Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Curious

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Posted by Betsie Beadling (Member # 591) on 03-01-2001, 05:36 AM:

When i go See Movies.
I Sometimes notice a Dot on upper Right
Corner? what is that??

What Month does Shrek come out??
I am Excited about the Shrek Movie

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Posted by Frank Rapisardi (Member # 435) on 03-01-2001, 06:52 AM:

Betsie;those marks are cigarette burns.(Que marks) in olden days when we used carbon arch machines;two of the them they signal when it's time to make change overs.(From onemachine to the other) You did this throughout the entire show. Also had to constantly adjust carbon rods.Negative and positive. Then came the day of single projectors and platters. No more change overs.However I still enjoyed these older machines,(You were actually more involved with the show)

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-01-2001, 07:50 AM:

Standard SMPTE 301 specifies the position of "Motor Cues" and "Changeover Cues". Each set of cues is four frames of circles in the upper right corner of the frame. The changeover cues are 18 frames before the (hopefully) black runout tail leader. There are 172 frames between the motor cue (when the projectionist starts the second projector motor), and the changeover cue, when the picture and sound are instantly switched to the second projector.

The 172 frames between the motor cue and changeover cue allow the second projector to come up to "sound speed" prior to the changeover. The 18 frames of picture after the changeover cue allow the projectionist time to react to seeing the cue and make the changeover (usual reaction time is 1/3 second = 8 frames).

The cues are usually circles on the film, so a "flat" picture using a spherical lens will have circles on the screen, and an anamorphic "scope" lens will elongate the circles into ovals.

Most theatres today use platters for automation, so changeovers are no longer needed. But some theatres still use two projectors with changeovers, so the cues are still printed on almost all prints. Even with two projectors, theatres often splice several reels together, so only one or two changeovers are needed.

The proper term is "Cue Marks", not "Cigarette Burns". This has been discussed before on Film-Tech, and no one recalls the term "cigarette burns" ever being used by projectionists to describe cue marks prior to the movie "Fight Club".

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 03-01-2001, 10:33 AM:

Betsie, don't listen to those know-it-all guys.

The industry standard cue mark is a big orange grease pencil X across the entire picture. You'll usually see a number of these.

In old theatres, you could hear the warning for these warnings, usually about two or three minutes before the changeover. There were three basic variations of sound you might hear. Either the projectionist would put coins in the reel of film to drop out and clatter (you could sometimes tell how much the projectionist was paid by the different clunks of the coins), or there would be an arm with an oily and dirty roller on the end of it that rode the center of the film (leaving either a line of oil or a scratch for the entire reel)and dropped against the film case when the diameter of the reel got smaller, or there was a ding ding ding bell that dropped balls against a bicycle bell when the rotation of the reel spindle reached a certain speed. All of the above could be heard in the auditorium, sometimes musically accompanied by the "Oh S**T!" and sudden banging of film cabinets by the projectionist who had fogotten to lace the next projector.

The first (optional) big "X" on the film was to tell the projectionist to put his cigarette down and exhale to clear the air near the port so that he could see, the second one was to tell him to start the motor on the projector and open the manual dowser on the arc light, the third was to tell him to stomp on the changeover foot pedal and break it, (any of you guys _ever_ see a projectionist gently tap these switches instead of killing it?) while simultaniously pushing a button or flipping a lever to change over the sound to the other projector, or record player, or microphone in the booth if he was unlucky. (Hands up, how many remember LPs and record changers on the non-synch?)

Those second and third X's were usually accompanied by dozens of tiny misshappen circles and paper punch holes throughout the picture, along with some baby sized X's in the upper right corner. On rare occassions, you could watch an entire tic-tac-toe game played out as the film neared the changeover point. As an added bonus, the audience often got to see detailed close-ups of clods of dirt, ashes, and nose hair that had been transferred to the film from the projection booth floor and overturned ashtray near the rewind table.

When the film changed to the other projector, the audience would notice the sudden absense of the circles and x's, along with the disconcerting fact that people were suddenly walking on their own heads. Far back in the auditorium, there would be the sounds of a muffled "Damn!" and body parts hitting sheet metal. The people on the screen then would magically rise to the center of the screen, the feet would disappear, and the picture would continue.

Depending on the theatre, sometimes the audience missed the entire changeover show, as the light from the projecter slowly got dimmer and then began turning geeenish, finally going out entirely except for a faint reddish glow. The sound would continue if it was deemed important, or the next reel would go onscreen within a few seconds if it wasn't.

Ah yaas, the good old days.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-01-2001, 10:58 AM:

Jerry: Fortunately, none of those procedures were ever submitted to SMPTE for standardization! Not that they didn't happen in some theatres.

Posted by Betsie Beadling (Member # 591) on 03-01-2001, 10:59 AM:

Hee hee
I dont Smoke though

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-01-2001, 12:15 PM:

The best early warning was a bell mounted on a pendulam arm that would reing when the centrifugal force of the reel spinneng faster as it got close to the end.
They were invented and manufactured in British Columbia and were called the Jackson Reel Alarm

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-01-2001, 12:55 PM:

There was an old carbon arc booth I ran in the '60's, and the porthole viewing porthole was so low you had to sit in a chair to do make the changeovers. I used "clickers" in that booth. They never failed. I could make the changeovers by standing up then, but I would still have to get on at least one knee to check the focus.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-01-2001, 01:01 PM:

Jerry, that happened alot. Been there in my training days...

But, usually I would at least clean up the cues as much as possible during film inspection.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-01-2001, 04:44 PM:

As far as I know, smoking in the booth is a code violation almost everywhere. Presumably, it is a holdover from the nitrate era.

There's also the problem of "second cue appears, picture goes black, sound countinues for a couple of seconds, tail leader appears, screen goes white, someone in the booth yells 'oh, @#%*!' and the movie starts again in another minute." I admit to having been responsible for a couple of these...

I don't think I've ever seen anyone forget to thread up the second machine though. With carbons, my usual method is to make the changeover, then open the lamphouse on the idle projector (so as not to forget to adjust the carbons!), start film rewinding, thread up next reel, and then change or adjust the carbons (which should be cool enough to touch by then); by that time, the reel on the bench should have finished rewinding and was ready to go back into the film cabinet. I would think that forgetting to check the carbons would be a bigger problem than forgetting to thread up the projector.

Does anyone still install the clangy bells? I'm not a big fan of them, since they can almost always be heard in the auditorium. I guess they're helpful with enclosed reel magazines, but I haven't seen either item in any newish installation.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 03-01-2001, 05:48 PM:

They are only called 'cigarette burns' in "Fight Club".

Cue Marks is the correct term.

-Aaron

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-01-2001, 06:54 PM:

Scott, I have 3 (the ding ding ding) ones. Want one? Pay the postage and I'll give you one. They are cool. I like them!

CLANG!!! CLANG!!! CLANG!!! The ball is still in it.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-01-2001, 09:13 PM:

Scott, the fire department in my area didn't know the difference between a lighted cigarette, a hot case of breaking wind, a blow torch, or a carbon arc plazma ball. Apparently, they thought they were all all the same!

Fire marshall: "What's that smell?"
Projectionist: "The carbon arc hit a gas pocket."
Fire Marshall: "Oh."

(No need to blame it on the dog)

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-01-2001, 11:59 PM:

When I was a teenager, in our town there used to be a drive-in, owned by the parents of a friend of mine. I used to help out in the booth to get free movies. I'd run one machine, and my friend would tend the other.

My friend (name: George) had a bad habit of "getting into" watching the movie and forgetting to thread his projector. One time, I reminded him twice to thread, but all he managed to do was put his reel in the upper magazine...never threaded it. I decided to teach him a lesson. I just sat back and watched the fun.... the "dinger" on my machine went off; George (while still staring at the screen) stepped back and started his lamphouse; when the motor cue went by, he started the projector, and then he made a perfect changeover to...a blank screen, because he still hadn't threaded! I never saw a guy work so fast in my life, and it got even funnier when his dad (who used to be an Airforce Major) came storming into the booth yelling GODAMMIT! IF YOU WERENT SO BUSY WATCHING THE GODDAM MOVIE YOU MIGHT GET SOME WORK DONE AROUND HERE etc etc etc while the car horns were blaring in the background.

Needless to say he never let one "slide" again.

Of course nowadays in my adult-ness, I'd never let such a thing happen in a booth I was working in! :wink:

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 03-02-2001, 12:04 AM:

SMPTE approved

reasons for forgetting to thread up:
1. The film truck driver arrived early and wants to schmooze while you break down the 5000 foot reels. The shaggy dog and the brick are still in the airplane.
2. You are running 2000 foot reels opening night in a twin, and the depot sends short reels of 4 and 8 minutes without heads, just to liven things up.
3. You're nursing a bad lamphouse on one machine, and a sprocketed print on another, and your wife is calling upset because you have to work Christmas.
4. The new film you just got in in the other auditorium has some of the most bodacious looking... Woops, ladies present!
5. You came to work with a 101 degree fever and stuffed head, coughing your lungs out, because the booth is your responsibility.
6. The new candy girl has the most bo... Woops! Projectionists didn't get to be dirty old men without some serious practice.
7. The baseball game on the radio is bases loaded and in overtime.
8. The new cashier has... Down boy!
9. The booth is 110 and the roof hatch door is so inviting.
10. You are called downstairs to "help out" by a manager who understaffed.

None of the above have _ever_ happened.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-02-2001, 01:29 AM:

And, then there was an incident that happened in the '60's at a drive-in theater where the projectionist forgot to insure the upper reel was "locked" in the magazine. About one minute or so after the change-over, the reel fell out of the magazine, took several bounces on the concrete floor of the booth and rolled out the booth door on the field, leaving a trail of film as it rolled. Up and down the ramps for a couple hundred feet, it found its way off the theater property and on to the adjacent freeway, where it was promptly run over by a bunch of cars. What was funny was the poor projectionist running after it to try to stop it. Well, needless to say, he failed.

What a way to ruin your show!

If it is possible to happen in a projection booth, IT FLAT ASS WILL, no question about it! (been there)

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 03-02-2001, 08:32 AM:

Paul, you could title that incident...
Roll On The Floor, Laughing.

BTW, I'm sure I must have been shipped what remained of that reel at some point. The dirt, the tire tracks, & the dog poo on those prints all suddenly start to make sense now.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-07-2001, 08:03 AM:

I've never forgotten to lace up the incoming reel, but the first time I ran a changeover show by myself my boss did something not very nice.

The film was 'Indiana Jones & the Last Crusade' - reels 1 to whatever, neatly lined up ready for the show, all cue marks checked &c. &c. Except that the boss had removed reel 4 of the kids' feature and replaced it with a reel from a porn film called 'Female Foxy Boxers'. Fortunately the smell of (what I now know to be) vinegar syndrome alerted me to something wrong before I laced it up. If it hadn't, the audience would have seen a cut from Harrison Ford hanging out of a Zeppelin to.... well, whatever was in that porn film.

Incidentally, some places, especially art/rep cinemas, still use changeovers. Here we have two projectors plus a platter in each box, so we have the option of showing films either way. For one-off shows, early morning educational screenings, late night specials, archive prints and so on, I always run changeovers. Every now and again I make the other projectionists (none of whom has ever worked in a changeover-only cinema) do it as well. None of them like it, and they'd happily spend two hours assembling a worn-out old print onto a platter rather than watch for the blobs.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-07-2001, 02:02 PM:

Scott said: "With carbons, my usual method is to make the changeover, then open the lamphouse on the idle projector (so as not to forget to adjust the carbons!..."

Just a note of caution. If you are using glass reflectors with a carbon arc lamphouse, let the inside of the lamphouse cool a few minutes before you open the lamphouse to set a new trim. The rush of cool air on the hot reflector could break it.

And to keep from burning your fingers, always assume the carbons are HOT!

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-07-2001, 10:44 PM:

I know a guy who worked in an old changeover theatre. They had an "Employee of the Month" program. When they put his picture up in the lobby, some wise-ass took a red grease pencil and drew a an X on it.

Of course he took it in the humor with which it was intended and left it as is.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 03-07-2001, 10:54 PM:

Heck, that's what wooden clothes pins were for!
Sniff sniff--what's cookin'?
Me.

And don't forget to send those copper drippings to Will Rogers...

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-08-2001, 01:32 AM:

John, I saw lot of carbon arc projectionists open the lamphouse door immediately after they broke the arc. Made me cringe! Just waiting for a loud CRASH of the mirror settling to the bottom.

I always laced the projector first, and the last thing I did was tend to the arc lamp.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-08-2001, 02:36 AM:

John and Paul -- that's an important point that I hadn't thought of. I guess I've been lucky so far...

Having worked mostly with xenon lamps (with both platters and changeovers), I tend to be really nervous about forgetting to check the carbon position before each changeover, and I hadn't thought about the cooling issues at all.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-08-2001, 02:57 AM:

Scott, when you run a carbon arc both, it is good practice to take another peak into the lamphouse when you start making preparations for a change-over just to be sure. Every time. It'll save you from getting caught with a stub that won't burn a full reel. Being forced into an early change-over is embarrassing.

Been there....

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 03-08-2001, 09:30 AM:

About mirrors breaking from cool air hitting them: How many actual incidents of this do you know, and what type of mirrors were they?

What we are talking about is thermal stress from uneven expansion of the glass. While I can see this happening in a mirror that has been improperly mounted and ready to break anyway, I've never had the experience or a mirror breaking like this.

I'll admit to pulling stunts like getting lunch out of the lamphouse during the middle of a reel, and doing live carbon changes. (Not that I suggest anyone else try it)

The intake air from the base of the lamphouse is not, to the best of my recollection, pre-warmed, so cooler air hits the mirror all the time. The glass is thick enough to have some thermal mass, and I would guess that new mirrors are made so that the glass doesn't have internal stress.

Either I was lucky _thousands_ of times, or there is some other factor involved.

FWIW, these were Strong Futuras and Peerless Magnarcs. The Futuras had cold reflectors and the Peerless were plain silvered.

What I would be more concerned about would be a hot xenon bulb, with the gas at high pressure, breaking from thermal shock. You couldn't pay me enough to open a hot xenon lamphouse.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-08-2001, 09:56 AM:

Jerry --- In my days at the Grandview Drive-In, I was told that the large chunk out of the bottom of our Bausch & Lomb Bal-Cor (?) coated reflector broke when the other operator opened the Ashcraft lamp too quickly on a cold spring night. You are probably right that the thermal shock is more likely to break the reflector if there is stress from improper mounting.

BTW, I do admit that we sometimes ran without lamp exhaust running on the cold nights, just to stay warm in the booth. So the mirrors might have been especially hot.

It's a wonder I'm still alive after breathing all those "rare earth" carbon additives At least I didn't heat my food in the lamphouse.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-10-2001, 03:06 PM:

I would presume hot spots on the mirror caused by a sputtering arc (which throws all kinds of nasty stuff on the mirror, such as carbon smoke, chunks of copper, etc.) will cause the mirror to break if hit with a cold blast of air. I only lost one mirror while the lamp was in operation, and I am not sure why that happened.

At the end of the reel, this was my basic procedure to make sure the lamp cools down to a safe temperature proir to opening the lamphouse door:

1. Make the change-over.
2. Break the arc.
3. Shut down the motor when film tails out.
4. Remove spent reel from projector.
5. Place reel into electric rewind.
6. Transfer the coffee pot to the other lamp
(Very Important)
7. Re-lace the other projector, verify lacing by rolling machine forward by hand, re-check framing.
8. Open lamphouse door, re-carbon or adjust.
9. Wipe reflector if needed.
10. Close lamphouse door and strike the arc and get it properly trimmed.
11. Break the arc.
12. Remove rewound film from rewinder. place it in film cabnet.
13. Pour myself a cup of coffee. (Also very important)
14. When it comes close to change-over time, re-verify projector threading and framing.
15. Lift lamphouse door, re-verify.
16. Close lamphouse door, strike the arc (about 1 minute before change-over) so the arc has a chance to stabilize).
17. Make the change-over, repeat sequence.

I never had a mirror crack on me while using this procedure.

Of course, naturally, you stay aware of your surroundings (such as arc trim, picture focus, booth machinery noises, and all that good stuff).

Some (but certainly not all) big mistakes projectionists make:

1. Failure to verify their work.
2. Getting involved in the movie.
3. Failure to set a pattern and adhere to it.