------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

I am numb.

Paul G. Thompson

Anyones theatres shutting down?

 

Let's care about our citizens, and our country.

Let's care about the victims and those who are doing their very best to save as many lives as possible.

Paul

Remember the thousands of innocent people that died today, or will carry the physical and emotional scars of this depraved and senseless act forever.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

I left NYC thismorning at 6A.m. as I usually do and drove to my office in Connecticut. I can not get back into the city tonight as Manhattan has been sealed off. Only emergency vehicles are going in and out.

It is 2PM here and I just received confirmation that my daughter is safe. So all my family members are accounted for. Thank God.
I don't know how many people died today but my guess is thousands.

I believe this was an attack on America and on the liberties that we enjoy as americans. I do put it right up there with Pearl Harbor.

Judging by the reactions of those people who I have spoken to today, is this has united the people of the United States. Mass, Ct., NJ., and Pa have sent emergency personnel to help with the injured and allow others to get some rest. People from Nebraska are sending refrigerated trucks with Plasma and blood.( NY ran out this morning before 12 noon)I will donate a pint later this afternoon at a hospital in Danbury, Ct.

Tent Hospitals are being constructed on the pier's around Manhattan as well in the parks. Doctors are coming in from around the country to help our citizens.

Make no mistake these terrorist's will be caught and will be executed.

Thanks for all of your good wishes. Say a prayer tonight.
 

To use John McCain's words (and they have been echoed by many other US Senior Officials), "...this is an act of war."

I know this is unimportnat, but theatres are closing down, but not nescessarily of their own will. Our theatre closed today because General Growth Properties is shutting down all 145 of its malls for the day.
 

How terribly terribly sad these events are. It is probably too early to point fingers, but the Trade Center was a previous target of bin Laden.

I haven't felt so much revulsion watching something happen since the fire at Waco. The sight of those buildings collapsing into rubble and knowing that there were probably hundreds if not thousands of people inside was horrendous. My prayers go out to them and their families.

Indiscriminate bombing and retaliation against an entire group of people, women and children included, isn't an answer. Even finding Osama bin Laden and the people responsible is only the first part of an answer. Ultimately, the underlying situation causing the unrest must be solved.

Things like this scare me. In my opinion, the US should be seen as a just mediator and peacekeeper. If we had been seen as such by the Palestinians, this attack wouldn't have happened. How have things been allowed to go so wrong for long enough that events like this happen?

Hidden in the news is a mention of a suicide bomber going against one of the major Afghan opposition leaders. AHMED SHAH MASOOD, the Afghan opposition leader, has been killed by suicide bombers posing as journalists. Afghanistan’s opposition leaders accused Osama bin Laden and Pakistan of masterminding the attack. Things like this tell me that bin Laden isn't mainstream even in the Arab world.

Our institution is staying open, but we are recommending to our Canadian visitors that they leave right away. The inbound bridge and tunnel traffic from Windsor is closed and outbound traffic can only be classified as "good luck" and is open to Canadians only.

Ford, DaimlerChrysler and GM world headquarters are closed, Interstate 94 is closed at the airport, major buildings in downtown Detroit are closing, etc.

 

The US has a long history of supporting fascism -- the generals in Guatemala, Suharto in Indonesia, Pinochet in Chile, the "dirty war" in Argentina. Not to mention "friendly dictators" (Somoza, Mobutu, Noriega, Saddam Hussein) and "freedom fighters" (contras, ARENA, UNITA, the KLA). US-owned Big Business was all too eager to do business with the Nazis.

"Nuke Bagdad (sic) and another Arab city"? THAT will be the start of World War III.

FWIW my father was in WWII and my ex-brother-in-law was in Vietnam.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

Of course, if someone living here doesn't like the United States, they can always just get the hell out.
 

Been too busy watching Rambo movies? Been too busy getting brainwashed by all the right-wing bullies and pro-war propaganda on TV?

1970: Nixon orders the secret bombing of Cambodia. That leads to protests all over and a state-sponsored massacre at Kent State.

1983: Reagan sends in the Army and Marines to overthrow a left-wing gov't in Grenada.

1986: Reagan orders Libya bombed in an attempt to kill Qaddafi. The bombs kill some of Qaddafi's family instead.

1989: Bush sends in the Army to overthrow Noreiga and kill thousands of Panama citizens. Noriega was our "Friendly Dictator" -- or was he?

1990: Bush sends the US military to the Middle East to defend Kuwait -- a monarchy invaded by Iraq.

1991: US military carpet-bombs Iraq and buries Iraqi troops in mass graves.

1993: US Army incinerates the Branch Davidians at Waco. That act of state-sponsored mass murder led directly to the Oklahoma City bombing 2 years later.

BTW, I saw Apocalypse Now Redux just 2 days ago. That movie was co-written by a right-wing screenwriter who went on to direct the "Commies are coming" movie Red Dawn. Why is that important? Red Dawn was Timothy McVeigh's favorite movie -- and Red Dawn was released when Reagan was in power.

I got rid of my TV 3 years ago because cable cost me $45/month and I only used it 2 hours a week. Am I glad I do not have TV now!

I suppose you would hold the same opinion if you happened to be on one of those doomed airliners.
 

I have had friends and aquaintances with families in Israel (Jewish), Lebanon (Christian), Iran (Diest), Saudi Arabia (Moslem), and many other countries. The U.S. "involvement" in those areas isn't always looked upon kindly. A friend who I went to high school with taught at the American School in Isfahan and Tehran, Iran and had the good sense to leave as the shah was being deposed. The stories he brought back of the U.S backed shah's repression of his people were intense.

We are fed news in the U.S. that usually isn't the whole story. The alternate views may not be to our liking, and may be just as biased in another direction as our own news, but most intellegent people can synthesize an understanding of the issues if they listen to both sides closely. At least we have some access through the internet. For an alternate view on Palestine think of yourself as an uneducated Arab shepherd peacefully tending a flock in the 1930s and having your children grow up into this mess.click here

I've been ambivilent about U.S. support for Israel ever since I learned that a passing acquaintence of my father was assasinated by Israel's secret police. That person held dual Canadian U.S. citizenship and was working on a project that the Israeli military felt was a danger to the security of the country. Even the U.S. government has had run-ins with Israeli spies.

You can get some news articles on the middle east situation here

I'll fight for the U.S. with my last breath, but that doesn't stop me from thinking our leaders have made some stupid and short-sighted mistakes. Things should never have been allowed to degenerate to this point, and I blame both the Republicans and Democrats equally for their share in the hate.

 

Oh now I get it, those 50,000 people working in those buildings had it coming because of the US's involvement in another country.

"For an alternate view on Palestine think of yourself as an uneducated Arab shepherd peacefully tending a flock in the 1930s and having your children grow up into this mess."

Yes just imagine you are going into a building to work on tuesday morning and a 767 flies into you building and kills you.
Or if you don't like that one...
Just imagine that mommy and daddy won't be coming home again, ever, because some religious zealot crashed an airplane into the building where they work.

Why do you guys think that everyone else in the world is an innocent but US citizens are not? What did those people in those buildings do to warrant being butchered by some religious idiots

Charles are you in college or are you of college age?

This is truely amazing

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut http://www.muellersatomics.com/

HOWEVER, I do not agree with the tone of Charles's post, one that suggests (especially in his first post) that we should not be outraged by this horrible act of terrorism. That we are only getting what we deserve and should just take our medicine so to speak. Bullshit. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, as Ghandi said. While I believe that we will need to retaliate to the fullest extent of our ability, we should strive to keep civilian casualties to a mininum in any of our operations that may occur because of this.
 

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

Besides the obvious that stands out, has anyone noticed that a lot of the officals giving interviews say "the people that did it were smart and it took a lot of planning and funding" It floors me that they thing this. am I off base here? I dont think it took a lot brains at all, we let anyone in the country and pay airport security $3.35...
how hard could it have been....

 

I hear price for gasoline is up to $5 in Oklahoma. It rose from $1.27 here yesterday to $1.75 this afternoon and is expected to continue to rise.

United Artists shut down their operations today "until further notice". What about other theater chains?

On the closing theatres thing, like I said our theatre closed because GGP closed all its malls, but I don't think Carmike as a whole has shut down.
 

"For an alternate view on Palestine think of yourself as an uneducated Arab shepherd peacefully tending a flock in the 1930s and having your children grow up into this mess."

and your response of:
Yes just imagine you are going into a building to work on tuesday morning and a 767 flies into you building and kills you.
Or if you don't like that one...
Just imagine that mommy and daddy won't be coming home again, ever, because some religious zealot crashed an airplane into the building where they work.

Of course there can be no rational justification for the terrible suicide attacks. The death toll of innocents is too horrendous to contemplate. The scenes of the disaster are nausiating and I can't get over those poor employees and rescue workers being killed like that. I've been in the building myself at various times, so the idea that it could have been me isn't so far off the mark.

My point was, and still is, that there IS justification for residents of the mideast to be angry and upset with U.S. policy. Anyone with any empathy for others can understand that, disagreeable as it might be under present conditions.

Reacting with a "loose cannon" scattergun reprisal will only escalate the hatred and give false justification for similar attacks. We have to nail those responsible and fast.

I wouldn't be surprised if part of that involves taking out both the taliban government and Saddam, and I wouldn't so much as blink an eye in trying to defend either. However, advocating another genocidal purge is not what anyone should be suggesting now and I wish you would focus your anger more tightly. Directed response can be an awesome power that gives a clear signal to others. Killing huge numbers of innocents only strengthens the resolve of enemies, as these bastards are about to find out.

Also closed were the Angelika Film Center, Film Forum and all other theaters below 14th Street in Manhattan.

Related story: Big Trouble and Collateral Damage have been postponed indefinitely because they have related plotlines. Big Trouble (Touchstone) was to have opened 9/21; Collateral Damage (WB) -- with Arnold Schwarzenegger -- was to have opened 10/5.

I do not however, support reprisals on innocent Afghans or any other Middle Eastern/Central Asian ethnic group. I'm sure that most American's share this view.
 

In the haste for retribution, we have to remember that it was largely the Afghani people who brought the huge Soviet empire to its knees by destroying the morale of the invading soviet troops, thus bringing the soviet military to odds with the soviet leaders and setting the stage for revolution. We have these people to at least partially thank for the end of the cold war. For us to try to "nuke" them would not only be stupid because of the huge mountains, the Hindu Kush, but would be the height of ingratitude to a people that just wanted to be left alone.

I have a little knowledge of the culture there because I happen to think that Idries Shah, whose family resided there for over 1,000 years, was one of the great philosophical and religious minds of our times. Outside of Shah's books and tapes about the Sufis, he wrote a novel published in 1986 called Kara Kush, detailing the war of the people against the invading soviets, as lead by the Afghani Adam Durany.

The taliban government, from what I have read, is a reactionary puppet of the religious ultra-right wing and an outgrowth of Pakistan's influence and military support. I would expect fallout from Pakistan, and certainly from Iraq, but little opposition otherwise to the dismantling of this government.

I just remembered that 3 years ago, I installed a video projector on the 38th floor of the World Trade Center. I spent most of my time looking out the window.

I never thought I would see those buildings come down. It was inconcevable.

It's so sad to think that 10,000 people may be dead. But let's not forget that millions survived the attack.
 

As a Desert Storm Veteran, how dare you condone this attack MR. CHARLES EVERETT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HOW DARE YOU!
ARE YOU A SUPPORTER OF TERRORISM?! DO YOU NEED TO BE TURNED INTO THE AUTHORITIES!

And what about the ragheads jumpin' for joy in the Mid East!

I am a little short on time right now, but tomorow I will write a short entry about the history of the Mid-East.

Anyhow, if anyone should be blamed for this conflict, it should be the British Government--who played Arab against Jew during the Mandate and, along with the French, divided the Ottoman Empire up to suite their own political aspirations before screwing everything up and turning the Mandate over to the UN in 1947. The UN partitioned what was then Palastine Mandate into both Jewish and Arab states that would be economically dependant on one another. The Jews accepted, and the Arabs rejected--vowing to kill every Jew. Hence the 1948 War of Independance. What the Palestinians now want is what they rejected in 1948!

More tomorow when I have time to write!

GOD BLESS THE USA! Lets teach those ragheads a lesson!!!--but w/o nukes that will destroy the whole world!
 

I hope to God you are a board troll, and don't actually think what you spewd forth..

This attack is not our fault.. It is not the fault of the British.. It is not the fault of Israel. This attack is the fault of people who think they can resort to terror and attack innocent people to get thier way. The world will only be safe when we have rid it of those people.

We have been attacked. We are now at war. We will win that war.
 

That's the first laugh I have had in two days, someone accusing Hollywood of being right-wing.

Just like WWII, the worlds problems wasn't our (USA) problem, because it didn't happen here. The kamakazi tactics are from the same war.

Charles, didn't that lefty Carter ban the production of the neutron bomb?

I have more trust in this President to take names and kick ass than the last two. I hope the peace lovers will be shouted down for once and the press will back the President.

Dennis

 

Here in the UK we have been shocked numb by the events in the US, and our thoughts and prayers are with the victims, their family's, and especially the emergency services, many of whom died trying to save others. Those poor passengers in the jets had no choice, the workers in the WTC building had no choice, those fire crew and police knew what they were getting into, and the risks involved and many of them paid with their life, trying to save others lifes.

They died Heroe's

I am back in New York tonight, I drove in this afternoon as was allowed to cross into Manhattan. I arrived home at 3PM. I went to the roof of my building and saw the smoke and dust rise above where the twin towers used to reside.

I went to the phone and listened to the messages:

Brendan Dooley 36 Missing (One of my Little League players in the 70's) Father and Mother were childhood friends. Worked on 92nd floor tower 1

Richard Gabriel Died in Plane crash going to San Francisco, Friend who I use to play softball with in a bar league 70's & 80's.

Sally wife of Niel Holstein, worked on 102nd Floor Tower 1. Niel was a member of my oldest son's wedding party 1990. Known him since 1975. Wife is missing.

Bill O'Boyle New York Fire Department missing as building collapsed tower one. Godfather of My Grandson Griffin.

There will be more I am sure, but please keep these and all human beings in your thoughts and prayers.

I am angry, and as I think most of you know I am a former Marine Corps "Grunt" as Paul would say.

I love America, I believe in our constitution, my family had members in the American Revolution, The War of 1812, The Civil War, World War I, World War II ( We missed Korea), Cuban Missle Crisis and Viet Nam.

I will not judge others...but please don't mis-judge me. Semper Fi and God Bless America.

 

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder,Two brothers torn apart by Chaos,while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb'' The  third  big war will begin when the big city is burning'- Nostradamus 1654 .....on  the  11 day of the 9 month that...two metal birds would crash into two tall  statues...in the new city..and the world will end soon after" __"From the  book of Nostradamus"
 

All I can say concerning your remark is "GET A LIFE". That's more than a good friend of mine and also the daughter of another good friend have. Both were in the Trade Center yesterday, and have not been heard fron since. Their only political crime was that they were just going to work. This is not the time for political statements. I think prayer would be more appropriate.
 

Another interpretation of Nostradamus's predictions in light of the New York bombing - from author John Hogue:
"This is some of what I understand is in the prophecies of Nostradamus concerning present and near future events. He spoke of a new type of world war to come; one using surprise and ambush. A rogue leader from the Mideast will trigger it. He is a terrorist, code named in the prophecies as "Mabus" or the "Third Antichrist." This man will be one of the first to fall in his war. He could become a symbolic martyr for terrorists who will soak the world with blood for 27 years. Nostradamus spoke of the great new city made of high "hollow mountains" near the garden of the world. The state of New Jersey, from whose shore one can view the great hollow mountains of New York City, is known as “The Garden State.” In two of Nostradamus’ prophecies a thing his 16-century mind can only call “it” cuts a path to these hollow mountains. They are then seized and boiled in a cauldron...Over four centuries ago, Nostradamus may have seen those great hollow mountains hit by a huge, "scattered flame." He implied that the flame could not be put out and the smoke and debris would rise and ferment in boiling clouds, as if they were “plunged in a vat.” What is next for us? If my interpretations are correct we will soon know who the perpetrator — this Third Antichrist — is. If “Mabus” stands as an anagram for Saddam Hussein or Usama Bin Laden or someone we have yet to uncover, look for his death very soon in a retaliatory attack. If a more balanced American foreign policy in Mideast affairs is not forthcoming after the Antichrist falls, then the war is only beginning. America and her allies will endure almost thirty years of terror bombings and catastrophic loss of life... I would like to add that there are a number of spurious and bogus prophecies of Nostradamus surfacing concerning “York’s” destruction, etc. These frauds are mixing lines out of context from several authentic Nostradamus quatrains with phrases that are complete fabrications. Do not believe them. A bulletin on the REAL quatrains that might concern the New York and Pentagon attack will be forthcoming."

Shortly after it all started, I received a call from the guy who owns the art cinema about 60 miles south of me. He wanted to know if I was going to be open the evening of the tragedy. Of course I was going to be open. Running a theater is what I do and what most of us do. As with pretty much everybody here, I can all tell stories of being sick with no replacement, and lying under the projector, trying not to pass out between change-overs. I’ve watched a parent die and ran the show the next day. I had to have my cell phone taken away from me in the ER so I wouldn’t call the theater and make sure the help got there. And so on . . . . All that pales in comparison to the least affected NYer. If they can look at a skyline missing it’s two front teeth, punched out in the most inhumane and deadly fashion, then I can turn on the neon open sign, pop some popcorn, and offer people a place to be for a couple hours without live coverage blasting from every corner. I can't be in there helping to remove rubble, but I can be part of life going on in my community. It's the best I can do.

Sorry for making this such a long post, but . . . .
This is a time when we must remember that most people are good people -- no matter what they wear on thier heads. They want to live, work, watch their kids grow up, laugh, and die naturally. They don't want to kill anybody. Many good people have died in NY, in a disater that is too big for me to get my mind around. Killing more good people who are no more terorists than you or I solves nothing. It never has. Governments that condone terrorism see their civilian populations as expendables -- killing them has no effect. These same populations have no control over what their government does. In many of these countries the population is kept starved to make them more compliant -- especially when the cameras are rolling. We are all angry. That doesn't mean that thousands more must die.
 

This is for you and your loved ones lost in this disaster--and everyone else who has been affected ~

A very popular Jewish/Israeli folk song "Next Year ~ Bashana Haba'ah"

Soon the day will arrive when we will be together,
And no longer will we live in fear.
And the children will smile without their wondering whether,
on that day dark new clouds will appear.

Wait and see, wait and see what a world it can be
If we care, if we share, you and me.

And the vines they will grow, the tender leavesw will blossom,
and the fruit of our hands will be sweet.
And the winds that bring change will clear away the ashes,
And a new world of peace we shall greet. Wait and see...

Next year we will sit on the porch and count migrating birds.
Children on vacation will play catch between the house and the fields.
You will yet see, how good it will be next year.
Red grapes will ripen till the evening, and will be served chilled to the table.
And languid winds will carry to the crossroads old newspapers and a cloud.
Next year we will spread out our hands towards the radiant light.
A white heron like a light will spread her wings and within them the sun will rise.
 

O-Jerusalem by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre
1972 Simon and Schuster

Lightning Out Of Israel
1967 The Associated Press

Swift Sword
about the June 1967 Six Day War
Assoicated Press (?)

Terror Out Of Zion by J. Bowyer Bell
1977 St. Martins Press

By Blood and Fire ~ 22 July 1946: The Attack On Jerusalem's King David Hotel by Thurston Clarke
1981 G.P. Putnam Sons

Shield of David: The Story Of Israels Armed Forces by Yigal Allon
1970 Random House

The Revolt by Menachem Begin
1951 Henry Schuman

Heritage Civilization and the Jews by Abba Eban
1984 Summit Books

 

I have had the experience of flying El-Al Israel Airlines nonstop from New York to Tel Aviv. I arrived in New York about 8hrs or so prior to my El-Al flight, and the El-Al terminal was closed. It was only after arguing with El-Al security and being subjected to a security check that they allowed me to rest my bones in their terminal, as I had no place to go. Preparations for boarding the plane started about 4hrs prior to departure. Several 4 X 8 card tables were lined up at which El-Al security interrogated each passenger as to their trip to Israel ~ why were you going, what business do you have, who do you know, do you have relatives, whats the duration of your stay, has a stranger asked you to carry on a bag or pass a message and on and on! Furthermore, all carry on bags were physically opened and searched. Besides this, all checked and transfered bags were opened and searched prior to being loaded into the cargo hold. Once on the plane, the majority of the flight attendants were male, and these were people who one would not dare mess with! There were also plain clothed security personnel on the flight. This flight was a fully loaded 747! And you wonder why El-Al is a secure airline!

One of the reasons that Israeli Intelligence has been successful and has pulled off exploits like the Eichmann kidnapping is because they relied on human intelligence! Many of the people who were instrumental in the early creation of Israeli Intelligence have written books--mostly about what went into the Eichmann kidnapping. But there are a great deal of other excellent books about Israeli Intelligence in print.

Ex N.Y. Mayor Ed Koch said today that we know what Arab countries support terrorism. He said that we should give them a max time period to coorporate or else we should launch a military actions. I agree with this, for one thing an Arab Muslim knows is words followed by actions. Arab Muslim Terrorist Fanatics are cowards--they are brave at sneak attacks, terror assults etc, but run like cowards at the first sight of a real one on one fight! Yes, we need to kick some Arab Muslim Fanatic Ass, but we also need to protect/secure our inner borders against further attacks that may come as a result of our conducting military action! We need to neutralize any weapons of mass destruction that these Arab Muslim Fanatics may possess!

I'm beginning to seriously wonder how much of this is actually related to Israel/Palestine though. I'm getting a distinct gut feeling that this whole attack might be much more related to Saddam and Iraq than anything else.

The currently popular mideast phrase "Never wound a king." fits exactly. The U.S. not only pummelled him and embarassed him during the Gulf War, but has kept reminding him how vulnerable he is, and how important air superiority is. If he had been killed or captured the conflict would be over. By allowing him to live, revenge has to be his greatest motivator.

Thinking of how spoiled kids can act in a family, getting other siblings to provoke or do dastardly deeds, I can't help but think that Saddam would be the instigator of such an attack against Uncle Sam (especially with the son of his old foe at the helm), using extremists as his foil, to avoid the immediate swift retribution he would otherwise get. Saddam has also been willing to try and use oddball tactics in his wars, which fits this scenario.

During all the time he has been denied air power over his own country, it has surely occurred to him how sweet it would be if he had air power over his tormentor, and his dreams of revenge have had ample time to develop. If I had to guess what his best wet dream was, this attack would come pretty darned close.

On a slightly different subject, I'm concerned how ponderous the political machanations are, trying to get everyone aligned before making a strike. Winning forces are able to make lightning decisions and lightning fast strikes. By being the big guy, and being worried about cries of "bully" in situations like this, we seem to put ourselves at a disadvantage. Here's hoping that what is being planned in retaliation is good.

Remember that during the Gulf War, the reason that saddam was not completely finished off was because of concern that the Alliance would fall apart--it was politics. During the war, yes, there were many--including Stormin' Norman--who wanted to finish off saddam but good!

Also keep in mind that the arabs are ruled by a band of wealthy fanatics "effendis" who keep their uneducated peasant populations in serfdom and can whip them into a political frenzy in a heartbeat! These are wealthy fanatics (oil) who do not care about life. They think that they have the world by the balls because of the Suez Canal and Oil. We should have let Israel keep the Suez Canal and we should go in militarily capture all of the oil and throw the arabs out of business. Also, some of the purest gold in the world comes from saudi.
Political assisination is common place in the arab world--they are a bunch of fanatic bastards!
 

Brendan Dooley is home he was in a hospital downtown NY (Beekman) Received stitches and is home with his two children and his wife.

Correction: Richard Gabriel was not on flight that went down in Pittsburgh. He was on Flight from Dulles to Los Angeles the plane that went into the second tower.

Keep the prayers going they worked for Brendan.

Semper Fi and God Bless.

This was an attack on symbols. The WTC is - was - a symbol of American prestige but the actual human victims were not the powerful, but mostly the middle managers, secretaries, and window washers. The Pentagon, symbol of U.S. military might, was damaged by people who were (probably) in no actual army armed only with cardboard cutters using civilian aircraft against the headquarters of the strongest military force in the world. How do you avenge this?
Look at the decades of violence in Ireland and the Middle East (to name just two) where every despicable act seems to be retribution for an earlier one, and few can recall the original reason behind all the carnage.

War? Against whom? A state of war can only exist between nations. No nation today would be insane enough to declare war on the USA and sponsoring these attacks would be an unmistakable declaration of war.

Assuming the mastermind is this Bin Laden person, one cannot declare war on a person. He is essentially a private entrepreneur. The multi billion dollar U.S military machine is useless against his type of organization. There are many many examples in recent history that demonstrate this.
Even if the Americans conquer a convenient target like Afghanistan or Libya, it would be as effective as invading Hawaii.
This is a "war" that can only be lost, like the "war" on drugs. A hasty revenge attack can only harden the resolve of the remaining terrorists, encourage more moderate people to become terrorists, and possibly bring international disrepute to the USA.
If, as I've already seen suggested by newsmen and politicians, basic freedoms are rescinded in the name of "security" then the terrorists have won a major victory.
This is not the time to try and justify this horror. I don't think it is the time to compound it with more horror either.
It may even be time to stop blaming people for hating - and time to look inward and try to understand what we are doing to be so hated.

Finally, my condolences and sympathy go to those who have lost so much this week.
 

I'd like to see retribution for this. Whether we attack or whether we catch & put the terrorist leaders on trial, some groups in America won't be satisfied.

I say we just focus on finding survivors, mourning the dead, cleaning up Manhattan, keeping our ecomomy alive, and maintaining our US patriotism.

I couldn't believe the price gouging here in the Twin Cities! Several gas stations raised prices to the five dollar range! Apparently, it was a ruse by operators to get more money off of this sensless tragedy They're telling anyone who got screwed into buying anything at outrageous prices to save recipts & the offending sellers will be punished.

Dan Rather said it best: "You will remember this day for as long as you live..."

we need to protect our country and our way of life. period. fuck them. ok, they started this we have to finish it I want to see them cheering and jumping for joy when we bomb the shit out of them. If there greatest reward is to meet Allah, then by god lets reward them all.

We have to send a message to countries that harbor, and supprt terrorists, it WILL NOT be tolerated. We are in a war on terrorism and I want to see retribution and payback. I hope and pray that our government takes swift and decisive action. and to anyone that thinks that this is wrong, THEY took it to this level if they want to operate on this level we should too. we have to protect ourselves and our country. Even if we dont get Bin laden we have to SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE, IF YOU FUCK WITH THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WE WILL INHIALTE YOU!. Im sorry if my views seem "wrong" or "extreme" I am deeply upset, saddened, and angry about this.

I hope every American hating Arab gets thier final precious reward.
 

Bin Laden on the other hand, and those others who are responsible should be subjected to every torture deviece ever known to man.
 

I just wanted to say that the thoughts and prayers of me and my family are with you all in this most tragic time in history.

This WAS an attack on American soil, but believe me...the rest of us (even us so far away from you) are hurting very badly also. This was an attack on civilization and democracy and will be avenged.

Australia has 90 ex-patriates missing...3 confirmed dead.

Here in Europe, flags have been on half pole since Wednesday. Today at noon, 2 minutes of silence was held by 800 million people all over Europe. Friday the 14th of September has been declared pan-European day of mourning by all EU nations and Russia.

New York and Washington may be in the US, but you have no idea how strong these events have affected the Danes and obviously sane people everywhere. For me, this felt like it happened in my own back-yard and I have a hard time trying to accept the facts.

Cheers, Thomas

Who is "THEY"?
Are you trying to tell me that every arab in the middle east started this?
I dont think so, and I dont think all of the innocent arabs in the middle east here should have to suffer the way thousands of innocent Americans have.
True, we have to send the message that this type of attack will not be tolerated, although innocent civilians here and in the middle east will die in the process, we should go after the political targets repsonsible, not every arab city.
We should also punish the countries that harbor and support them, but this "eye for an eye" mentality accomplishes nothing.
We should not do stupid things because we are pissed off.
 

My two cents: We don't have to kill all of Islam in order to rid the world of terrorism. We have to fundamentally change their minds. In the process of doing so we'll also have to do some changing of our own.

There is one pervasive reason for terrorism in the world. It is fundamentalist arrogance. It is the belief that any particular system of religion or government is the only legitmate path to either salvation or utopian statehood. Until all the world can all tolerate different points of view, the poison of terrorism and war will feed on this kind of ignorance.

Of course we have to go after the parties responsible for what happened in New York and Washington. We may have to cause an unthinkable amount of collateral damage in the process. But when all is said and done there will be no solution to intolerance, terror and war until the people of the world change their minds and learn to accept their differences.
 

What we need to do is take out the governments and groups that support such actions.. Governemnts in Afganistan and Iraq must go. We also need to look strongly at the governments of the Sudan and Algeria. Groups such as Islamic Jihad, Hamas, et al, must be eliminated too.
 

We have to do the same thing here.

I'm incredibly awestruck by the level of compassion that the American people are showing.

Did anybody else have increased attendance to Pearl Harbor? We went from 30 last friday at 8 pm, to almost 100 patrons tonight!
 

you are talking about throwing kids out of a movie, not intentionally taking the lives of millions of innocent people.
What I was referring to was the suggestion that we "nuke Bagdad and another Arab city every 24 hrs till the organizer of this cowardly act is turned over to us."

Did it ever occur to you that there might be some Arabs in the middle east that dont condone this action either?
This is not the way to go about doing things.
If we stoop to the level these terrorists did and startt killing off people because we are pissed off, that will make us no better than these terrorists and will only help us make new enemies.
I am going to stop discussing this with you, Sean, here on the forums since I was responding to Greg Mueller and he can defend his comments himself if he wants to.
If you want to discuss this further with me my e-mail address is jrhj76@excite.com and my aol screen name is Dexter Caldwell.
 

In addition to that, I ask you this, what is the difference between the 'terrorists' in Palestine and the terrorists in Belfast? I mean, other than the fact that one group is Muslim and one group is Christian.
 

Do you think the thousands of people who were celebrating this know the difference between a protestant and a catholic???

I dont think we should kill innocent arab people. I think we should pressure the Afghani government into giving up terrorists and show any country that supports terrorism that we will not allow it.

Who are we to determine what is allowed and what isnt?
(you might ask)

We have no more more right than they do but you know what, I DONT CARE ANYMORE. We have to protect our country and our way of life not live by the Bullshit PC ideas that out us in jeopardy in the first place.

GOD BLESS AMERICA
 

I am not apologizing for bin Laden and his thugs. If you read my thread, "The Coming War" you will know I hold no love for them. They are a pack of vicous murdering dogs and deserve anything they get.

However, we cannot lump all muslim people into that category.
 

I cannot add anything to all the above comments and arguments, but one thing really surprised me, having now been subjected first-hand to all the "increased security" at airports.

We got to the airport to find half of the parking lot closed up because it was "too close" to the terminal. There were several cops standing outside the terminal building. (Keep in mind this is Kalispell MT, a town of about 15,000 people, but it still has an international airport.)

Now I understand from the news that the weapon of choice among the terrorists was plastic knives. Well, we went thru security...had our bags opened, our IDs checked, etc, etc, and there was a big sign stating "no knives or sharp objects allowed."

I got to thinking, if I was going to sneak a knife aboard a plane, where would I hide it? I'd probably strap it to my ankle, or maybe keep it in a large jacket pocket, or something. The point is, THERE WAS NO WAY the security people would have noticed a plastic knife. They did not 'frisk' me; the only thing getting x-rayed was our bags, the same as always (although the lady at the gate did stare at each bag's ocntents for about 30 seconds compared to the old 2-second stare).

During the convention we saw a screening of the delayed movie "Big Trouble." Part of the film concerns a group of people sneaking a nuclear device on board an airliner. Given the events of this week, the scene (which was meant as humorous) is absolutely chilling. I won't go into detail about it, but let's just say I could totally see it working.

The new airport security measures are just going to inconvenience a lot of innocent traveling public, and the officials are not going to find any non-metal weapons unless they start searching a whole lot more thoroughly than they are now.

I fear all this nonsense is just the beginning.
 

Osama bin Laden? He was a creature of the CIA -- just like Saddam Hussein.

Bomb Afghanistan? Bomb Iraq again? Muslims and Arabs in this country are being attacked as we speak.

Does anyone remember The Siege? It bluntly illustrated in 1998 what the US government wants to do now -- a fascist America under the guise of a "war on terrorism".

Few have noticed it, but Bush has already declared a national state of emergency. That is the first step toward a military dictatorship and martial law in the U.S.

and here is where it gets wild.

My daughters neighbor Steven O'Hagen ...missing in the WTC collapse. He has twin daughters and my daughter has twins, boy and girl. Only two months apart so they are fairly close.

Steve O'Hagan is a fireman who lives in the Bronx but works in Manhatta.

There is a Steve O'Hagan who is a fireman who lives in Manhattan and works in the Bronx. Different persons.

However, my daughters friend keeps getting phone calls from the Fire Department saying " Your husband is alive and being treated at "x" hospital. She say's "Does he live in Bronx?" and they say no in Manhattan.........All it does is add to the pain......

This has been a week that I shall never forget...the pain runs deep.

I am watching, I am listening, and all I can say is.....God Bless the USA, now and forever, Semper Fi! I wish I was in my twenties once more and I really appreciate all of you. We are a fraternity of film professionals. Thank you all for being here. I may not agree with you, but you are my friends. I shall not forget.

He sent me this link:
www.snopes2.com/inboxer/hoaxes/predict.htm
Your fellow Film-Techer,
Andy
 

Bob, I'm glad you and your loved ones are all right. Truth be told, you were actually one of the first people I thought about when this happened. Anyway, I continue to hope that the casualties are minimal.

I think it was on Thursday that I was driving on the road when this song on the radio came on. The title alludes me right now, but it was patriotic. Not a particularly good song, in fact in any other circumstance I probably would have changed the station. But when that song was playing, and seeing all the American flags at half mast, and the people on the streets holding flags and waving at the passing automobiles, I started to choke up inside. In fact, I actually had to hold back (my eyes were all ready starting to well up) for concern that my blurred vision would get me into a wreck. But I couldn't for the life of me turn the station nor turn the radio off. And then the next night, I saw three kids (probably twelve to sixteen) sitting on a residental sidewalk corner holding a vigil. On a Friday night. Hell, I'm starting to get wet around the eyes just thinking about that as I type this. I don't wanna start sounding preachy here (I make a lousy preacher by the way) but seeing those flag bearers, and the vigils, and hearing the stories about the brave people fighting to overcome this, and the people giving out blood and other donations really makes me proud to have been born here. I just wished this didn't have to happen to make me realize that (stepping away from the pulpit now).

"Patriotism" easily leads to jingoism and eventually to fascism. Waving the flag is one thing. Blindly attacking Arabs and Muslims is another. That is exactly what is happening.
 

Antonio

quote:

---

Dustin: My father (now deceased) was in WWII. My ex-brother-in-law was in Vietnam. Don't you DARE try to quash what I have to say! If you do then you are no better than the Nazis my father fought against.

"Patriotism" easily leads to jingoism and eventually to fascism. Waving the flag is one thing. Blindly attacking Arabs and Muslims is another. That is exactly what is happening.

---

I suggest you re-read my last response. Until I get an answer to that, I guess this side discussion is done.
 

I read that link you provided about the government declaring martial law.. Needless to say, I was shocked, but not for the reason you may think. I was shocked that some people in this nation are so ignorant of the legal system that they actually think that.

Congress cannot pass a law, no matter what the circumstances, that suspends the Constitution, or any part of the constitution. Chief Justice Marshall, in writing the opinion of the Supreme Court in Marbury v. Madison (1803) stated the following:

"Certainly all those who have framed written constitutions contemplate them as forming the fundamental and paramount law of the nation, and, consequently, the theory of every such government must be, that an act of the legislature, repugnant to the constitution, is void.

This theory is essentailly attached to a written constitution, and, is consequently, to be considered, by this court, as one of the fundamental principles of our society."

Charles, email me, we'll continue this there.
 

Charlie
You're living on others glory. What does their glory have to do with you? In a few years when you move out on your own and get out of college and figure out the real world and develope your own opinions (instead of those radical left wing wacko's you keep parroting)it will be interesting to see what your attititudes are like. Right now however all you can seem to do is try to condem and belittle everything the government does. It's real easy to be a critic isn't it.

"Greg, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. I dont suppport the actions of these terrorists either, but calling for the annhialation of millions of other arabs is not only a stupid idea because it would accomplish nothing, but shows you to be a racist which in my opinion makes you unrespectable."

Jim Boy
It would accomplish the removal of the threat to the US and it's way of life. They can't kill us if we kill them first. Get it? We are at war bucko, it's not PC as much as you wish it was. The last man standing wins. You think they're going to stop now? This is just the first attack, wake up. This race of people who blindly hates us and they are teaching and training their children to do the same. This is going to go on and on and on. It will get worse and worse and worse. Airplanes into buildings, HA!. Wait till the suitcase nukes start going off and the germ/biological warfare starts killing not just a few thousands, but a few millions. Call me a racist? Maybe so. What I know is that there is a middle east race that wants to kill my race (isn't that racist?) Will I let them? Hell no. What we have to do now is be better at the game than they are or they will win.
As far as your "respect" goes....

Nuke 'em till they glow, shoot 'em in the dark.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

Bret
Exactly. We will not remain the most powerful nation on the planet and enjoy all the liberties that we do if we allow them to kill us. We must win to stay alive. The major difference between us and them is that the US did not go over and run one of their jet planes into their World Trade Center, thereby committing and act of war. They started it. We will not win by being all "touchy feely" or "PC" and "feeling their pain" and all that "civilized" crap. We must be better fighters than they are. We must employ whatever means necessary to be victorious, whatever that requires. And while I'm at it, it has been repeatedly claimed that women and children are "innocents" and we should do nothing to hurt them while we are stomping our feet and telling the men to "stop it". As far as I know, none of the wives, girl friends or daughters called up and said "My husband (boy friend, father etc)is going to kill thousands of people in the near future. Better stop him" Women can pull triggers, light fuses and start timers. What happen to y'alls PC stand that women are equal to men? Or is that (again) only US women.
We now have a group that has the greatest bragging rights in Arab land. We will in the immediate future, see other groups trying to "out terrorize" them and be top dog on that pile. All you that think that this is a one shot deal and it's all over are only fooling yourselves.

In the days that followed 911, the news had several stories concerning the Arabs celebrating the death of thousands of Americans. They were dancing in the streets. There were men, women and children involved. Much to my amazement I learned that there were several restaurants in the Seattle area that were having celebrations of the same kind.
You can lay down and die or standup and fight. It's up to you.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

It's my job to have something to say
By Leonard Pitts Jr.
Tribune Media Services

They pay me to tease shades of meaning from social and culturalissues, to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.

You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard.

What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our
World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would
learn?

Whatever it was, please know that you failed. Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.

Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve. Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.

Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, cultural, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse.

We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and
material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent,
though-peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right
thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith,believers in a just and loving God.

Some of you, perhaps, think that any or all of this makes us weak.
You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that
cannot be measured by arsenals.

Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're
still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still
working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect
from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of its ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and indeed, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been before. But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice. I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know =reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future.

In days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers
pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too.
Unimaginably determined. You see, there is steel beneath this velvet.
That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't
know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As
Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.

Still, I keep wondering what it was you hoped to teach us. It occurs me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred.If
that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're about. You don't know what you just started.

But you're about to learn.


Leonard Pitts is a columnist for the Miami Herald, 1 Herald Plaza,Miami,
Fla., 33132. Readers may contact him at (888) 251-4407 or via
e-mail at leonardpitts@mindspring.com.)
 

He said that he was appalled at the prayer gathering which Pres. Bush attended in Washington. Says that that Muslim who offered prayer has been a leader of Muslim protests in Washington--"US is owned by Jews--death to Jews/Israel/USA!"
 

Also anyone who missed Dave Letterman's show Monday night...it was sad, profound, emotional, informative, and just damn good TV.

But for the record....my name is JAMES
Do not call me "Jim Boy" or anything else.
 

It depends on how you define 'us'. If you mean the USA pure and simple, then maybe not. But the IRA have been attacking a country which is supposedly one of the USA's key international allies for a long time now whilst the US (depending on the administration) have either been ignoring it or facilitating support via Noraid.

To make things worse, our government, as part of a so-called 'peace process', has released hundreds of convicted terrorist murderers from jail, many of whom have subsequently re-offended, whilst the IRA have yet to hand over a single rusty old shotgun. I find it hard to believe how the US has supported Israel's moves to protect its citizens from Palestinian terrorists, but has done precisely the opposite in relation to Britain and the IRA.

Like Hamas in Israel and Bin Laden in New York, the IRA has attacked anyone and everyone who belives in the rule of law, even if American citizens have not directly been on the receiving end of their bombs or bullets. The lack of support Britain has received from the US government over this, especially given Britain's support for the US over the Gulf War and Israel (which, as a result, has made us far more likely to be targeted by Bin Laden and his cronies than many other European countries) is a particularly sore issue to me - a close friend of mine was seriously injured by an IRA bomb.

Bush knew there was going to be an attack on the USA . . . and did nothing!

How much longer before this moron faces articles of impeachment?

Charlie, you need a brain enema

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

"We will be in a War with someone, or something within the year."

Why did I have to be right? I really wish I hadn't been.

:-(

Oddly enough, I was not trying to argue Bush or Gore at the time I made the statement. It was just something I felt.

And Bob, have we won this war? Better question, can we win this war?

I myself just feel that we are currently fighting an idea, one that no knife, bullet or bomb can kill. As long as there are Americans that think like Mc Veigh, no amount of dead foreign terrorists will set to rest the idea of terrorism, or the lasting fear that it instills in all of us.

Do you think, Bob, that our World can exist without war? We look back at medevil times and think how barbaric they were. Will my children's, children's, children look at us with the same disgust?

Maybe I am playing "hippie's" advocate here, but in my heart of hearts, I would like to see an end to bloodshed.

"Semper Fi"...Always faithful...but faithful to whom?

Bob, I ask these questions in pure curiousity, and mean absolutly no disrespect to you or any other member of our Armed Forces.
 

Now to the comments of Mr. Will Morrow, and others who just dont get this. But please dont take it personally, I am sure that you area only not apprised to certain non secret documents available to every single person in the world.

Please understand how our country is formed and how it runs its elections.

The other guy did NOT win the election.

If you go back and read the constitution of the United States of America, which I believe we are part of, you will find that this country is NOT a democracy, but rather a Republic of independant states, grouped together for strength and unity. The constitution provides a way for us to make sure that each independant state to have a fair vote in how we elect our federal officers, including the president of the US.

In the election of our president, each state gets so many votes, the same number of federally elected officers, or our senate and house members. In my state of Utah, we get five votes, and in other states they get more votes, or less votes. The winner of the most of these, or electoral votes, wins the presidential election. This system was put in place to prohibit large populated cities from controlling the outcome for the rest of the country.

The popular vote, as yourself refers to as how we "really" elect a president, is exactly the type of system that our founding fathers wanted to protect us against. The system of mob rule can really bring a country down you know. Thats why we are not in a democracy, but in a republic.

So large cities such as LA, NY, Chicago, do not vote out smaller ones such as Boise or Shoshanee.

Each of our states are of course democracies, but our country is a republic of these independantly democratic states.

If you want to play the pop vote game, lets count the six million votes in california that were never counted, the ones that could have leaned the votes in CA the other way, if they were counted. But they werent counted because the election was called.

There were four recounts in florida, and after four recounts Gore still lost the votes there. We were getting close to the constitutionally mandated electoral vote time and it was necessary to make sure that Florida did not lose their vote. Yes it is true that if florida did not cast thier vote, they would have lost it, and Gore would have been declared the winner of the election, but is that fair to all the people that voted in florida, to tell them their vote didnt count because Gore wanted to win? The supreme court ruled and under our constitution that is the last word. That is why they are there, to settle disputes such as this. This was a point of law and they had to rule. Failure to do so would have removed the right of a democratic state to cast its fair votes in the presidential election. That would have been wrong.

We also forget that after the election was called, Mr. gore called to congradulate Mr. bush, then called about half an hour later to take it back. It was his right, but he kept it up for four recounts, and four weeks. He refused to give it up, and there was no chance to really pull this one out. If he was successful to win the election by court victory, how would that look for our country? Sure, just sue and become president!!!

And no Bush did not get the seat handed to him by the Supreme Court as some would have you believe. All they did was stop the court proceedings and let the election stand as it was called. Mr. Bush was elected president, he was elected by the rules of our country and the rules of our constitution. If you think otherwise, then you have been duped by those who have no interest whatsoever in preserving the constitution and the ideals for which so many have died to protect.

DOnt let the media fool you. After all, it was the media that made you all beleive that the melinnium ended at the end of 1999.

The preceeding message was paid for by the nice people at Mikes Hard Lemonade.

Dave
 

I don't care what anyone say's about you. I am standing behind you and my gun ( yes, gun not rifle..is at the ready.) Let the battle begin.
 

Do I wish we all lived in peace? You bet I do.

Do I think it will happen in my lifetime? Not a chance?

However, I pray everyday that peace will come to all mankind. Amen
 

I support any effort that involves the capture of OBL, even the execution, although I wish there was a way to make him understand the evil he has brought upon us before he is killed.

He should have to explain himself, one on one to every survivor, and surviving family member of the tragedy he helped create on Sept. 11th.

Then our criminal psychologists should be allowed to study him, exhausting him, and breaking him.

Then and only then should it even be thought that he be put to rest.

 

Bob, my two guns are standing with ya.

Will, I'm all for vengence and as much as I would love to set all the blame on Osama's shoulders, I'm not stupid. No one cares if he gets on his knees and prays for forgivness to those families, just as they will not back down if we find and execute( or torture him with your idea of repentence) Osama. One of the perceived enemies will fall and with our ordinance the outcome is predetermined, when and how is up in the air. Your wish "I wish there was a way to make him understand the evil he has brought upon us before he is killed." is probably the same as osama wishes for certain or all americans. We are not the lily white angels that can do nothing wrong, in some ways we brought this war to ourselves. In the same way we believe we are right they believe we are wrong.

We will always have enemies.

Don't get me started on Israel or Saudi Arabia.

To be totally politically incorrect:
"Kill em' all and clear us some vacation spots"

Wow, that's an intelligent and well thought out statement.
 

Our friend, the Neutron bomb!

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

Wouldn't want to give the wrong idea.
 

------------------
A KIWI eats,roots & Leaves.

If you were unfortunate enough to lose someone in the attacks, or are constantly worried by the reports that another attack in imminent, or are simply scared because for the first time in a lot of people's lifetimes you don't feel 100% safe, "Kill em' all and clear us some vacation spots" may begin to sound rational. I interpret that where his head is at and what he is trying to say is that talking things out doesn't work with these guys. Pleading that 'we all just get along' doesn't work with these guys. What's your suggestion? It's easy to criticize without solutions of your own.
 

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

The statement was my way of wanting this to be overwith, not a solution by a long shot. In no way do I wish harm on innocent lives. Revenge is not my game and that is what I was trying to state earlier in my post.In regards to 'Bob, my two guns are standing with ya.', I was stating that if it came to a point that I needed to defend my life and country I would be there.

Frankly, I believe we should have never interfered with Israel and thier surrounding enemy or the soviet attack on afganistan in the early eighties. Bleeding hearts that felt the need to butt in on others got us where we are today. I am all for spreading the american idea of freedom and democracy everywhere, but I sure don't want to ram it down other folks throat just to have them turn on us. We persecute the palastinians and shake our fingers at them, yet we are buddies with countries that carry on with some of the worst human rights violations on earth. Thats where my frustration builds from.
 

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
 

For me to rest in peace, I feel that I would have to die at peace. What do I mean by that? I mean, if there is a nuclear attack near Mt. Pleasant Michigan, and you no longer see me post here, then know that I died a martyre of peace. I died without vegeance towards mankind, of any race, nationality, color or creed. We are an imperfect creation, we can be made to believe what our media and governments want us to believe. In that respect we aren't any different than our brothers and sisters around the world. It's so very much easier to solve our problems with a gun, especially when we deal with people that don't talk like us, than it is to solve them with compassion. No, I have never killed a human, with a gun, and I am not saying the act of that is easy for the average person. But for a government, that has a trained group for doing just that sort of thing, then it is easy to make the order.

Sometimes Americans forget that the people in charge of our nation are human beings, hell, they even forget, but it's true. Mistakes will be made, consequences will be lived, but time will still march on, without skipping a beat.

So many of us worry about the history of ourselves, our families, even our country. But the history of humankind stands to lose the most if we don't figure out an alternative to war.

Those are my feelings now...

 

" killing everyone makes us no better than the terrorists that attcked on 9/11."
You're right, we can't be "better" we have to be worse or we will lose. We have to kill more of them than they kill of us. The one that wins the fight survives and lives on. That's "natural selection" or "Survival of the fittest" if you prefer

"A nuclear attack on American soil? Hasn't this been a threat since other countries became nuclear capable? Why all the worry now?"

Yes, but then we dealt with the Russians and they are not idiots like the arabs. They realized that if they shot at us we would shoot back and there would be mutual destruction. They liked being alive as do we so it was a stand off. We held each other at bay, neither of us wanting to die. But now you have one side that embraces death. Like they did on 9/11, they will not and do not care if they die. They want to! So if they can sit on top of a suitcase or satchel nuke and push the button, "wa-hoo, here I come virgins".
Hey you guys are welcome to "die in peace" but don't take me or anyone else with you by your in action. Do you prefer death?

"humankind stands to lose the most if we don't figure out an alternative to war."

Please oh please, convince the arabs of that and we'll all be ok.
Honestly you guys think I have a lust for killing or something? Listen we have this bunch of people who have sworn to kill us all just because of the country we live in. These people are racists to the nth degree. They are terminators and they will not rest or give up or have mercy or feel our pain or talk it out. They want us dead. There's only one way to deal with homicidal maniacs....
 

I lived in Israel in the late 1980's.

Out of necessity, whereever our group went, we were armed.

Our host did its best to brief us....

"If you ever hear some shout Allah Aqbah or Ya Allah...subdue that person or persons before they open up their attack!"
 

creed

Pronunciation: (krEd), [key]
—n.
1. any system, doctrine, or formula of religious belief, as of a denomination.
2. any system or codification of belief or of opinion.
3. an authoritative, formulated statement of the chief articles of Christian belief, as the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, or the Athanasian Creed.
4. the creed.See Apostles' Creed.
 

An FBI agent in Minneapolis said yesterday that the Bureau rewrote his warnings to make it sound like it was no big deal.

After all the FBI has bungled everything else in its path: Ruby Ridge . . . Waco . . . Oklahoma City . . . Olympics . . . Wen Ho Lee . . . and now 9/11. Its solution is more money to turn it into a secret state police.

Did somebody say "Gestapo"?

Very sad no matter what.

Dennis

Semper Fi!!! Let us go and kick ass.

------------------
Find me online
AOL: Dexter Caldwell
yahoo!: dexter_caldwell

"It is the opinion of the entire staff the Dexter is criminally insane."

1. Many innocent people that are 100% AGAINST 'So-Damn-Insane' would die. Not really good strategy there.

2. It is very possible that Saddam could leave Iraq before the strike, once again killing hundreds or thousands of innocent or insignificant [military] people and Saddam sits pretty, unscathed. World opinion of the USA would go south in a BIG hurry if that were to happen.

3. Nuke Iraq, and what happens to all that precious oil sitting there? It either sits there or burns for years. Nobody will buy radioactive petroleum. Another strategic, economic, and environmental blunder.

Nukes aren't the answer here- we need to get some moles in Baghdad, and get the intelligence needed to raid Saddam's bunkers and take him out of power, dead or alive. Get the anti-Saddam people to sieze control of Iraq. Saddam's military is still a fragment of what he had in 1991, it shouldn't be too difficult to go in and take him out, once he is positively located. Change the regime, don't annihilate the country and its resources.

just my .02

-Aaron

USA TODAY takes a look at some of the facts and figures related to the attacks and aftermath of last Sept. 11.

The price tag is $700 million to clear and repair the Pentagon. The building cost $49.6 million (in 1941 dollars).

The youngest passenger on the hijacked jets was Christine Hanson on United Airlines Flight 175. She was 2 and on her first trip to Disneyland.

Two-thousand children lost a parent Sept. 11, including 146 who lost a parent at the Pentagon.

The oldest passenger on the hijacked jets was Robert Norton on American Airlines Flight 11. He was 82.

The New York City Fire Department lost 343 firefighters, almost half the number of on-duty deaths in the department's 100-year history.

The south tower collapsed at a magnitude of 2.1 on a seismograph; the north tower collapsed with a magnitude of 2.3, according to Columbia University in New York.

The San Francisco Bay Area earthquake in 1989 had a magnitude of 7.1.

1,444 trash receptacles were removed from Metro subway station areas in the Washington metropolitan area. 400 bomb-resistant trash containers will be installed by Oct. 1, 2002, near fare entrances.

91 baseball games were postponed in the six days Major League Baseball suspended play, the longest postponement, excluding work stoppages, for regular-season games since World War I in 1918.

Sirius, one of the first bomb-sniffing K-9 dogs stationed near the World Trade Center after the 1993 terrorist bombing, died in the Sept. 11 attacks.

Fifteen million square feet of office space was lost at the WTC, more than three times the amount of space at the Sears Tower in Chicago.

1,430 people with 50,000 employees from 26 countries called the WTC "the office."

4,600 Pentagon workers had to be relocated temporarily.

1,337 vehicles were crushed when the towers collapsed, including 91 FDNY vehicles — a little more than half of all the fire vehicles in Louisville.

1.5 million working hours during 261 days were spent removing the debris at the WTC site.

The FBI has assigned more than 2,500 of its 11,500 agents to anti-terrorism operations. 350,000 pages from the CIA and 20,000 pages from the FBI were produced for congressional hearings about possible intelligence failures before Sept. 11. Eleven people shared addresses with at least one of the hijackers. Seven of the 11 were on the FBI's "watch list" and were pilots.

29 Oprah shows focused primarily on Sept. 11 subjects.

The United States has offered a reward of up to $25 million, paid for by the Rewards for Justice program, for information leading to the apprehension of Osama bin Laden. In the three months before Sept. 11, the CIA forwarded 300 names a month to agencies watching for terrorists. In September, the number rose to nearly 1,000; in October, 1,400. It has leveled off to fewer than 900 names a month.

Nearly half of Washington's 25,000 hotel workers lost their jobs in September 2001. Half of those have been rehired.

80 wedding ceremonies were scheduled at the Viva Las Vegas Wedding Chapel from Sept. 11 to Sept. 17. Forty-seven couple canceled.

Eight nationwide call centers staffed by 20,000 volunteers logged 300,000 calls within the first 15 minutes of the Sept. 21 America: A Tribute to Heroes telethon, which raised $112 million.

Kejo, a police and military equipment seller, sold more than 1,000 gas masks in September, up from the usual 100 a year.

The Salvation Army served 3,231,681 meals at the WTC site from Sept. 11 to May 30.

Seven in 10 Americans say they have experienced depression since the attacks. New York State Office of Mental Health estimates more than 33,000 showed symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.

5,000 wooden crosses to commemorate victims were planted Sept. 23 in Guthrie, Okla., by the Bible Baptist Church.

Entertainers Rosie O'Donnell and Sandra Bullock each donated $1 million to the American Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund.

The monthly revenue for airport limousines a month after Sept. 11 fell from $666 million to $333 million nationally. The average daily take of the Afghan Grill in Edison, N.J., dropped from $1,300 to $100 a month after the attacks.

The week before Sept. 11, Jack: Straight From the Gut, by Jack Welch, topped the Amazon.com 100. The week after, Twin Towers: The Life of New York City's World Trade Center, by Angus Kress Gillespie, was No. 1.

Hasbro reported a 56% increase in G.I. Joe sales after relaunching the 37-year-old action figure this summer. New to the line are the G.I. Joe Search & Rescue Firefighter and the 10th Mountain Division soldier, whose real-life counterparts are now serving in Afghanistan.

48 countries held ceremonies on Dec. 11 to commemorate the victims.

$900 million will be raised by the end of 2002 from the Department of Transportation's $2.50 passenger ticket fee to help pay for aviation security.

More than 100 people affected by the terror attacks carried the Olympic torch on its way to Salt Lake City.

The Emmys were postponed twice: Sept. 16, after the terrorist attacks, and Oct. 7, when the United States began airstrikes in Afghanistan.

$5 million has been sent to the White House by schoolchildren for America's Fund for Afghan Children.

In October, 55,000 jobs were lost nationwide at eateries. Nationally, restaurant sales declined $6 billion in September 2001.

Applications increased 53% for majors in Middle and Near East Studies at New York University for fall 2002, compared with fall 2001.

333,000 metric tons of food, enough to feed 26 million, was delivered to Afghanistan by the World Food Program, with the support of the U.S. government, from October 2001 to March 1. 2,423,000 Humanitarian Daily Rations have been dropped in Afghanistan.

161 countries have frozen suspected terrorists' assets.

America's Blood Centers, a network of community banks, collected 251,370 units, nearly three times the normal intake, in the four days after Sept. 11. The Red Cross collected more than 200,000 units and saw its on-hand supply nearly double, from 80,000 units to 156,000 units in days.

The airline industry lost $5 billion from Sept. 11 to Sept. 30 and requested $24 billion in aid from the federal government. Because of tighter restrictions, drugs seized along the 1,962-mile U.S.-Mexico border fell by 80% in the two weeks after the terrorist attacks, compared with the same period the year before.

Donations of $1.88 billion related to Sept. 11 accounted for nearly 1% of all charitable giving in 2001. The average individual donation to Sept. 11 charities was less than $100. Donor nations have promised the United Nations $1.6 billion in aid to Afghanistan.

Nationwide, hotel occupancy dropped to 52.3% Sept. 16 to Sept. 22, down 25.9% from the same period in 2000. 268 marriage licenses were issued in Hawaii Sept. 11 to Sept. 18, down from 732 licenses issued the same week in 2000.

The Tribute in Light, which illuminated the New York skyline nightly from March 11 through April 13, used $10,000 worth of electricity.

The Transportation Security Administration needs 67,000 employees to screen airline passengers and luggage. The administration had hired 23,600 as of Sept. 3.

Wal-Mart sold 116,000 flags on Sept. 11, 2001, an increase of 100,000 compared with Sept. 11, 2000. All flags were made in the USA.

There are 564 detainees at the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, accused of belonging to al-Qaeda or the Taliban.

120 jets were stranded on the tarmac at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport on Sept. 11.

In a USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll conducted last week, 60% of Americans said it was very or somewhat likely there would be another attack during the next several weeks. The percentage was down from 80% in October.

The New York City Fire Department has received more than 1 million pieces of mail. The mementos fill two warehouses.

New York City's Verizon recorded 230 million calls a day the week after Sept. 11. Normal volume is half that.

The National Football League bought 1 million small flags for spectators when games resumed Sept. 23.

When the New York Stock Exchange reopened Sept. 17, half of the financial district was without electricity and had to use generators. At 9:30 a.m., traders on the exchange floor paused to observe two minutes of silence.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tested the air at Ground Zero 1,174 times from Sept. 18 to Oct. 4.

More than 2,000 memorial items have been archived at Somerset Historical Museum from the Shanksville, Pa., crash site, including 200 teddy bears.

More than 65 items, from toy weapons to pool cues, are now prohibited in aircraft cabins. Before Sept. 11, there were fewer than 30 restricted items.

Twenty-one office buildings in Lower Manhattan, the same number of buildings in the Southtown section of Kansas City, Mo., were affected by the terrorist attacks. At the end of 2003, New York City will have a net loss of 57,000 jobs attributable to the attack. More than 700 businesses in the WTC complex, about twice as many as are in the Mall of America in Bloomington, Minn., either were destroyed or severely damaged. 22,000 people in Lower Manhattan had requested job-loss benefits 30 days after Sept. 11.

More civilians (70) than people in the military (55) were killed at the Pentagon.

The viewing platform at the WTC site can hold 400 people. It is 13 feet high and made of wood.

The Salt Lake City Olympic Organizing Committee unveiled a $5 red, white and blue Olympic pin with the words United We Stand on Sept. 17. By the next day, 60,000 orders had been received.

Homeless children at the Thomas J. Pappas Elementary School in Phoenix raised $2,000 by making and selling paper flags. The money went to New York City.

Broadway shows grossed $9.6 million for the week ending Sept. 9, 2001. For the week ending Sept. 16, the gross was $3.5 million, and attendance dropped by more than 100,000 to 65,155.

44 passengers and crew members died on United Flight 93. That is one-fifth of the population of Shanksville, Pa., where the jet crashed.

The NYSE made 5,000 breathing masks available to employees and traders because of thick smoke and dust when the stock market reopened Sept. 17.

The fires at Ground Zero burned for 99 days, until Dec. 19.

New England Patriots guard Joe Andruzzi's brother, Jim, was one of the first 500 firefighters called to the WTC Sept. 11. He got out.

Six employees of Morgan Stanley, the largest tenant of the WTC, died in the attack. 3,700 are employed by the company. Cantor Fitzgerald lost more than 600 employees on Sept. 11, all of those on duty at 8:46 a.m. The 320 employees who survived were not in the building.

There were 19 hijackers. Hijackers Mohamed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi spent $48 on Sept. 7 at Shuckums, a Hollywood, Fla., bar. Each had five drinks.

189 people died at the Pentagon and on American Flight 77. 168 died in the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995.

It cost $1.1 billion (in 1970 dollars) to build the WTC. A box cutter, which terrorists used as weapons to hijack the planes, costs about $4.

Some Pentagon employees have returned to their offices in the damaged outer ring 61 years after ground was broken Sept. 11, 1941
 

Steve,
The steel beams were laid parallel on the Fresh Kills refuse mountain-like dump,where some were marked for structural analysis by metallurgists, some few given to communities and organizations for turning into memorial sculptures, and the majority shipped to scrapmetal yards for recycling. Early on there was some concern that too much was melted down for recycling before it could be scientifically analyzed, so a more deliberate procedure was worked out.
 

The people have taken a cue from J.Lo and told the TV networks "Enough!" Bush oughta do the same thing.

5,631 Winners in NYS LOTTO playing Numbers 911 on 9/11/02
Each to get $5,000 per full ticket.
http://www.msnbc.com/local/wnbc/A1319783.asp?0na=x2201312-
 

By now everyone has been hearing the death toll rise and reports of the destruction from the terrorist attacks on the US. These were deplorable acts that we will never forget. But now is a time to look at the other side of the numbers coming out of New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. The sad but somewhat uplifting side that the mainstream media has not reported yet - the SURVIVAL rates and some positive news about the attacks.

THE BUILDINGS

The World Trade Center
The twin towers of the World Trade Center were places of employment for some 50,000 people. With the missing list of just over 5,000 people, that means 90% of the people targeted survived the attack. A 90% on a test is an "A"'.

The Pentagon

Some 23,000 people were the target of a third plane aimed at the Pentagon. The latest count shows that only 123 lost their lives. That is an amazing 99.5% survival rate. in addition, the plane seems to have come in too low, too early to affect a large portion of the building. On top of that, the section that was hit was the first of five sections to undergo renovations that would help protect the Pentagon from terrorist attacks. It had recently completed straightening and blast proofing, saving untold lives. This attack was sad, but a statistical failure.

THE PLANES

American Airlines Flight 77
This Boeing 757 that was flown into the outside of the Pentagon could have carried up to 289 people, yet only 64 were aboard. Luckily 78% of the seats were empty.

American Airlines Flight 11
This Boeing 767 could have had up to 351 people aboard, but only carried 92. Thankfully 74% of the seats were unfilled.

United Airlines Flight 175
Another Boeing 767 that could have sat 351 people only had 65 people on board. Fortunately it was 81% empty.

United Airlines Flight 93
This Boeing 757 was one of the most uplifting stories yet. The smallest flight to be hijacked with only 45 people aboard out of a possible 289 had 84% of its capacity unused. Yet these people stood up to the attackers and thwarted a fourth attempted destruction of a national landmark, saving untold numbers of lives in the process.

IN SUMMARY

Out of potentially 74,280 Americans directly targeted by these inept cowards, 93% survived or avoided the attacks. That's a higher survival rate than heart attacks, breast cancer, kidney transplants and liver transplants all common, survivable illnesses.

Pass this information on to those in fear and the media. Don't fear these terrorists. The odds are against them.

~Author Unknown~


 

As for nuking? Even if it was against an entire country, the problem with nuking becomes global wide. I don't mean everyone shoots, I mean that the fallout gets high into the atmosphere and goes global, effecting the ecosystem all over, for at least a thousand years. Thats just one. And that is the chief reason to stop Iraq from developing one.

Imagine ten, or a hundred. A hudred would make this planet unlivable, a thousand would kill it off. Nuking, while sounds cool, is definately not very cool. Although it would be very cold afterwards.

Dave
 

quote:

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Imagine ten, or a hundred. A hudred would make this planet unlivable, a thousand would kill it off. Nuking, while sounds cool, is definately not very cool. Although it would be very cold afterwards.

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Course that doesn't mean I'm in favor of nuking our 'enemies' until they glow green.