Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Lion King 2019

This is topic Lion King 2019 - soft volume in forum Ground Level at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=003203

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-19-2019, 03:30 PM:

Just pre-tested the movie and found that the volume is quite low compared to other movies.

I would suggest running it at least 1 fader step higher than your usual, maybe more. The opening song (same as in the original version) loses about 80% of its impact if it's played too soft.

Posted by James Wyrembelski (Member # 9037) on 07-19-2019, 03:47 PM:

THANK YOU

I thought it was just me....

I had MIB set at 4....Lion King is at 5.4

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-20-2019, 04:47 PM:

Wow. Low volume? On a movie like The Lion King?

I wonder if any of the people involved with this project watched the original 1994 animated film in a good quality theater playing the original Dolby Digital 5.1 mix. That one could never be associated with soft volume. It has been 25 years, but I can still clearly remember how the sound system at the GCC Northpark #1 theater in Dallas handled that mix. The explosive drum beat on the film's title card pounded the air in my chest. It was scary dynamic. The original "Dolby Stereo Digital" trailer that played on the front of it was thunderous as hell. The summer of 1994 had other movies with great, boisterous sound mixes, like True Lies.

Movie sound is now in a somewhat contrary place now. The digital audio tracks on a DCP have the capacity to play much higher quality audio than the lossy compressed formats introduced in the early 1990's. But back then when discrete digital surround sound was a new thing both the filmmakers and commercial movie theaters seemed to have more fun with it. The audio was more bombastic and chest pounding, especially in a good quality theater like the Northpark #1 THX house.

Today when I watch a movie in a commercial theater the experience is far more ordinary. I'll hear some things in the surrounds and clearly know the audio is 5.1 or 7.1. But most of the time the sound is turned way down. An audience member might experience some dynamics on an element like a gun shot or explosion in a premium priced house like IMAX or Dolby Cinema. But it's not startling and fun like it was in the old days.

Posted by Sascha F. Roll (Member # 9043) on 07-20-2019, 06:18 PM:

Well if it's sounds a bit soft at 5.0 that perfectly makes sense as you're 6 to 7 dB below reference - play it at 7 as intended and it'll be fine.

Don't really see the problem.

Posted by Steve Moore (Member # 4753) on 07-20-2019, 07:46 PM:

Agreed here too. It's actually the first film I can remember playing with the fader at 7 in years; generally 5 or 5.5 is plenty loud enough for most tiles these days in our cinema.

It does not have the great impact that it did back on film, especially that final drum on the the opening version of "The circle of lies"

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 07-20-2019, 10:23 PM:

Disneys near-field mixes have been soft here lately too. Damn it what is wrong with them?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-21-2019, 12:50 AM:

I doubt anything is "wrong" with Disney. It is more likely that everyone else has added so much compression and "sweetening" to the mixes of today that everything simply sounds loud and people are just getting used to playing with their fader set lower.

If you want to hear the mix sound like shit, just wait until it's on bluray after they have "near field remixed" it to poop and back. [puke]

I am with Sascha here...play it at 7 (or at least try 6) and see what happens.

Bobby - I seem to recall we ran the original Lion King at something like 7.5 or 8 on the fader at the GCC Northpark. It was a good SRD mix and could run louder than normal because of it.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-21-2019, 02:28 AM:

I certainly could not say what fader settings were used on The Lion King at the Northpark. But DAMN, the way the sound mix thundered through that sound system was really impressive. The title card moment at the front and end of the movie is iconic for just how "holy shit" dynamic it sounded. Add to that the thunder taking place in a huge 1000+ seat auditorium. There's a lot more in the movie than just the title card stuff. And, yes, it's hasn't been remotely the same on DVD and Blu-ray. The dynamics have been very toned down. It's all dynamics compression hell. Make all the quiet scenes louder than they need to be and all the bombastic moments far less so. It's as if the same disease that has infected popular music production has spilled over into movies. They're mixing the show as if we're going to listen to it over a HAM radio.

I never did get to tour the booth at the Northpark, although Ron Beardmore did put the offer out there one of the times I met him there back in the early 1990's. IIRC, I had talked to one of the staffers there about how much I was impressed by presentation quality and that led to a conversation in the lobby with Ron who happened to be there at the time. I wish I would have taken him up on the offer. I didn't figure the theater would be closed just a few years later.
[Frown]

Posted by James Wyrembelski (Member # 9037) on 07-21-2019, 02:39 PM:

Got an email from Deluxe regarding sound level, requesting all theaters set their sound to 7.

That would blow my room apart.

I have it set above 5, one kid had to leave due to the loud lion roars scaring him.

The mix is odd in my opinion. The lion roars are quite loud and room shaking, yet some of the music seems restrained. Dialogue is generally even, though some parts seem a bit too faint comparing the normal dialogue level. And agree with Mike, if its even just a tad bit too low the intro music is quite underwhelming.

Posted by Brent Barnhart (Member # 10321) on 07-21-2019, 04:04 PM:

Agreed. We can’t touch anything above 5.5 or we would blow the walls off the place.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-21-2019, 04:42 PM:

I'm running ours at 6.1. Usually we play around 4.8 to 5.0. It all depends on the dialogue.

quote: Sascha F. Roll
Well if it's sounds a bit soft at 5.0 that perfectly makes sense as you're 6 to 7 dB below reference - play it at 7 as intended and it'll be fine.

Don't really see the problem.

It's not a "problem," it's just a "difference" from many other movies at this point in time. We play almost all of our movies between 4.5 and 5.1, but this one didn't sound good here (to me) until 6.1. I tried it at 7 and thought it was too loud. Again, I let the dialogue rule the day. The songs sound nice and loud and the "talking" is in the normal range where you don't think it's too loud.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 07-21-2019, 09:16 PM:

The Lion King film was before quad and it was Dolby Digital We had not installed DD at that time, so ran it in SR. I remember staff rushing into the theatre to hear the opening - it was so impressive.
I don't think I will ever be as awed as I was with mag stereo back in the day.

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 07-22-2019, 09:02 AM:

quote: Steve Moore
Agreed here too. It's actually the first film I can remember playing with the fader at 7 in years; generally 5 or 5.5 is plenty loud enough for most tiles these days in our cinema.

This is why I see fewer and fewer movies in theatres these days.

Everything should be played at 7, period.

Unless your installers messed up your calibration, the surround processor was calibrated to a certain level in the theater at 7, and the mixers mix with processors set to 7.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-22-2019, 09:20 AM:

Such a simplistic view of sound. It would be nice if one could simply use one metric (overall SPL) to evaluate subjective sound levels without regard to acoustics, frequency, distortion, 1st arrival versus reflected, decay time...etc.

The only way your statement would be true is if the theatre closely resembled the sound stage it was mixed on, down to the size, equipment, acoustics. The further you depart from that the less true it becomes (hence the original concept behind the THX program).

And even then, it also depends on the person mixing the movie and what they thought was a tolerable level and whatever hearing fatigue they were suffering from due to being at that level for the duration of the mix.

If most theatres played most movies at 7.0 (period), while they may gain you and a percentage of other patrons, they'd lose 75% of their existing patrons and likely find legislation being introduced to combat excessive levels in theatres and turn that into a government regulation.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 07-22-2019, 10:03 AM:

quote: William Kucharski
and the mixers mix with processors set to 7

Well, they don't.

http://www.associationdesmixeurs.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/NIVEAU-DE-MIXAGE-CINEMA.pdf

- Carsten

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-22-2019, 04:21 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Such a simplistic view of sound. It would be nice if one could simply use one metric (overall SPL) to evaluate subjective sound levels without regard to acoustics, frequency, distortion, 1st arrival versus reflected, decay time...etc.

Tom Holman, early in the process of establishing THX criteria, dreamed of cinemas with no fader. True story!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-23-2019, 07:33 AM:

Sam, you forgot to capture my line about "the original concept behind THX" that would reinforce your statement!

But yes, if the theatre could resemble the mixing room in terms of acoustics and performance, the theatre would hear what they heard and no need for further adjustments. The flaw there is that it presumes all patrons have the same tolerance as the person mixing the movie for things like volume. A business is going to respond to customer complaints if it wants to stay in business. You can educate them only so much (some less than others). The customer's solution to the problem would be to not go to the theatre anymore and stay at home where they DO have volume controls.

I do think we would be better served to standardize on LEQm and set realistic levels of tolerance for everything (ads, previews, features). Heck, it probably wouldn't be too hard for any DSP based sound processor (probably any being made now) to provide an LEQ(m) number on a CPL by CPL basis. Wouldn't that be pretty cool since a theatre could find a volume level for everything that is consistent with their customer base!

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 07-23-2019, 10:18 AM:

Also, SMPTE has a group on "B-chain Expectations" that is looking at ways of improving the consistency of sound in theaters. The group is meeting today, so if you are a SMPTE member, sign up!

Harold

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-23-2019, 03:04 PM:

quote: William Kucharski
Everything should be played at 7, period.

If I played our system at 7 we would definitely lose business. It would drive ME crazy.

And we are calibrated every time our tech visits, and we've been through three different techs over the last 25 years or so, and they all say we're calibrated properly, and it STILL sounds best somewhere between 4.5 and 5.0 in 90% of cases. If we run it at 7, explosions and such sound really impressive but the dialogue just sounds too loud for listening comfort.

I always have the same complaint at CinemaCon... where they probably play everything at 7, and without fail it sounds too loud to me. Of course, there, you're mostly watching trailers which are always too loud to start with.

For what it's worth, in 40 years in the business I have never had one complaint that our sound was too soft. I HAVE had the occasional "boy, that's loud!" comment. (They are usually smiling when they say it.)

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-23-2019, 03:18 PM:

I had a customer a few years back want to set up a private showing of some kind of art project. He was completely sold on the idea of having the fader set to 7 and wanted me to run a test with that value (we normally run at 4.0). So I obliged him, and I can honestly say it was physically uncomfortable for it to be that loud.

The level where we normally set the fader is where we do not get complaints of too loud or too quite. Every now and then we get a customer who wants it turned up, but this always leads to customers complaining it's too loud.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 07-31-2019, 12:17 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
But most of the time the sound is turned way down.

Quite the opposite in the theaters I attend in NYC. It's almost always at ear-piercing levels. I really don't want to be yelled at when it's a quiet talking scene. And when there's an action scene, the volume is at rock concert levels and highly compressed, so there's little dynamic range. I've taken to bringing hearing protection with me like I do at music shows. I don't wear them throughout the entire film, but I'll put them in if it gets bad.

I think part of the problem is that theaters set the volume for when there's a full house, but when a screening isn't very crowded, like during weekdays during the day, there aren't enough bodies (and in the summer, not enough coats) to absorb all that sound.

I've heard some lousy sound, but I can't remember the last time I thought the level was too low.

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 07-31-2019, 12:24 PM:

"I think part of the problem is that theaters set the volume for when there's a full house, but when a screening isn't very crowded, like during weekdays during the day, there aren't enough bodies (and in the summer, not enough coats) to absorb all that sound."

But, we generally do B chain alignment including level set (screen speakers at 85 dB (C) with -20 dB FS pink noise and surrounds at 82 dB (C) with an empty house. As such, I'd expect the level with an audience to be too low due to absorbtion. Also, how does absorbtion of empty chairs compare with full chairs? We are generally relying on direct sound, so reflections are minimal to begin with.

Harold

Posted by Allen Arin (Member # 10988) on 09-02-2019, 12:54 AM:

It won't be good to go above 5.5 [Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-02-2019, 09:29 AM:

I wonder how many hear know of the "Dolby Fader Characteristic." That is, the digital faders try to simulate a log-taper analog fader using a 2-slope method (Harold can chime in if the USL products it was associated with followed suit).

The hinge point is at "4.0". Below 4.0, the slope is MUCH steeper. From 0.0-4.0, you move from -90dB to -10dB (and 80dB change). From 4.0 to 7.0 you only move 10dB so doing some quick math, each 0.1 step is only .33 dB of difference (not much). Playing at 5.0 you are 5.67dB down. But the difference between 4.0 and 3.9 is much more drastic, that is a 2dB difference versus the mere .33dB difference between 4.0 and 4.1.

The point is that is bad to be hovering around the 4.0 point on a typical linear scale fader. Even on analog processors, the VCAs are not going to track very well down in that range from channel to channel.

For typical cinemas (not screening rooms or those prone to handle studio screenings), I'll target 82dBc for the main channels to build in a 3dB cushion (which is like lowering the fader to 6.1). This tends to keep the fader in the sweet spot of 5-7 for most of my customers.

I have also found that the better your speakers are, the better the acoustics of your room, the higher the volume can go without being offensive.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 09-02-2019, 05:21 PM:

Thanks for that graph Steve. Always wondered exactly how it "tracked" if you will. 4 to 3.9 wow.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-02-2019, 05:52 PM:

It's even more complicated than this. I always wondered why so many colleagues mention playing main features on their Dolby processors well below 5, and preshow below 4. While the typical setting on our (and other colleagues') Datasat AP20 is between 5.5 and 6.0.

Well, recently I compiled this table, and marked 'our' typical main feature level (5.5, Datasat AP20) with it's actual attentuation figure (-8dB) against the same value of other processors. And immediately it becomes clear. With the same calibration setting performed at 7.0, a Dolby processor at 4.5 will output roughly the same level as the AP20 at 5.5.

That image only shows the most interesting part, I have a full range Excel table if anyone is interested. Dolby here means CP650/750/850/950. The USL JSD80/JSD100 are somewhere between Datasat and Dolby, a bit closer to Datatsat. Which complies with a few other colleagues using JSD80/JSD100.
The USL JSD60 is somewhat special, as early firmware revisions apply the USL curve, while later ones (from 140723) emulate the Dolby curve. I think it would be good if all common processors used the same curve, as no one is playing at 7.0. I hope Dolby doesn't hold a patent on that curve ;-)

- Carsten

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-02-2019, 06:02 PM:

I do know about the Dolby fader curve. It's interesting to see Carsten's graph of other processors.

But even between Dolby models it might not be entirely consistent. I've checked the CP850 manual, but I couldn't find it. To me, it feels like the fader curve of the CP850 is less linear than that of the CP750, maybe the intention was to somewhat smooth the pretty hard transition point at 4.0?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-02-2019, 06:21 PM:

Well, there is a reason why there is that behaviour below 4.0. Dolby was free to choose anything beginning with the CP500. I am sure they don't believe that anything below 4.0 should be part of regular cinema operation. At some point well below reference, you want the volume to get down (or come up) quickly when turning the dial. And you want it to hit zero, -11, or infinity, whatever you call it.

- Carsten

Posted by Michael Kurtzke (Member # 7512) on 09-02-2019, 06:31 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
I think it would be good if all common processors used the same curve, as no one is playing at 7.0.

I hate to be "that guy" but we play almost everything at 7.0, maybe 6.2 if it's poorly mixed.

In a well-tuned house, you shouldn't get many complaints. Sure, we get one every now and again (mainly from WB titles) but we tend to stick to 5.0 for Trailers and 7.0 for features.

On our QSC processors we do -6.0 and 0.0 respectively.

It can vary for repository titles. Some run hotter than others, like the latest Clue DCP. We ran that down at 4.5!

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-02-2019, 06:39 PM:

On all ATMOS screenings I have attended so far, I got the impression that they were a bit on the soft side compared to what I experience from traditional 5.1/7.1 installations in similar auditoriums/chains, etc.

I am wondering wether ATMOS leaves some more headroom, or the room calibrations follows a slightly different scheme with it.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-02-2019, 10:39 PM:

That's an interesting chart indeed.

I'm sure Dolby was approximating their log (antilog) taper of the analog products, to a degree.

It would appear that USL decided to add an additional hinge point at 5.0 to increase the rate of descent. I would presume there is another hinge point to increase the rate so they get to the -90 or -100dB by the time they get to 0.0.

The Datasat people clearly thing .5dB is enough precision in the decline and I don't think they are wrong. Getting into .1dB precision on a volume control is overly critical.

Whereas only 0dB or 7.0 is the only defined level, they are really free to do whatever they think is best. The only downside is if you have a mix of brands using a 0-10 scale, as Carsten's chart shows, the same number can mean different things. If people took my 3dB compensation rule, that would move Carsten's magic number up to -5dB, which puts both Dolby and USL faders at 5.5, which is more in the sweet-spot of a typical fader.

Atmos definitely leaves itself 10dB more headroom (they reference -30dB to 85dBc...this is done at the sound processor, not the mix) BUT...the overall level should match. That is, if the Atmos track/connection fails in some manner, and you are on the 5.1/7.1 track, the level should be the same.