The following comment was in the Wall Street Journal yesterday:

"I think that the economy will crash definitively in the end of this year. It will take 10-12 years before we are back in today’s status. 10-15 big telecom-companies are going to crash within two years. The car industry will be reduced to 50% in Europe and USA and 40% in Japan and Korea within 5 years. Unemployment is going to rise in USA to about 20% after the big crash in the end of this year."

The final outcome of a bankrupt cinema chain, such as carmike and others could be a complete shutdown of operations at least temporarily, particularly if the court decides the business is beyond repair. Then after a while, the better parts of the "bones" might be sold off if other chains are interested in buying, which will likely be only if the price is cheap.

It's true that we may be in for tough times ahead, but I doubt it will be for even half of that 12 year length.
 

That statement from the Wall Street Journel definately seems a bit heavy on the "doom and gloom"!

I try to keep an eye on the financial news shows as often as possible, and I never heard them put it that bad. The experts do seem to agree the the worst isn't here yet, but many analysts are optimistic for as early as 2002.

IMHO, I hope the optimists are correct. We don't need the 30's decade back again. I think that the economy has got to get better... I HOPE, for all of our futures!

------------------
Mark DeLettera
Eastman Kodak Co.
Worldwide Technical Svs.
Rochester, NY
mark.delettera@kodak.com
716-588-4189
 

Houses cost less, especially after they go into foreclosure. People seem to appreciate their underpaid job in the cinema more. We get a higher class of employee. The conversations become more interesting. The Artists move into abandoned downtown properties. The coffee house turns out to be the place to hang out. People start comparing bargains instead of comparing excess spending. Everybody rediscovers cheap entertainment, like going to the movies. The streets have more interesting life because; people park their cars and take the bicycle. Saving energy becomes a competitive sport. They start trading their BMW750ILs for Hondas. Consequently you can pick up a BMW750IL for 1/3 the going price. People invite you over for wonderful, home cooked meals instead of meeting you at an overprice restaurant. Cheap restaurants come back into vogue.

I love economic downturns.

 

quote:

---

Some guy said: "Everybody rediscovers cheap entertainment, like going to the movies."

---

Movies are not cheap entertainment. Unless they plan on lowering the prices. Renting from BlockSucker Video is cheap entertainment.

I don't know if the economy will crash, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. There will always be reports about similar things. Just to get you to buy newspapers (so the publishers can save enough $$$ before the economy crashes)

 

If I remember correctly, movie theatres have historically done well during recessions. Yes, they may have to lower their prices a little, but after all the major chains come out of bankruptcy, they will have no debt and will be able to afford to.
 

Attacking people is not cool on these forums. You owe Mark an apology.

You know Mark then, do you Jerry? I suggest you don't mouth off about someone you obviously know nothing about.

Everyone is entitled to choose.

------------------
"It's not the years, honey...it's the mileage". Indiana Jones
 

Jerry sounds like one of the many union guys that got absolutely burned by my theatre chain almost a year ago. We used to have around one union guy/gal? at every theatre. Then last year, suddenly we had to cut expenses fast cus corporate was spreading the B word. The powers wrote up a new contract and all but a handful of the union people got a letter saying they were no longer needed. It was signed insultingly, "I am <name omitted>"
But really, the union is not the holy mother, and while I love it when our techs come out to help me fix the noisy light making machines, they are expensive. Few theatre companies are going to look at a high paid professional and a minimum wage epsilon semi-moron and chose the pro for daily operations. Sign of the times, and I agree with Ian's outlook; economic shakedown is good.

------------------
Jonathan Haglund
Edwards Theatre Circuit, Inc
Park Place 10
 

I do not mean any disrespect for you, but I will say this exactly one time. Read the FAQ, inparticularly that last paragraph. No ifs ands or butts.

Mark is a well respected tech in the industry and does not deserve to be spoken to in that manner. If you want to make posts regarding unions pro or con, please feel more than free to start up a new topic. Just leave specific people's names, specific theater companie's names and specific local numbers out of it.

 

Kindest Regards,
Mark Gulbrandsen
Motion Picture Sales Manager
Lighting Systems Engineer
General Theatrical Supply
2153 South 700 East
Salt Lake City, UT

The “Chicken Little-like” item in the Wall Street Journal, which actually was a reader’s comment, is not nearly as crazy as one might think. I posted it initially without comments, just to get some debate started. Actually, the “sleeper” in all of this is something either nobody is paying much attention to, or prefers to ignore for whatever reasons; and it is the runaway utility bills materializing this past winter for the first time.

Chances are that Ian Price, who writes saying he “loves economic downturns,” is probably going to get his wish. In such times cash is king, and there is an old, old saying “The only time to buy real estate is when you can pick it up for CASH -- back taxes and pennies on the dollar.”

Ian, you would have loved it here in Billings about ‘87-88. Real estate was in a major slump, HUD/VA foreclosures were on nearly every corner begging to be picked up, and one of my doctor friends was buying with both hands. He is a fine doctor, but also an astute businessman, and today the “business” owns hundreds of rental units. He doesn’t deal with residential tenants, it is all run by a management company, but he and his wife do handle the commercial properties themselves. He’s confessed to me that on a lot of these deals he literally was stealing people’s equity and actually felt badly about it, but if he didn’t buy the stuff, somebody else would. Definitely a case of crying all the way to the bank.

I myself chose not to get into any of this as landlording does not appeal to me; nor does making money off the backs, sufferings and misfortunes of others. It’s just the way I am. Sorry.

My new friend Mark G. who I’m looking forward to meeting soon also makes some good potent statements and addresses the union/non-union issue head on. The union, of course, is the natural enemy of the corporate structure and ruthless, greedy executives who are manipulating to enrich themselves and don’t care about the employees, the company, its stockholders, customers or anyone else.

I’m personally union-neutral these days but have simply said, and will continue to say I don’t think it’s sound business practice to try and 100% run multiple-screen complexes with part-time popcorn shovelers on minimum wage. This is why we have the carmike cinema disaster here in Billings and lots of us don’t go to the movies any more, haven’t for years and may never go again. For much more on this, see our on-going discussions and debate in the “Pearl Harbor” thread.

Successful investors have to develop a knack for visualizing far down the road ahead. Warren Buffett has said, “I prefer simple businesses that I can understand.”

And now... a rough draft of an article I’m writing...

Why a new Great Depression is probably on its way:

In Montana where I live, the price of natural gas which we use for heat, has not just gone up slightly. It has DOUBLED. A 100% increase over last winter.

The $250 heat bill has doubled to $500-600. We have also seen similar runaway escalations elsewhere in the country, with the East hit especially hard.

Many states, including Montana, have restraints on utilities that stop them from cutting off electricity and heat during the winter freeze, to avoid all these disturbing headlines about poor people freezing to death. But starting in about April, the restraints come off and the final disconnect notices go out. It is pay-up or CHOP, off with your head.

It has been reported that in one state, about 18,000 final disconnect notices have gone out, and here, as I have been informed, both gas and electricity are from the same utility, one HUGE bill. These people can’t shuffle the walnut shells around on the table any more... giving the greedy gas company some, and the electric company a little when they haven’t got enough money to pay both. For them, their enemy is a single monster, and it wants its blood money NOW. The party is OVER.

Let’s look at the effects on two groups of people.

For the wealthy, a small group, it doesn’t matter how much the utilities go up. The bills can double, triple, or even increase ten-fold, and it is still less than 1% of their income. So they might grumble a little, but in the final analysis just make out the check and go on with their lives as though nothing happened, as they always do.

The much larger group, which is most households, is heading into severe financial distress. Mortgaged to the hilt, carrying a heavy load of credit card debt at usuruious interest rates, they have up until now been squeaking by from month to month... but still had a little “discretionary income” left over each month. Not any more. The former winter heat bill of, say, $400 per month to heat the house is suddenly now $800 to $1,000; and they have to pay. There is nowhere to run; no wiggle room, no weaseling out. And next winter according to some estimates, the utility bills are going to double yet again.

These families cannot wave a magic wand and suddenly increase their income by an additional $500, or next year $1,000 to pay these utility bills. Indeed, they’d better hope a job is not lost, for if it is, they will be even worse off.

The process has already started, and we will see the cumulative effects of all this begin to set in with a vengeance this summer. Here is what is happening RIGHT NOW in families across America:

-- No more money to go out to dinner in a restaurant.
-- No more money to call up and send out for pizza.
-- No more money to buy new clothes.
-- No more money for the new car payment. It will be repossessed.
-- No more money to go out to the movies.
-- No more money for lunch at work. It’s back to fixing peanut butter sandwiches at home and bringing lunch in a paper bag.
-- No more money for the summer vacation drive in the car to Yellowstone Park or elsewhere. Plans CANCELLED.
-- No more money for motels, restaurant meals, knick-knacks or whatever else might have been purchased on the trip. All CANCELLED; no longer affordable.
-- No more money for airline tickets. Vacation CANCELLED.
-- No more money to buy a new car. Planned purchase CANCELLED.
-- No more money to even fix the old car.
-- No more money to remodel the house. All renovations CANCELLED.
-- No more money for needed medical care.
-- No more money for needed prescription drugs.
-- No more money to heat the house at a comfortable level; the thermostat has to be set at 55-60 degrees and so the whole family is shivering and sneezing. Since there is no money to pay for medical care or medicine -- which unless you have insurance has all become CASH IN ADVANCE OF SERVICES, a family member gets sick and dies, leading to another crisis:
-- No more money for a Funeral, and all the credit cards are already maxed out. So the family has to dig a hole in the back yard and bury Gramma themselves.
-- No more money for holiday gifts, parties and celebrations. Other than the wealthy, most people haven’t much to celebrate about anyway. Thanksgiving dinner CANCELLED. Christmas 2001 CANCELLED.

January 2002: Having held off as long as possible hoping Christmas spending would save them [didn’t happen,] stores start to close en masse, like rows of dominoes tipping over. Hundreds of thousands of workers are laid off. Unemployment figures begin to rise steadily, heading towards 20% and then, during 2003, to 30%.

With their utilities finally cut off completely and huge balances owing, thousands of people freeze to death in their homes as Winter 2002 sets in with a vengeance. The quantity of dead bodies lying about as a result of people being unable to afford funerals begins to become a health hazard in many cities, and the authorities are forced to have pickup trucks drive slowing through neighborhoods, with loudspeakers proclaiming: “BRING OUT YOUR DEAD! BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!”

To Be Continued.

Just speculating...
 

Right now I worry about this about as much as I worry about postage stamps going up. You know the great depresion started because people talked too much and started drawing there money out of the banks. Plus the big dust bowl that killed all the crops and put the farmers in the worst of times. A lot of lessons were learned back then to help prevent that from ever happening again.

As far as I know we could be dead tomorrow. We must live today and be cautious of false prophecies of the future. When people make hasty predictions they can do more harm than good.
 

I respect the men and women of this forum for their technical expertise and experience, and am very grateful to all of them for their advice in matters pertaining to projection equipment and practices.

That said, to be perfectly honest, if I want an economic forecast, there are lots of web-sites that have their own breed of experts that deal in financial matters.

While I have no problem with anyone expressing an opinion about anything, I tend to agree with Darryl that perhaps this should be moved to the "Yak" forum. I often use this site to reference past posts and find non-projection posts an annoyance.

If I may, a very short observation on unions. I was a union projectionist and am a union technician. I have served as president and business agent of a small, now-defunct local. Unions came into being to correct some unfairness as well as dangerous conditions existing in booths handling nitrate film. At the time they were conceived, they served a usefull purpose.

Back during the days of two-projector booths with change-overs and carbon arcs, it was necessary to have a person to oversee the operation constantly. Highly flammible film made it even more necessary.

Xenon lighting, automation, safety film, even tape splicers, combined with severe competition for the entertainment dollar, have changed theatre economics and projection-room practices beyond what we could have imagined back then.

Things just ain't the way they were, and ain't never gonna be again. Maybe it is time some of us began to wake up to that.
 

------------------
John Eickhof President, Chief Slave
Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc.
P.O.Box 258
Wendell, ID. 83355-0258
208-536-5489
email: jeickhof@nteequip.com
 

If all the movie theatres closed down today and I was out of work, I'd go looking for a job in places like plastics shops, etc. It's just about the same technology, just in a different application. Of course there would be a learning curve to overcome but I have confidence in myself enough to believe that I can do it.

Besides I'm not going to lay down and die that easy. If my company decided to fire all of it's projection people today, I'd hit the road and start looking for work in other independant theatres. I know that there are MANY smaller theaters looking for help. If I got myself about 1/2 dozen places all within a day's drive of each other I'd have the makings of a nice little business going.

Unions: I have no problem with them. If my company was unionized, I'd be in the union. I take pride in doing my JOB, not to what organization I belong to. People who know me understand that I got where I am because I work hard, do the best job I know how to and I don't take no crap from people. I know what you are going to say: Without unions the company doesn't have to put any value in it's workers. They can just get 10 more people like you to do the same job for 1/2 as much $$. Well, again my secret is to be "indespensible". You have to teach people that if you weren't doing what you do, the company would be at a disadvantage. I know that there are a lot of cheap companies out there that don't value hard work but you know that those are the ones that won't be around for long anyway. I wouldn't work for a place like that.

Essentially this is all just "Economic Darwinism" -- The strong will survive.
 

>>If my company decided to fire all of it's projection people today, I'd hit the road and start looking for work in other independant theatres. I know that there are MANY smaller theaters looking for help. If I got myself about 1/2 dozen places all within a day's drive of each other I'd have the makings of a nice little business going.<<

Getting a little of topic here, this brings up a question of ethics. I have often been approached either by phone or face-to-face by the owners of small theatres, asking if I could do a little "work on the side" for them. I have always taken the view that, since the company for which I work pays me to work for them, whether in good times or in bad, it would be morally unethical for me to go "semi-independant" and do work outside the company's control. Of course, I do suggest to these owners that they approach the manager of our company about the service they require, and perhaps realize savings by splitting expenses with one of the major chains I may be servicing in their area.

Your reputation travels with you, and you may be hunted by these independants to whom saving money is of paramount importance.

It goes without saying that the inherent problems this would create are enormous. What if, for example, you get paged both from one of your company's customers and one of your own; which one do you handle first? If a part is needed to service on of your own customers and you happen to know that it resides in the warehouse of your company, what do you do?

I am interested as to the opinions of the technicians who work for privately-owned companies, and their attitudes towards this.
 

The interesting question that has not been asked yet is would you loan out parts or perform service to a theater whom you did not work for and have a 99% chance of never working for? I have and still do quite frequently. Fortunately I have never been burned, for I have loaned out somewhat high dollar items like intermittents and digital systems...sometimes to the direct competition. Is this a good thing or not? Well, I am sure there are valid arguments for both, but I have always received the parts back in good condition with no damage and have never charged anyone in that situation for the help. You never know who you will end up working for and in a few instances it brought me future business which I would have otherwise never had. Plus, there is no need to create enemies, even if it is "that theater across the street". Just being on good enough terms to borrow a couple of boxes of Coke syrup has in more than one instance gotten me through a busy weekend back in my managing days.

As long as you don't use "company property" for outside uses, or at least get permission before you do, again there isn't much they can do, is there?

In my short time working down here, there have been at least three instances where I have been asked to "take a look" at somebody's projection equipment for one reason or another. I'm always glad to do it. I just make sure that "The Company" comes first.

If you find yourself "freelancing" on the weekends, etc then I might advise these people that if you get called, you are going to have to run. It's the only fair thing to do, really.
 

On the topic of Unions, they do serve a purpose. In the past, they did fight for employees rights as well as for a living wage. Unfortunately, John is right, that the IA does not seem to care for our trade anymore. But that is another topic.

As for hiring a Union Member, it does not mean that you will get a good operator that knows anything. Few locals offer training. I was fortunate that the local that I am a member of, had several great operators as well as a couple of technicians, that took the time to teach me.

On the topic of working for other companies, I say go for it. I personally last year was working for 6 companies. There was my full time job as an operator, as well as "whoring" myself out on the side to the other companies. Brad is right though, make sure that you put your primary employer first. They will remember if you put someone else first and it won't help you. But there is nothing wrong with working for someone else on your own time.
 

Too many operators were jobless. It seemed like the handwriting on the wall said there was no future in the projectionist locals, which were also dropping like flies.

It was a sad thing for me to see. I guess it was just a sign of the times. When I was President of Local 351, it was like watching one of your children die, and I was helpless. I had no choice but to initiate a merger with Bellingham, which later merged with the Seattle Local.

Also although the internet boom has gone bust, some of the venture capital that was put in will yield sustainable industries (ie economic ones) and this augers well for the future.

As to the future of projectionists?

Whatever the short term effect of DVD (which will probably have much the same effect as video did), people like to go out. Also, asking a girl out to the movies is quite different from asking a girl to come back to your place to see a movie. A movie theatre is public space and thus socially acceptable.
Besides comfort demands that someone else makes the popcorn.

So I see a long future for movie theatres. A chance to get away from Mum and Dad and revisit a world of entertainment quite separate from that of home with the assurance that afterwards you can return to the familial comfort of home.

Technology will however change movie theatres a little. One would expect that economies of scale will lead to fewer, larger multiplexes offering as many as 40, 60 or 100 theatres. There will be no projectionist - rather a complex computter comtrolled digital video distribution system will automatically screen selected films at session times. There will probably be a digital video manager (the projectionist of the future) on hand to handle any glitches.

With the advent of larger complexes it might even be technically feasible to rent your own, smaller theatre for private screenings. You visit your local cinema complex on the Internet and look through a list of films available both old and new. As many titles as are available at a Video store are available. You select the film you like and book a 'cubicle' over the Internet.

A cubicle is a small mini theatre - much like what some people have theorised home theatres might look like but with the added advantage of services such as shops, popcorn vendors nearby. The cubicle can hold up to 20 people.

At the selected time you visit the cubicle with your frinds and show your id (you have already paid over the Internet). The selected film has already been uploaded over the Internet to the cinema complex's main computer which then proceeds to show you the film in glorious digital video and high quality sound. And no adverts!

Science fiction? I wonder...

cheers Peter
 

Thank you.
 

From a practical standpoint, it is much simpler for distribution and production to keep track of a few theatres than try to herd the cats of a glut of tiny cubicles or screening rooms.

The only way that you'll see these develop is if there is a DivX style of pay per view that gets credited directly to the distributor or production co.. Even with that, chances are the technology would have to be the single-band laser projection, to limit the practicality of making copies.

It may appear that we are technology driven, but in fact we are profit driven and we therefore embrace technologies that promise to be cheaper, allowing greater profit margins. We ignore other greater technologies.

High-end stuff for the masses is largely relegated to novelty programs, and with good reason. I am reminded of that sad fact every time I drive down the street and a car drives up next to me with a boomer in the trunk, blasting rap at a volume that loosens the bolts on the muffler. High end audio is rarely used for a high end experience, but the spin-offs are used everyday to stimulate endorphins and destroy the cilia in the inner ear and make people go deaf earlier.

Getting totally off the subject, I got to thinking that the great sound systems in some theatres could be used to recreate fantastic concerts and organ recitals, but other than "Fantasia" and the ilk, that market has been totally ignored. The "fix" of sex and extreme violence sells better. Such is life, where even those that do attend concerts or live theatre may be doing so largely because it is a status symbol, and not because of any real appreciation of the artists.

I think part of the reason we don't have video cubicles is that everyone can comparable video at home.

I think the market for cubicles will be in those films that attract a relatively small audience eg foreign and arthouse films (and most Australian films for that matter).

Mind you if the costs of really good quality home DVD systems come down it will eb hard for cubicles to find a market.

cheers Peter

 

In the early 1900s, you would have two, maybe three workers. You would have a head projectionist, and an assistant. And possibly a fireman, depending on what city you were working in. Between the three workers, they would spend all day in a hot booth threading projectors with 1000' nitrate reels, doing a changeover every 10 minutes, keeping the carbon arcs adjusted, checking the focus, hand-cranking the projector all day, and trying not to set fire to the converted wood-frame opera house that had recently been converted into a movie theatre.

Now that is a job where you damn better have a strong union. It's a demanding, exhausting job, and the projectionist literally held the lives of the theatre patrons in his hands.

Move on a few years; the projectors are motorized, and have 2000' reels. Now the projectionist doesn't have to crank anymore, but he has to keep the vitaphone discs synched with the film, still has to maintain the carbons, and do the changeovers. The film is still nitrate, so some cities, like Chicago, still require a union fireman in the booth at all times.

Move on a few years, and you have sound-on-film, then safety film, then Xenon lighting. Gradually, the projectionist's job shifts from being actively involved in presenting the film, to a more passive role -- instead of constantly operating the machinery, the projectionist is the person who watches over the machinery, and makes sure that it works correctly and optimally.

I think it took until the 1970s before the Chicago projectionists' union lost the battle, and theatres no longer had to hire firemen to sit in the booths. Such is the power of a very powerful union.

Move forward a few more years, and you have continuous loop platter systems, and full automation. The projectionist is spending his or her time optimizing the quality of the image, watching the equipment for malfunction, and maintaining the equipment.

If you think that there will still be a role for a projectionist with digital projection, ask yourself, what will the projectionist be doing?

There's no more film to thread up. The projectors have no moving parts. The lamps only need to be changed once every thousand or so operational hours, the projector will probably stay in focus, and the technology is certainly there to have the projectors auto-focusing.

The movies will probably be stored in a single central computer, which feeds all of the projectors in the building. Your new movies will be automatically received by satellite and stored in the central computer.

Not only will the system probably be fully automated ... but I'll make another prediction.

Theatres will not be able to pay for digital projectors. Instead, the distributors will pay for and own the projectors, for two reasons.

First off, they will save millions of dollars if they don't have to strike, physically transport, and eventually dispose of film prints.

Second, the studios are so paranoid that they will never allow theatres to own digital projectors. If the projectors are owned and operated by the distributors, then they can be sealed, locked cabinets with tamper-proof seals on them -- to prevent someone from hacking into them to pirate the movies. Never mind the question of who can maintain a digital projector -- Theatres will be forbidden to open the covers of their projectors, much less be trusted to maintain them. Besides, if a distributor rents a theatre a $150,000 projector, the last thing he wants is for the popcorn guy to be tampering with it.

Heck, most likely the projectors will eventually be ceiling-mounted, eliminating the need for a booth entirely.

So where does the projectionist fit in to all of this?

He or she DOESN'T!

A. Right now theaters own there own equipment, maintain it, and consider it part of their assets.

B. lenses get dirty and as long as there is dirt in the atmosphere everything will get dirty.

C. If satalite is the choice it is a bad choice if it is anything like sending signals to satalite dishes you get sun black outs. Wouldn't want one of those during a down load.

D. you will still have piracy just by someone sneaking a camera into the theater and filming it right of the screen.
Plus major piracy happens in hollywoods own back yard anyway.

E. there will always be a booth as long as these things are big and need to be accessed for repair.

F. there needs to be some form of back up if system crashes. So having a computer bank and everything crashes on it means you close the doors and go home.

G. Theater owners do not like it when outside sources tell them how to run their opperations. They will not stand for the inabillity to maintain there equipment.

H. Distributors are not going to fork out the money to put a digital projector in every theater screen. Hell they won't even fork out the money to replace damaged film cans.

I. for one think that a projectionist union or not will be around for quite a while. could be ten years or longer before things get to the point that I am sitting at home watching my bigscreen tv. With all my sound equipment set up drinking my soft drink cuddling with the future wife eating popcorn watching our favorite movies and thinking boy this sure beats paying all that money to go to the movies to see the same presentation we can see in our own home

J. Will miss film quality and nastalgia in my old age. You won't see me at the digiplex watching jaws 10 that's for sure.
 

I don't think the effects of a DOUBLING of utility rates can be casually dismissed by saying postage rates go up all the the same breath! Postage rates go up only a penny at a time occasionally, and other things go up in price too, but they don't suddenly DOUBLE or TRIPLE over a period of one or two years, and it is this single factor that -- if nothing is done -- I believe will implode the economy inwards upon itself leading quickly to another Depression.

Don't look to the republicans in power in Washington to do anything about this. The bushchild is palsy-walsy with all sorts of millionaires in the energy business, Cheney made many millions last year, and the bushchild's cabinet is mostly millionaires. This bunch is licking their chops in anticipation of obscene profits from energy production, and it is also ancient economic history that investors will be quite happy with 30% unemployment.

Why? Well, 70% are still employed in such a scenario, but the ones who still have jobs will be terrified of losing them, crunching America down into a subservient work force that can be made to work cheap.

See also, new thread here on film-yak about plunging business earnings, it is a meaty article from the WSJ; also an analysis predicting a dow of 1717, and why. As this is quite long, I didn't want to tangle up this thread about projectionists too much, but it is quite relevant and respectfully suggested reading. Each one here can interpret the future as he sees fit.

Also, a new thread about the carmike bankruptcy, et al.

And my thanks to everyone for the excellent participation in this thread.