever, it went in the trash.

The concession stand was swamped when I left the movie, so I didn't attempt to talk to a manager about it, but you might be able to tell by looking at the discarded popcorn if people are getting inedibles instead of decent popcorn.

Kudos to you for noticing this and caring enough to investigate. If you get a reputation for poor quality concessions, that important revenue source is going to dwindle. If you have the ability to do an after-visit survey of your customers, you might be able to find out some valuable information as well.

I didn't see a way for people to fill out a comment card on your web site, but that would be something that you could add and then advertise to your customers to get feedback from them.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-22-2018, 04:23 PM:

Odell's Classic Blend is good stuff.

Trick is: the hotter the kettle, the more the popcorn explodes and rids of that trapped in moisture the seeds contains.

Get as close to 450 degrees as possible before seed and oil delivery.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 08-22-2018, 04:35 PM:

Just a thought:

Are your employees pushing the popcorn down in the warmers with the scoop? I've noticed that the handling of the popcorn is quite important. I've had employees that tend to use a scoop to push the popcorn down in the bag or bucket when serving it and also the warmer. It breaks the popcorn up and it less edible. This tends to happen more on the slow nights as the popcorn doesn't move out of the warmer fast enough.

Posted by Richard B. Perrine (Member # 409) on 08-22-2018, 04:57 PM:

I used yo pop 30 bags on a Friday to get us through the weekend.
BTW I used Flavorcal seasoning. Gold metal popper.
Creators had too many un-popped kernels.
and I would always sift the small crumbs out of the bin. Nothing is worse than getting a tub with the bottom 1/4 of it being crumbs.
we'd put pour the bags into the warmer....what I noticed is that it takes several hour of warming to dry the moisture out of corn that was popped the day before.
My theory was that the corn when cold adsorbed moisture..so at least 2 hours warming to crisp it again.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-22-2018, 06:29 PM:

Course, warmed up popcorn after sitting cold reminds me of re-heated french fries done in the microwave.

Once moisture enters a food item that has already been cooked and then the food reheated to eliminate the moisture, that moisture has altered the taste of the product.

Lot of cinemas will toss out the closing night's popcorn and always start fresh for the next day.

Flavacol is great stuff to use as seasoning salt along with using a great Gold Medal popper.

I've worked with Cretors for bunches of years and one really must know how to work with a Cretors, for one can make excellent popcorn out of a Cretor's popper.

Trick is to have the oil to seed ratio between 3, up to 4 to 1. If you have a 44 oz kettle (which is sugar weight in a white sack), oil delivery is around 11oz of oil.

Plus, don't try to cook every kernel, for that's impossible.

Plus if you do, the rest of the batch is stirring in the kettle starting to burn and gets mixed in with the fresher popped stuff.

I used to dump when there is about a second between kernel explosions.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-22-2018, 06:32 PM:

We used to have a Manley popcorn machine but we switched to Cretors about 20 or so years ago. The manual for the Manley machine said to put the oil in the kettle, turn on the heat, and throw a few kernels in the oil. When those kernels pop, put the rest of the corn in. That way the oil is just the right temperature. They say if the oil is too hot, the corn pops too fast and doesn't taste as good; and if too cold, the corn pops too slow and is chewy.

The Cretors manual on the other hand, probably due to "fire" concerns, tells you to put the popcorn and oil in first, THEN turn on the heat. So I don't know which procedure makes more sense, but we always make at least two batches a night so all but the first batch are closer to the "Manley way."

We always leave the previous night's corn in the popper, except we "deep-clean" the machine each Wednesday so all the corn gets tossed that night.

My daily ritual is, I stop by the theater after my lunch break, turn on the warmers and get myself a soda, so the corn is nice and hot and crispy by show time.

I've actually had people tell me that our day-old popcorn tastes better than the new stuff, which I'm not sure how that is, but "the customer is always right?"

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-22-2018, 06:40 PM:

I like starting up a kettle, get it to temp, add the seed and the oil goes in last.

Seed takes away some of the kettle heat so the oil doesn't have a chance to flash.

Seed and oil a cold kettle takes a lot longer for that first batch to come out.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-22-2018, 08:58 PM:

If your popper has doors, leave them open just a crack during popping but shut them when done popping.

If your popper has air filters, check to be sure that they are clean and aren't clogged with oil, etc.

As to the way to pop, I learned to put the oil in first then turn on the kettle heat then drop in three kernels of corn and wait for them to pop before dumping in the salt and the rest of the corn.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-23-2018, 03:49 AM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
I've actually had people tell me that our day-old popcorn tastes better than the new stuff, which I'm not sure how that is, but "the customer is always right?"

Some stuff just get's better with age. Maybe you should sell it as Robust Pop-Corn or Dry-Aged Pop-corn. [Wink]

Almost 20 years ago I used to work at a location where we centrally produced the popcorn for two "satellite" sites. We used the method of letting it dry and cool before bagging it. The stuff they got was barely a day old but still tasted great, even after being "reheated". I'd even say the stuff was quite a bit more crispy than when it came fresh out of the popper.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority prefers crispy popcorn, compared to the pre-packaged chewy stuff you buy at the store.

quote: Mike Blakesley
They say if the oil is too hot, the corn pops too fast and doesn't taste as good; and if too cold, the corn pops too slow and is chewy.

quote: Randy Stankey
As to the way to pop, I learned to put the oil in first then turn on the kettle heat then drop in three kernels of corn and wait for them to pop before dumping in the salt and the rest of the corn.

Well, the "old way" to do it is indeed the best, as you avoid overcooking the corn. But most modern kettles get to the "popping temperature" pretty fast, so overcooking is usually not a real problem.

I guess why new poppers don't like you using the old way is not necessarily fire, but the chance of you getting burned by hot oil spattering around.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-23-2018, 10:05 AM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
I guess why new poppers don't like you using the old way is not necessarily fire, but the chance of you getting burned by hot oil spattering around.

Oh... that could be, but we had it happen once, so I wouldn't discount the fire potential.

In our case, our employee made it worse when she panicked and dumped the burning oil into the bin full of popped corn. We got it out before it did more than spread "burning popcorn smoke" everywhere... but that was bad enough.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-23-2018, 02:19 PM:

Worked at at 4plex in the late 1980's where we had a 32oz Cretor's President from the early 1980's.

This was when you could adjust the T-stat to get the kettle hot as you want it...and hotter the better yields would come out of that kettle. We loved that popper and so did the patrons making comment on how our popcorn tasted, where we had the best tasting popcorn in the city.

Sad is that you really had to keep an eye (more like an ear) when the popping kernel speed was really slowing down, that was the signal to do the dump and do the cycle over again.

I was upstairs in the booth and got a call that the kettle was on fire.

Barreled downstairs and I couldn't see inside the lobby.

There was a fire alright and a big one, but the newly installed ast mgr did a major freak show by, instead of getting a cup of salt, which was right down by the seed bin, to throw in the kettle to extinguish the fire, she grabbed the ABC extinguisher and shot the whole bottle into the kettle itself and everywhere.

Course, that hot kettle burned the ABC stuff burned like mad and coated everything in the lobby with white.

We had to evacuate and close down the complex due to the potential hazards of the dust-sent the patrons out the exit door.

Our inventory had to be written off that was in the cases.

We had to get a new kettle since all of that ABC shot in the kettle had turned solid due to the heat - it was like glass.

We spent the rest of the day cleaning up the powder.

DM came in the next day to access the damage, heavily, to almost a threat to the mgr of the procedures of handling an extinguisher and other fire safety concerns that was related to this incident.

As for that ast mgr ... she quit that next day also. That stress really took it out of her.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-23-2018, 09:18 PM:

Regardless of which recipe you use or what order you put the oil and popcorn into the kettle, the most important thing is that somebody is paying attention.

I have seen people catch a popper on fire doing it both ways, oil first or corn first. In all cases, it happened because nobody was watching the popper the way they should.

I was also there when a kid caught a popper on fire because he connected a BIB of root beer to the oil pump then tried to pop popcorn with full strength root beer syrup! The sugar burned into a black, rock-hard clump at the bottom of the kettle and the acid in the syrup, heated to 400+ degrees, stripped the plating from the kettle and pitted the base metal. The "spider" was scorched to the bottom of the pan, the shaft was broken and the motor was trashed. It was impossible to get the caked root beer syrup out of the oil pump. It, pretty much, trashed the whole inside of the popper, costing a couple-few thousand dollars to repair and replace all the burned and gummed-up parts... yet the kid who did it wasn't even written up.

The moral of the story is that 99% of popper fires happen because people aren't paying attention.

Posted by James Wyrembelski (Member # 9037) on 08-23-2018, 11:49 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
The manual for the Manley machine said to put the oil in the kettle, turn on the heat, and throw a few kernels in the oil.

We have a 1936 Burch that's still up and running. Manual says to put the oil in and turn kettle on. Wait for a rolling action from the smoke rather than a straight up direction, then add corn.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-24-2018, 03:08 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
The moral of the story is that 99% of popper fires happen because people aren't paying attention.

Who trained the kid, plus how did syrup and oil get mixed up?

That's the other side of the coin - is proper training on working with cooking devices.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-24-2018, 08:34 PM:

The kid who popped popcorn with root beer syrup wasn't the brightest light bulb in the box. As a matter of fact, I'm not certain that he was completely literate. He always seemed about a half bubble off plumb to me.

He was probably trained en-masse where the manager du jour in the concession department trained a whole group of employees by, simply, showing them how but not explaining a whole lot.

The popping oil came in BIBs, the same size and shape as the soda but it had a different connector that was supposed to be incompatible with the soda... EXCEPT for the root beer. Root beer is supposed to have an incompatible connector to keep a person from accidentally connecting it to the wrong line. (Once root beer gets into a line it always tastes like root beer.)

The popper manufacturer (Cretors, I believe) uses the root beer connector, on the theory that it would prevent accidentally popping popcorn with soda syrup... until some illiterate individual who can't tell "R-o-o-t--B-e-e-r" from "P-o-p-c-o-r-n" gets his grubby mitts on a box of syrup.

This was one of the most dain bramaged things I ever saw happen in a theater!

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-25-2018, 01:30 PM:

Then again, Randy, whoever put the two bibs in a location that would allow a kid who's a half bubble off plumb (love that expression) to be able to easily interchange the two wasn't all that plumb either. Cretors saw the possibility of a human error and went so far as to used incompatible connectors. And while you can't predict every mistake that human beings are capable of ingeniously inventing to thwart safety mechanisms (in the old days of lamphouses, how many exhaust safety vanes would you guess were tied off so they wouldn't trip the interlock switch?), maybe management shouldn't have located that root beer hose that closet to the oil spigot.

quote:
Course, that hot kettle burned the ABC stuff like mad and coated everything in the lobby with white. We had to evacuate and close down the complex due to the potential hazards of the dust-sent the patrons out the exit door.

Our inventory had to be written off that was in the cases. We had to get a new kettle since all of that ABC shot in the kettle had turned solid due to the heat - it was like glass. We spent the rest of the day cleaning up the powder.

Been there Randy and it was less than pretty and even more costly. All I can say is, GET RID of ALL dry powder chemical fire extinguishers anywhere in your purview! The dry chemical extinguishers use Monoammonium Phosphate, while yes, it will put out that fire, but woe is to the people who need to do the clean up. But worse than that -- we had a UPS that bust in to flames in a server room and I grabbed the extinguish that was right there in the corner...how luck for me. Yes, it put out the fire, but the superfine chemical powder migrates EVERYWHERE with the slightest air current and way beyond where you spread it, even into adjacent rooms. If you were talking about it just messing stuff to clean up, that would be one thing, but this stuff CORRODES METAL...in a server room. We eventually needed to replace ALL the CAT5e patch bays, replace most of the cards in a Panasonic Business Digital PBX system, totally replace a marquee control system not to mention every patch cord, keyboard, mouse, etc., that was in the room. The stuff got into every piece of equipment, corroding internal contacts. Stuff started to fail within a month. Modular jacks and sockets became intermittent. You'd open a patchbay only to find a yellow-white powder on everything in it. Everything became unreliable.

It is also a severe irritant to the lungs if breathed in, which of course someone using a fire extinguisher to put out a fire rarely has the where with all to think of putting on a face mask to avoid breathing it in.

Come to find, every fire extinguisher in the PAC -- the projection booths, the recording studios, the lighting control rooms -- every one was outfitted with an effin dry powder extinguisher. We replaced ALL of them with CO2 extinguishers which are just as effective (but yes, more expensive) and unlike the dry chemical, the CO2 completely dissipates with in a 30 or so seconds of being sprayed and without leaving any residue. I strongly recommend you check what fire extinguishers you have and if they are not CO2 -- replace them ASAP. You sure as hell don't to be caught needing to use a dry chemical anywhere near expensive electronic equipment in an emergency; near a digital projector?!!

Posted by Greg McGuire (Member # 10524) on 08-25-2018, 04:28 PM:

A few months ago we noticed a problem with our popcorn at our cinema and one of the managers reached out to our supplier. I can't remember exactly what the manager reported back to us, but they told us something about the moisture content of the kernels being wrong at the time of manufacturing and they sent us a few bags of free product to make up for it.

To the best of my knowledge, we haven't had any problems since.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-25-2018, 08:03 PM:

I once got an emergency call from a theater in Bristol, VA by a kid who was in the midst of a projector fire on a busy Saturday night.

He told me that he was going to get a fire extinguisher but I told him, flat-out, "NO!"

This was on a Christie console. The best we could figure, one of the diodes went out (as is common for that kind of power supply) and somebody replaced the diodes without even looking at the symbols printed on them. The just pulled a hand full of diodes out of the box and put them in randomly. Of course, the breaker tripped immediately but some retard took duct tape and taped the breaker in the ON position then tried to run the show.

Well... DUH!!... The power supply went up in flames!

Captain Obvious was standing there by the burning projector, belching smoke, asking me what to do. I had to yell at him, three times, to turn the damn thing off!

He wanted to use an extinguisher but I knew he didn't know how to use one properly. ANY extinguisher!

At the time, Cinemark had two types of extinguishers in their booths: Halon and ABC/Dry Chemical. Halon for electronics/projectors and ABC for anything else.

I was certain that, even if he wasn't in a panic, he couldn't tell the two apart... again, this boy was about a half a bubble off...and even if he picked the right one by random chance, he'd probably just spray it all over the room.

I told him, loudly, that projector consoles are made out of steel, partly for the purpose of containing a fire and that if he would just turn it off, it would probably burn itself out in a few minutes.

He kept asking me what happens if the fire spreads and I told him (again...yelling) that if the fire spreads outside the projector a fire extinguisher would be useless anyway... just head for the nearest fire exit and pull the fire alarm on your way out.

Anyhow, after much hollering and gnashing of teeth, I did get him to turn off the power and, within a minute, the fire did burn itself out.

Once things had settled down, I told him that, if he did use a dry powder extinguisher, he would have ruined every piece of electronic equipment in the area, costing TENS of thousands of dollars worth of damage.

I still have pictures of the aftermath.

It's one of the main reasons I ended up quitting that job. [Frown]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-11-2018, 03:14 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
It's one of the main reasons I ended up quitting that job

I have a similar, yet not fire related, but it's still a classic.

I was Presentation Mgr and head Screwdriver User at a 21 plex. We had full Christie: 35GPS, CH40 consoles and AW3R platters.

This goes back to 1998. Still doing hot with Titanic.

I work the evening shifts while I had two guys doing the morning and afternoon. Morning guy leaves and I take over his shift to close.

I get there one day and the afternoon guy who ran East Booth tells me this story and laughing hard at the same time.

Plex was large enough to have the building split for each operator to do their own set of booths.

He tells me that the guy who ran West Booth had an issue. Fellow claims to be booth smart being in his early 40's.

He radios over to the guy in East Booth to come over to "verify" something. East Booth guy goes over and just about hits the ceiling in what he saw.

There was that guy just standing there watching this projector beat itself to death since both loops have collapsed and beating the crud out of the print.

East Booth Guy immediately shuts down the projector, resets the loops and restart. Then, he ask the West Booth guy on where is his common sense to shut down the machine when there was a problem like this.

West Booth guy said that he has common sense, but just wanted some outside visual verification that there was a problem before he commences to shut down the projector.

We had to order another reel since that one had sprocket holes all knackered out.

That was 20 yrs ago ... and East Booth guy and I still talk about this since he went on to do IT in a firm. I tease him, "before you start anything, better get it verified by me first..!"

Yep, one of the many reasons for digital.

-Monte

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-11-2018, 08:28 PM:

I always told my new people to shut the projector down and call me, right away, if something unexpected were to happen, no matter how small it might seem.

I'd rather have the projector shut down for two minutes because of some insignificant thing instead of damaging film or equipment which might cause a cancelled show.

Even today, whenever I teach somebody something new, I tell them the same... Better safe than sorry.