Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: This is very depressing.. can't something be done?

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Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 09-04-2001, 06:52 PM:

Kodachrome 25 Discontinuance
Dear Customer:

In April 2001, Kodak announced plans to discontinue Kodachrome 25 Color Reversal (slide) Film later this year. Significant advances in technology have allowed Kodak to create other products that can be used for these applications.

As a result of the company's plans, Kodachrome 25 Movie Film 7267 will also be discontinued in the future. Depending on the demand from customers, we anticipate that supplies will be available for approximately one year.

We will continue to offer Kodachrome 40 Movie Film in 16mm and Super 8 format. And recently we've increased the availability of Super 8 mm film products to include the popular KODAK Vision 200T Color Negative Film along with Kodachrome 40 Movie Film, EASTMAN EKTACHROME Film (VNF), EASTMAN PLUS-X Reversal Film (black and white), and EASTMAN TRI-X Reversal Film (black and white).

As a company, we remain committed to the Super 8 mm format and to the unique look Kodak film provides. We apologize if our discontinuance of Kodachrome 25 Movie Film creates a hardship for you, but we want to give you this advance notice so we can help you determine which Kodak products would provide the most satisfying alternative.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
William G. Tompkins, Jr.
Chief Marketing Officer and Vice President
Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company

K-25 has this clarity and color rednering that even K40 and K64 can't even come close to. I haven't come across anything else that is comparable. I wish this wasn't happening. This is so sad. :-(

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-05-2001, 07:43 AM:

Many people at Kodak are sad too

, but the small volumes of KODACHROME 25 film sold worldwide (compared to more popular Kodak films) just could not justify continuing to make this film.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-05-2001, 09:58 AM:

Of course Sean, Even Kodak is secretly planning the new version of K-25 that is all digital. Manufacturing film IS costly to do after all. Be sure to buy several years worth and keep it frozen.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-05-2001, 10:14 AM:

If the unexposed film is kept in it's original sealed containers, it should keep well for several years in a freezer:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/storage.shtml

Please take another look at the other films in the KODACHROME and EKTACHROME product lines. Although nothing quite matches KODACHROME 25, you may find a film that meets your needs.

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 09-05-2001, 12:51 PM:

The closest thing I have found to Kodachrome 25 is K64 underexposed by 1.5 stops. There was just something about the grain structure of K25 though that the underexposed K64 still lacks.
John, you're right about storing in the freezer. As a matter of fact, I have noticed that K25 would 'season' itself after several years of cold storage. The colors and sharpness of k25 that was cold stored and a year or so out of expiration seemed to have that much of a nicer look to it.. blacker blacks, and smoother color rendering. I went online to several camera shops around the net a few months ago and stocked up on about 50 rolls of k25 slide film. That should last me :-)

As for the declining sales, How long can we expect kodak to continue making Kodachrome of any kind? from the looks of all of this, it looks like Kodak is trying to kill Kodachrome all together.
I mean, for the past few years one really had to dig through all of the Ektachrome ads to find the Kodachrome listings, and the 16mm Kodachrome wasn't even listed online with the rest of the Ektachrome. It was only listed in the motion picture reversal film .pdf file near the last page. Given the quiet advertising, it really wasn't surprising that a LOT of people in the past several years didn't think Kodak was even MAKING Kodachrome anymore - movie or slide film. It just seems odd that a huge corporation could 'loose' one of their products like that. Why not push it more? It has already proven to carry some traits that no other reversal medium can lay claim to (i.e., lack of fading/archival purposes) Not to mention that resulting pictures are simply beautiful. What is it about Kodachrome that has resulted in it's decline?

Does kodak have any plans to offer Kodachrome 64 in the 16mm format? With only Kodachrome 40 available in 16mm, photographers loose the ability to shoot daylight without a filter. (which was IMHO what Kodachrome is best suited for) Also, Because Kodak was offering 16mm k25 re-perforated for John Schwind to sell to double-8mm movie consumers, we loose the ability to shoot double-8mm in the daylight as well. Even in the event that Kodak will not offer Kodachrome 64 in 16mm, will Kodak still perforate Kodachrome 40 into double-8mm for John Schwind?.

Sorry for the long winded post..

-sean

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-05-2001, 01:26 PM:

Sean --- since KODACHROME film's primary market is still slides and transparencies, the motion picture "tail" can't always wag the larger "dog". Other film types that are easier and more convenient to process have gained in popularity, as their quality has greatly improved over the years. Future plans depend upon customer needs and the marketplace.

I passed your comments along to others in a better position than I to respond. Here is what they said:

"Kodak does offer this product already in both super 8 and 16mm formats. The catalog number is 5019294 for 7268 which is a 50 ft. 1 edge super 8 cartridge. There is also catalog number 5053335 which is 8268 which is 1 edge super 8 cartridge 50ft with processing. In 16mm, there is catalog number 5053327 which is K40 in a 100 ft. load, which includes processing.

We are in the process of updating our catalogs and online information so that it includes all of the product listings. Part of the problem is that folks may be going to the consumer website to find Kodachrome, Ektachrome movie film...not the motion picture site."

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-05-2001, 04:15 PM:

Sean, Have you tried Fuji Velvia? It gives results that are similar to Kodachrome 25 but with even sharper resolve power. Also similar contrast ratio and really saturated dark blacks. It is claimed in fact that it has the highest resolving power of any of the transparency films made and you get an extra stop to boot as its a true ASA 50. I shoot it in 4X5, and 6X9 and I always get great results. I've tried just about all the Fuji and Kodak transparency films and just keep going back to Velvia. No "special" processing needed either as it is compatable with other standard Kodak processes. Really impressive, grainless Ilfochrome enlargements can be made up to 30 X 40 inches from a 4X5 transparency.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-05-2001, 10:03 PM:

Mark said: "Sean, Have you tried Fuji Velvia?"

Heresy!!! You really know how to hurt a guy.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-05-2001, 11:58 PM:

Hi John,
Not trying to hurt anyone here...just suggesting to Sean a film that DOES come close to the look of Kodachrome 25 in overall appearance and IS finer grain than 25 is. In some cases I think it is actually better than 25 is, plus the extra stop of speed you get is helpful at times. I don't know if they even make it in 35mm though. The new Ektachromes are good too but they're not Velvia. I'll post some pictures on my Photopoint Site of K25 VS Velvia. The unfortunate thing is that my Scanner probably doesn't do either them justice, but you can still tell a difference between them.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 09-06-2001, 08:50 AM:

Mark -

Yes, I have used fuji Velvia. It is indeed a very nice reversal film. As an added bonus, It is easily obtainable in 100' bulk loads which is great for use in my Bell & Howell Eyemo move cam.

There is just something about the Kodachrome chemisty that sets the resulting images apart from any E6 reversal. While is is not as noticable when scanned or duplicatd, it IS noticable when projected on a screen, which is why Kodachrome was always my film stock of choice. I hope Kodak will remain committed to the remaining Kodachrome emulsions. They will always have a customer here.

-sean

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-06-2001, 10:56 AM:

I don't think I've ever shot Kodachrome 25, but K40 certainly is magnificent film. Projecting an original K40 film in Super 8mm with a very souped up projector/lamphouse at a film festival I used to run even fooled the general faculty at the university into saying "oh no way that was Super 8, that HAD to have been 16mm" with one professor thinking we had shot in 16 and printed to 35.

It does require special processing by a Kodak lab to obtain those results though. Just sending the film out to any generic lab would return a film that looked a bit bland.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-06-2001, 04:27 PM:

Sean said: "Yes, I have used fuji Velvia. It is indeed a very nice reversal film. As an added bonus, It is easily obtainable in 100' bulk loads which is great for use in my Bell & Howell Eyemo move cam."

Have you tried KODAK EKTACHROME 100D Color Reversal Film 5285?:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/reversal/5285.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/reversal/tech5285.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/newsletters/inCamera/april2000/bennett.shtml

This film is specifically designed for motion picture use. The color reproduction is fantasticly vibrant!

Posted by John Schulien (Member # 215) on 09-06-2001, 06:00 PM:

What baffles me is why Kodak has been hiding 16mm Kodachrome from the market. I've scoured the Kodak web pages, and, unless I've just missed it, I can't find any reference to 16mm Kodachrome.

Following the Kodak web site, I go to:

Motion Picture Main > Products > Camera Films

and find information about a wide range of color negative and reversal films, but Kodachrome is only listed in the Super 8 category, not the 16mm category, even though 16mm Kodachrome is advertised on a number of camera shop web sites. I wonder how many people have visited Kodak's web site, failed to find 16mm Kodachrome, and had no idea that it existed and was an option.

So my question is, why is it that Kodak has practically zero information on their web site about one of the most distinctive and finest products the company has to offer? Nothing in the catalog. No data sheets. No information in the downloadable catalog PDFs. No ordering information. On the one hand, I can appreciate that K25 sales have been declining. On the other hand, if a film student or amateur filmmaker visits the Kodak site to find out what 16mm films are available, and doesn't find any mention of Kodachrome, how is that filmmaker supposed to even know that the film still exists and is available?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-07-2001, 06:58 AM:

Given that Kodachrome 25 is sold process-paid (in the UK at least), how long will Kodak continue to process it? I mean, if a K25 fan does rush out and buy several hundred rolls to stockpile (plus a freezer to store them in), will he or she have to use them up by a certain deadline or risk not being able to get them processed?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-07-2001, 12:41 PM:

16mm KODACHROME movie film is listed in the on-line catalog:
http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/catalog/colorRev.pdf

As I said earlier in this thread: "Future plans depend upon customer needs and the marketplace."