This is topic TV Station Videotape Formats in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-20-2001, 02:32 AM:
I know this question has probably been answered here before, but I am way too lazy to search, so it'll just have to be answered again. 
What videotape formats can TV stations accept/play/review?
I assume they can at least watch VHS, correct? How about SVHS? Betacam SP (that's a given)? Regular Beta? Super Beta? That Fisher Price thing that recorded black and white video onto a standard audio cassette tape (Pixelvision?)?
In other words, if I had a videotape of the LAPD trying to scare away a bee that had landed on Rodney King with their batons, which format should I send it in on?
Posted by Steven Gorsky (Member # 603) on 08-20-2001, 02:52 AM:
Just about every station should be able to accept most of those, except the Fisher Price thing , and possibly not regular or super Beta . Some may even accept Digital Betacam, MII, and they probably still have a 3/4" machine around. Steven Gorsky
Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 08-20-2001, 11:20 AM:
Some TV stations & organizations use the digital S format, wich records a digital signal onto 64 or 104 minute tapes that are just bigger than VHS tapes.
I've used the format & it looks really good on a properly calibrated monitor, and it's cheaper than Betacam.Right now, JVC is the main distributor of the format.
Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 08-20-2001, 02:34 PM:
DVC-Pro has been gaining acceptance for HDTV production, though you're more likely to encounter D3 (DVC-Pro in the camera, D3 in the studio). In the analog world Beta SP is still widely accepted, you'll see Hi8 once in a while, 3/4" U-matic is now a dead format though everyone still has their decks. Not long ago I received a promo on 1-inch "C", which is a reel to reel format that preceded Beta SP. I didn't feel like hauling myself across town to get it transferred by the one geek in town who has a working deck in his basement. I still have to maintain Betamax I, II, and III for our archives here. You can still buy blanks at Radio Shack! Just don't expect your local TV station to have it.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-20-2001, 05:03 PM:
Video tape formats really vary from TV station to TV station. I remember years ago when I worked in that field Beta and BetacamSP were the formats of choice. Of course 3/4 inch U-Matic was the older standard and there are still small market TV stations all over the place using it (as well as old vacuum-tube driven field video cameras with separate external tape decks). The TV station where I worked in Georgia had so much old equipment that they maintained the Smithsonian Institution paid the station for one of their really old black and white TV cameras that still worked. Some stations use VHS and S-VHS (a lot of Fox stations where using S-VHS systems in the early 1990s).Digital Betacam was just starting to take hold when I worked at WALB-TV. Formats like D-1, D-2 and D-5 were strictly high end and even remain pretty much that way today. DVC-Pro is a popular digital video format in that the cameras and tape systems are fairly affordable (in professional equipment terms). Lots of small market TV stations have moved to that. Larger TV stations have been using formats like Digital Betacam. And then the HDVS format is trying to take hold in top 20 TV station markets (the really big metro areas). I don't know what the status is behind D-VHS in professional circles, but it is currently in the drivers seat for replacing VHS tape and providing HD quality digital video recording/playback. I would think most TV stations would have to have some capability for handling MiniDV tapes from consumer digital camcorders, as well as the MiniDVs produced by much better semi-pro cameras like Canon's 3CCD GL-1 and XL-1 models.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-20-2001, 05:18 PM:
The XL1 kicks ass. I want 5 more. Why? I dunno. And I want the 3D lens as well, though I'm not sure how it works (I think it uses LCD shutter glasses... that sucks).I guess my real question is: do TV stations that have news programs on them have consumer equipment to play submissions sent to them by average people? A lot of time you will see camcorder footage on the news. I assume they have the means to convert it themselves... or do they make you bring in your camera and play it to their tape format while they record? I have heard that barely any stations have MiniDV.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-20-2001, 05:20 PM:
I wouldn't sujest sending any 2"quad tape either thow there are several working machines still in Toronto
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-20-2001, 06:32 PM:
Man,
I used to maintain RCA TR-22's which were converted from Low Band machines to High Band, and then color, and Ampex AVR-whatevers back in the old TV days. The Ampexe's were the best by far. Its really amazing that the TR-22's ever worked right as they were all germanium transistor based, no I.C.'s at all! VERY temperamental machines and the head wheels were VERY expensive to have rebuilt. When the station moved we abandoned them where they were sitting. There will always be a Quad machine or two in any major post facility worth its weight to transfer over the years of video tape that was accumulated. Sometimes the tapes WILL ONLY play back on the machine they were recorded on too. Then, its too bad for the tape! The only other thing that can be tried is to fly the tape around to all known machines and see if it will play back or not. This was done with some of the old something or other Playhouse tapes form the late 50's and early 60's several years back.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-20-2001, 08:57 PM:
I would think that Beta SP would be the "safest" format for TV broadcast, since the picture quality is entirely decent (for video) and since everyone from low-end stations to the major networks will have the capability to play it back. One point that I did come across at one time is that broadcasters want drop-frame timecode so that they can easily determine the actual running time of a piece. Non-drop-frame timecode is preferred if the material is to be edited, however. This, of course, applies only to NTSC, where we have to deal with the drop-frame/non-drop-frame mess.
As of a few years ago, one-inch tape was still fairly common at TV stations (at least as much as 3/4") and it looks slightly better than Beta SP. Maybe this has changed recently.
I haven't been to a broadcast facility in a while, but it's probably fair to assume that every station will have the capability to play back VHS tape and tweak the signal enough to make it broadcast-able. About seven years ago, some VHS stuff that I've shot (high-school football highlights...nothing exciting) was broadcast on a major-market station, so at least that particular broadcaster had VHS capability. And, yes, it looked like crap (actually, I'm really very good at shooting film or videotape of football games...the problem was with the tape format, not my photographic skills).
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-20-2001, 09:03 PM:
Oh--one more thing: Beta SP tapes come in two sizes. The "small" cassette shell is the type used in cameras and will play back in all machines. The maximum running time is something like 30 minutes. The "large" cassette shell will only work in the studio machines (not portables) and has a maximum running time of something like 125 minutes. This might become important if the station in question only has a portable deck to spare.
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 08-20-2001, 09:45 PM:
I would imagine that any news orginazitation would be able to to dubdown from vhs and SVHS.------------------
--Sean McKinnon
Manager
Loews Cineplex Entertainment
Liberty Tree Mall 20
Danvers, Mass
www.enjoytheshow.com
Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 08-21-2001, 12:19 AM:
All the stations in town still have 1" decks, personally I like them. those machines are the closest think in my mind to film as far as video is concerned. WDAY still gets all their commercials on 1" and then dumps them onto MII, which goes into the automation. a computer controls a robotic arm which place the tapes in 1 of 3 MII decks, and places the spots on the air, with perfect timing. Production uses Beta SP AFAIK, and they do have DVC Pro capability.When those 1" ampex machines go in the dump, guess whose going in after them 
Josh
Posted by Phil Connolly (Member # 465) on 08-21-2001, 03:57 AM:
Many DVC-Pro/DVCam Decks should be able to play back Mini-DV.Of you could submit your footage with, timecode in vision, on vhs. Then they could get back to you to tell you which bits they need and on what format. It could even be a AVI on a CD to go straight onto their NLE.
The timecode in vision is also a good way to make sure they pay for the footage, don't give them a clean copy till you get your money, thats if your charging.
The XL-1 is easily good enough for broadcast, I've seen lot's of stuff broacast in the UK shot on this camera. Still I hope the XL-2 can do true 16:9.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-21-2001, 04:55 PM:
I'm not sure if the DV format would support the extra resolution needed by true 16:9. Can it?
Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 08-22-2001, 01:33 AM:
I've read articles and promos that say it can, or will become the standard in around five years. Certain DV camera heads can do 480i, but 1080i requires post-processing.
I know that Francis Ford Coppola's new movie academy is using mini DV on Avid digital editing consoles. I'd imagine that the Avid system should break out of the movie industry before long.Or has it already?
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-22-2001, 01:55 AM:
You can get the real AVID on the Mac platform and I believe the PC as well. Cheap it certainly is not.
Posted by Phil Connolly (Member # 465) on 08-22-2001, 03:01 AM:
True 16:9 in the UK just uses different shaped pixels, but the same resolution as 4:3 overall. Many 16:9 broadcasts are shot using a camera with a 4:3 CCD and anamorphic lens.
Or their are DV cameras like the Sony DSR500-WSP, which record on DVCam (same data as miniDV) and have a 16:9 CCD, when you switch to 4:3 on this camera you actually loose horizontal resolution.
Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 08-22-2001, 10:32 PM:
Is anyone familiar with the Ampex ACR-automatic cassette reproducer/
recorder? This is probably an early videocassette machine but the
cassettes used 2 inch wide tape. The cassettes were easy to dismantle
& replenish with tape.The machine had a vertical changer carousel
which held the cassettes positioned between a pair of video
record/playback mechanisms which had transverse rather than helical
video heads.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-22-2001, 11:57 PM:
With the future of DV photography definitely going 16:9, it is pretty frustrating if you want to buy a DV camera today. I have been really tempted to pick up a Canon GL-1 (my pockets are not deep enough at the moment for the XL-1), but I hesitate on spending over $2000 on a camcorder if the thing is already on the verge of being obsolenscent/obsolete.The computer/electronics industry needs to get off their duffs and get more true 16:9 CCDs made, and made at higher actual resolutions. Many people are now expecting their digital video camera to function also as a digital still camera. That might be asking a bit much for doing both jobs without watering down either video or still work.
One thing that should be a requirement for just about any DV camera, be it consumer or professional, is a 3 CCD array. One single composite CCD just sucks. And they should do 3 CCD arrays for many digital still cameras. I have seen only a handful of digital cameras and large format digital backs utilize 3 CCDs. ALL professional digital video cameras employ 3CCD array systems to process the Red, Green and Blue components of the video signal separately. The color quality and sharpness of the video is always going to turn out better with a 3CCD array than it will with only one single chip trying to do the entire job.
So basically I guess what I would like to see is a good digital camcorder sporting true progressive scan 16:9 3CCD chip arrays. A nice supertelephoto flourite lens (or even better yet, interchangeable lens housings) would be nice too. What would be really great is if such a camera could come out below the $3,000 or even $2,000 price barrier.
Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 08-23-2001, 12:40 PM:
This is what I think Matthew is talking about:
http://www.lionlmb.org/quad/acr225.html
Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-23-2001, 01:07 PM:
WAGA in Atlanta had 2 ACR's in Master Control. They were always jamming and eating carts. It finally got so bad that spots aired during the 6pm news (big money--we were first in the market) were re-dubbed onto a separate 2", or later, 1" tape.My last job in TV, after the phase-out of film, was in commercial operations. Had to watch every single commercial that came through the place. Yucck. I also had the fun of loading ACR carts with 2" tape. We had a small machine that wound them to whatever length that we wanted.
Stuff like this kinda burned me out. I left the industry soon after.
Another station that I worked in had an RCA 2" cart machine that ran the carts around a big oval track. Somewhere deep inside it lurked a 2" tape machine. I can still hear the video head running to this day... not constantly, of course!
I have a few 3/4" dubs of 2" video that was made in the late 70's. If I turn up the audio during the silent commercial break slugs, I can faintly hear the whine of the video head. Could possibly bring on a flashback if I listened long enough...
Our local station has a nice S-VHS industrial machine hooked through their switcher in the newsroom. They encourage viewers to bring them their video coverage of "news." Some of it would qualify for one of those funniest video shows on TV. They only ask that the tape you submit be recorded at SP "standard" speed. They still get things at EP, though. These they dont use.
There was a fire on the riverfront here in Asheville 6-7 years ago that devastated 3 blocks of real eatate that was built in the early 1900's.
The station made a video available to the viewers of this fire. Most of the footage was viewer-submitted, with
on-screen credit! I dont think they can do any other consumer formats.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-23-2001, 03:34 PM:
I kind of agree with Josh's statement about 1" format. Its really a bullett proof format that still exists in almost all stations today. Its was the most reliable format in the stations I worked at, 2" Quad and 3/4" were the most trouble plagued formats.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Joe Grace (Member # 341) on 08-23-2001, 04:46 PM:
Joe, Which Avid software are you talking about? I believe that All of avids Real Time editing systems are not available for mac, Avid DS isnt and its more of a hardware thing then a software thing. Now if avid cinema is more your thing then that is available for mac :-)
Joe
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-23-2001, 04:52 PM:
Hell I don't know I've never really researched it. FInal Cut Pro is plenty fine for me (although you can't edit 35mm film with it, unless you just go by timecode). And with the Matrox card FCP is really fast. I have no need to research Avid, I just know that they make products for the Mac.
Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 08-23-2001, 11:13 PM:
I wonder if there is a digital reel to reel videotape format.
I assume that some TV stations use rewritable DVD equipment.
Pioneer used to make a rewritable laser video disc recorder.
It used 12 inch rewritable laser video discs enclosed in
a cartridge. The machine was sort of like the RCA CED videodisc players. I am wondering if you can connect one to your computer
& use it as sort of a 12 inch rewritable CD-ROM drive.
Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-23-2001, 11:41 PM:
Mark G.:My first station job ran all spots, and some shows on a threesome of Sony VO-2850 3/4" monsters. Talk about tapes jamming... Downstairs, we recorded the 3/4" tapes off of 2" originals with a pair of VO-2600's.
The station owner bought thousands of used KCA-60 tapes from Studio Tape Exchange in NYC. You saw alot of wrinkles on our air, not to mention TBC errors galore.
When our studio-to-transmitter microwave would die, I would drive the 19 miles with a load of pre-recorded programming to the transmitter site and load them in another 2850 that was there for such an emergency. At least we stayed on the air. You can imagine what our signal looked like.
There was a standing joke at the time:
Tune your TV to a dead UHF channel.
"You are watching Channel 17 on a good day!"
I still have a Sony VO-1200 player, a VO-1600 recorder, (yes, they do still work,)
and a Sony BVU-2008 that I use for the 300 or so master copies that I have.
I dubbed everything to VHS recently. Now, the 3/4" just sits there taking up space.
Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 08-24-2001, 12:49 AM:
the Avid M1000 system was a series of NuBus cards, software and a set of Mitsubishi(?) DiamondScan monitors for 68040 based Macintoshes (Quadras) that came available around 1993 or so. I clearly remember to this day getting to mess around on a setup belonging to a friend of the family (Pediatrician by day/video hobbiest by night-he could afford such toys). Bearing in mind that this was 1993, it was amazing to me to see not one but TWO 9 GIG scsi-2 hard drives tied to his Quadra 950 tied to these gorgeous monitors. I was amazed enough by the crude little 160 pixel 10 frame quicktime clips that had just come to be the norm on macs at the time. To see that quadra crank out BROADCAST quality FULL SCREEN video was almost unfathomable. I believe it was a series of three cards, one was a motion jpeg card, one was a duel monitor card, and the third was a SCSI-2 raid type high speed hard disk interface.
very cool, VERY expensive at the time.. i think he said the system not incuding the mac cost approx $20,000. He still has it, i think.
-sean
(at this guy's house was also the first time i ever saw a Laserdisc player back in 1985. It was a top loading Maganvox. I vowed to have one of my own some day and finally did get a pioneer cld-990 in 1992)