Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Painting a Screen

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Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 12-11-2001, 03:12 AM:

Well you may ask why ? my friend at the Crystal Palace Cinema was going to replace his Screen as the light was not the best after putting New Mirrors in the Peerless Magnarcs and cleaning the Port glass ,(Amps to spare but not with 6ooo ft reels)as the Carbons are maxed out, 30' by 15' approx with a throw of 100' approx. now he is asking about painting Matt white , I've got a Blue Book for projectionist ,but is there any modern way of painting this sucessfully without blocking the holes in the screen and making a mess , you see we have an Indian (Asian) Movie starting on the weekend and we have to compete with 2 modern Cinema's (as it is being shown in 3 theatres at once) and they have better light ,sound and seating , the only thing in our favour is the number seated in 1 session 7oo approx. and the charm of an old cinema .

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 12-11-2001, 07:53 AM:

Big Al is probably going to roll over in his grave, but it is possible to paint an ancient screen to rescue it at minimal expense. That said, it is far better to replace the screen entirely. The only reasons to paint a screen are short term financial difficulties or
a defacing spot that can't be cleaned and a new screen isn't available.

The process is straightforward. Clean the screen throroughly, both front and back, brushing off loose dirt first and then wiping down with a non-residue cleaner (spic-n-span) and rinsing down with water and drying with absorbant paper towels. Any dirt left on the screen front or back will ruin the job.

The critical holes are the ones in front of the speakers. These are the only holes that pass high frequency sound. You can take a chance that a thin (dry roller) layer of paint rolled on in that area won't occlude the holes, or you can ream the holes when the paint is partly dry, or you can stick round toothpick ends through them from the back prior to painting and remove the toothpicks as the paint dries.

Painting is done with a roller working from top to bottom, left to right, never stopping until complete. There used to be screen paints (there still may be) but most high titanium dioxide content ceiling paint will work well.

Painting will cover water stains, even out patches, and cover shiney spots where people have improperly cleaned a screen. Once a screen is painted, start budgeting for a replacement. There may be some sound muffling even if you keep the holes as clear as possible, and painting a second time isn't a good idea.

I've projected onto expensive screens, and I've projected onto painted sheetrock. I personally prefer the look of painted sheetrock because I feel screen holes can be distracting and allow specular reflections from rigging behind the screen. The problem is that this only works for a very small screen because speakers can't be properly placed behind the screen.

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 12-11-2001, 08:33 AM:

Thanks for that ,my preference would be New and there was an offer to supply one from a Complex that didn't like the look of a New one just installed , so I will try to convince him to upgrade , I have also tried to get him to use the original curved frame that is supporting the flat....but how much blood can be quezzed from a stone?:-) mind you having enough Carbons to last a show will keep me happy ,so I don't have to start praying near the end of a Big reel.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-11-2001, 09:47 AM:

The best method is to spray the screen with light coats (if it is a gain screen the aluminum paint must be put on very thin or the plastic will melt)
Vacum the back of the screen while still wet to unclog the hole

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 12-11-2001, 09:48 AM:

quote:
I've projected onto expensive screens, and I've projected onto painted sheetrock. I personally prefer the look of painted sheetrock because I feel screen holes can be distracting

There was one occasion, when I watched Runaway Bride on August 1, 1999 at the 13:35 showing at Regal River Oaks Cinema 8 in Decatur, AL, that I noticed the holes in the screen. It made the image look like it had a "pixel structure" to it. I was sitting in the fourth row and the focus was perfect, and I've found that perfect focus makes the holes more likely to be visible, maybe because it causes people's eyes to pay more attention to small details like that? I've never noticed the holes from farther back than the fourth row.

------------------
Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Information Site

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-11-2001, 02:58 PM:

Any theatre that has a smaller screen, with the front rows sitting close enough to see the normal 1.2 millimetre screen perforations, should consider the use of the new smaller "MP" 0.5 millimetre perforations. However, the greater attenuation of high frequencies by the smaller holes will require reequalizing the theatre sound system.

For example, here is a link to information about Harkness Hall "mini-perf" in their "Happenings Newsletter - issue 4":
http://www.harknesshall.com/news1.htm

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 12-11-2001, 03:47 PM:

I had a theatre owner painted a screen with "kilt"(white paint primer)someone wrote on the screen with magic marker in several places, so he decided to paint over it with Kilt....The screen looked damn good, almost like new, he was so proud of his work & idea.....I walked in to make a service call & saw him painting, I said you can't use that on a screen..he said look how good it looks like brand new....I said let me go put a light on the screen.....Whooooo weeeeeee I busted his bubble......it was worst than having the writing on the screen.....he brought a new screen !!

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-11-2001, 05:42 PM:

Is this screen just so far beyond help that a good cleaning won't tide you over until you can save up for a replacement screen? If it's a gain screen or a textured surface then, of course, cleaning is probably out.

Just thinking it'd be a cheap way to get by until you can do the right thing.

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 12-11-2001, 07:09 PM:

Don, that stuff is Kilz, not kilt. Of course, many screens have skirts...

Evans, what can I say? I'm easily distracted watching a movie. If there is any reflection at all from behind the screen it drives me nuts. I particularly notice the "ghosts" on high contrast scenes and credits.

Gordon, that is a cool idea to vaccum (never could spell that word either) out the excess paint from the holes. I'll bet it works like a charm. I still think rolling on the paint is a better idea because of the probability of overspray, equipment setup time, and general fuss. (Painting silver excepted of course.)

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 12-12-2001, 02:29 AM:

The good thing to say about it at the moment is that it is dark and hard to see , but it looks quite yellow , the easiest thing to do is get a New piece of screen (or cloth) and compare to sections of the screen to see if there is a big difference ,there is a join in the screen as well which does not help, as I said before we have Amps to Spare but if we use the big Reels we can't have them up too high, only if going 20min reel to reel and there is up to 12 reels some times , Guess we should try cleaning first to see if it makes a difference.

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 12-12-2001, 08:27 AM:

If the yellow is from age and not tobacco smoke, you might find the screen is brittle and will tear if you apply too much pressure. You could end up replacing it because it falls apart when you attempt to clean it.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 12-12-2001, 09:38 AM:

Jerry said:

quote:

Evans, what can I say? I'm easily distracted watching a movie. If there is any reflection at all from behind the screen it drives me nuts. I particularly notice the "ghosts" on high contrast scenes and credits.

Yes, I notice reflections from behind the screen and I've noticed them in every theatre I've ever been to, and understand that it's just a "necessary evil". I would never mention it in my ratings or deduct for it unless it were really bad to the point that the average customer would notice it excessively. Even black objects reflect some light, especially those with smooth, shiny surfaces. Someone needs to invent a "dark bulb" that emits darkness instead of light for such uses. [I'm being very facetious].

------------------
Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Information Site

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-12-2001, 09:59 AM:

To minimize those annoying reflections and reduce "bounce" off the backside of the screen, I find it helpfull to use inexpensive black car carpet (Home Depot) to create a wall around and in front of the speakers, cutting out holes for the speakers and ports to see through. You can see a picture at.... http://users.silverlink.net/~mueller/film17.htm

PS Hurley screens are about half the price of the competition. (At least mine was)
------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by Dennis Atkinson (Member # 345) on 12-12-2001, 03:20 PM:

Evans,
If you use a dark bulb, it would be a camera

Paul
What kind of port glass is it?
What lenses are being used?

Dennis

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-15-2001, 05:11 PM:

Everything backstage should be painted flat black and then there should be no problem

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 12-15-2001, 07:24 PM:

Sorry have not been able to reply, but was at the theatre last night as we screened the film "Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham " 11 reels and 15 min interval, he gave up on painting and we have decided to install a new screen on the curved frame (how do they install without it collapsing forward) the light out put is good , but the port glass looked scratched and aged (discolored) looking into the reflection the Lens looked dirty (anamorphic is connected to primary) No 2 had a a shimmering effect (clear focus then slightly Blurred)more noticed when titles and sub titles are shown, tried to adjust the gate tension this improved but not completely successful (hope not the intermittent)Hows this! there is a cinema supply with a Weststar (cut away front)for turret and a reverse scanner in place of the original ,at the moment he has Weststar Heads on RCA sound Heads ,so it looks like he wants to swap the head of 1 put a xenon on and run Big Reels ,only problem is that he or me will need to do a Change over (unless he gets a Tower)when running 11-12 reelers?

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 12-15-2001, 10:44 PM:

Wise decision to replace the screen, the port glass could be replaced inexpensively if it is scratched, replacing leneses would be nice but it sounds like there is a bunch of work needed to bring the place up to par and he needs to set priorities.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 12-16-2001, 12:05 AM:

To replace a screen, you have a pole on a dolly. The pole is high enough to reach the top of the screen. You put a cardboard tube on the pole which is the same height of the screen. The bottom of the tube is held at the same height as the bottom of the screen. You unhook one side of the screen, and start to roll it onto the tube, unhooking the laces (or springs) as you go, rolling the dolly across. When done, the pole is tipped down, and the full roll is slid off of the pole, the new screen is slid on and the procedure is reversed.

The dolly has big outriggers on three sides to keep stable. There is an art to lacing a new screen evenly, so I don't suggest you do it yourself. If you do, don't lace- buy the springs people are using now which simply hook to the frame and screen grommets. It's very important the screen size matches the frame; usually the company that supplied the orginal screen keeps records of the size.

Clear 1/4" Plexiglass is not a bad replacement for port windows if low cost is required.

In another topic, it was discussed that some towers would not fit "Harry Potter" (150 mins) so if you usually run long films, (11 full reels would be 220 mins!) check before buying. Also, if I remember, it took about 15 mins just to rewind.

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 12-16-2001, 12:43 AM:

Thanks John and others for your comments , yes I think it would be a job for cinema supply Techs to take care of and that is a good idea for removing and replacing screens, I've still got mine rolled up in my house ( hope thats the best way to store?) waiting for its New home.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 12-16-2001, 09:06 PM:

Yes, as the song goes; "Store it in a cool, dry place."

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 12-16-2001, 10:03 PM:

There is often a strip bearing the manufacturer's name, model and
exact dimensions on the edge of the old screen, which saves the awkward chore of trying to measure the size you need.

Though I've cut porthole glass from thin window glass for expediency
and economy, when funds are available, it's best to have a glazier
measure and cut a piece of water-clear optical glass, and sand and bevel the edges and corners for safety and convenience in removing it
for cleaning. When you look through the edge of the glass, if it's dark green, it will not transmit as much light as water-clear glass, and optical quality insures flatness to prevent distortion of the
image.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-17-2001, 01:48 PM:

John Walsh said: "Clear 1/4" Plexiglass is not a bad replacement for port windows if low cost is required"

I beg to disagree. Plexiglass tends to cause lots of flare in the image, due to internal light-piping. As Gerard notes, water-clear optical glass should be used, ideally having an anti-reflection optical coating. Don't be a CONTRAST KILLER!:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/reel/december99/pytlak.shtml

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 12-17-2001, 04:46 PM:

JP; When I said "low cost" I meant "movie theater low cost," which is very low indeed! I got the impression (though I may be wrong) cost was an issue at Paul's theater, and at $1.50 to 2.25 per square inch, I thought optical glass might be too much. I feel Plexiglass is better than really cheap plate glass.

Although, I also probably shouldn't suggest the cheapest things right away, either!

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 12-17-2001, 06:47 PM:

John, could you please expand on the idea of "light piping" in plexiglass? I was under the impression that plexi had a refractive index less than standard glass and could be better suited for port glass if the port "glass" was angled..

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 12-18-2001, 01:00 AM:

I wish it were my theatre then it would not in such a condition ,Automated projection ,just push a button from the Candy Bar you would have the best of both worlds ,contact with your customers and be able to control the viewing conditions from the auditorium ,focus, masking ,sound but I'd better Wake up now, but in reality the things we have been talking about are just normal house keeping in a theatre, if you were a customer would I come to this cinema ,the thing that I was fussy about was the first impression ,you need the pop corn fresh and smelling Yuuuumy is the place clean & tidy are my staff well presented and friendly , are all the lights working and on ,is the auditorium clean with all lights working and on, the non-sync suited to the movie playing "Muriel's Wedding" I had Abba music playing ,but the nost important is the presentation,is it the BEST it could be .

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-18-2001, 08:35 AM:

Jerry --- you are correct that with a lower refractive index, "light piping" should be less. Perhaps a better term would be more internal reflections and light scatter with Plexiglas. Plastics are also usually more easily scratched or damaged by improper cleaning than glass.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-18-2001, 09:39 AM:

For years ORC used to sell a coated plexiglass port material

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 12-21-2001, 02:45 PM:

Just a thought, and slap me if im crazy, but what about a whitewashing type of paint job. Talking about a pvc matte screen that is 30 years old and lost its luster. A gallon of satin flat water based latex mixed with deionized water to thin it out.

Any idea if that makes it worse or would be an improvement.

Not that i have 30 year old screens and have no money to buy new ones or anything.

Dave

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 12-21-2001, 04:02 PM:

I think if any work in painting the screen would only be Temp as the improvement would be very short term considering the age of the screen in question ( it's been up since the early 70s)and has more than paid it's way and deserves to be retired ,I guess the question here is (as mentioned earlier) priority of management or in this case lack of management ,as I remember this cinema in the early days it was the grandest Suburban Theatre in Auckland ,waterfall Curtain with coloured lights around it's arched proscenium ,lighting trough along both sides meeting at the roof ,big round Red glowing domes along the wall and on the ceiling a huge onclave with coloured lights , at this time all the lighting consists of is Red neon in the side troughs and the fading red Domes on the walls and he doesn't even drop the water fall (I do when I run sessions) but it doesn't have a auto shut off so you have to careful to stop it manually, for this theatre you need a real show man at the helm, I'll tell you the public have told they want improved first , the seats (too hard) to be kept tidy ,stero (surround) sound and good presentation ,then all the features of the cinema restored ,most of all a cinema experience they can't get in the New complexs ,the ability to get your food and drinks sit and take in the ambience of the place listen to the non-sync music and then the light show as it builds to the start of the Feature (the old projectionist insist that no white of the screen should be seen before the start of then film) you need to show the studio icon on the curtain , then open , I have always done it that way (when I've had curtains to use) it's meant to give the allusion that what you see is real, well enough of dream Land .

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 12-21-2001, 04:10 PM:

Whitewashing is a different process using slaked lime and/or white lead IIRC. If you mean you want to thin the paint to a weak consistency, that isn't a good idea. You might have a little less problem with holes filling in, but the brush marks will show and the coating will be uneven. Gordon's idea of using a vaccuum to clear the holes of excess paint is much better.

A simple way to tell whether painting will help increase brightness is to paint a section of white matte board or section of scrap screen, and when it is dry hold it up against the screen with the projected image showing. Only patched or extremely dirty screens benefit noticably.