Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Robbery in Utah (Hosers got hosed)

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Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 02-12-2002, 08:05 AM:

I must say that I'm not an expert in figure skating, but I am like some of you, an Olympic addict, have been since Lake Placid in '80. The crime was last night at the Ice Center (Delta Center). Good old fashioned "Russian Bloc" judging conspired to relegate probably the finest pairs skate in the history of the Olympics (by Canadians Pelletier & Sale) to SILVER, while the Russian couple kept that country's streak of 11 straight Olympic titles. The crowd knew it, numerous people interviewed like Dorothy Hamill were disgusted, even the "winning couple" knew it.

Never thought I'd speak out on a subject like this, but it's disgusting to learn that coaches have access to judges in practice, openly lobbying in some cases BEFORE the competition. I had trouble sleeping I was so angry. These people dedicate themselves as few of us will ever do, AND last night, they were perfect.

It's pre-judging is pretty obvious though, there was an American couple who were not expected to do much (Ina & Zimmerman). They turned in the performance of their lives, nearly flawless, 5th or 6th they ended up. They deserved silver, bronze at least. But they skated early, and the commentators at the time said that their skate was worthy of a medal at that point, but that the "big guns" were much later, and the Americans were doomed to be forgotten. And of course they were, a sidenote-story that will be forgotten in light of the more glaring theft of the gold.

What I love about the Olympics, is the respect that the fans have for all athletes and countries, you see it best when an American crowd rallies behind a Canadian pair like this, and even in events where the American is leading and then a foreigner turns in a great run to capture top spot, and the crowd still goes wild. It's all about appreciation of a great performance and respect, shows the true side of people.

Anyone else see it? I feel better now, on to skiing today, where the fastest one wins, go Canada!

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-12-2002, 10:02 AM:

I saw it, and you are exactly right about the silver and gold winners. And the American skaters put on the show of their careers and they deserved better. The crowd (and the skaters) knew what was going on, but thankfully the crowd showed some class as the awards were handed out despite the unfairness.

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- dave
Look at this! His chin strap has been cut!

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 02-12-2002, 03:17 PM:

Dave,

You said it very well..I feel bad for the Canadian Skaters they are the true Number one and they were extreemly gracious in defeat. They exhibit real "Class".

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-12-2002, 08:20 PM:

The Canadian team has apparently requested an investigation into this matter according tot he latest KSL news report. The whole world is up in arms over this obviously bought off win.
They reported that the Chineese judge is now mysteriously ill and will not be judging any more competitions.
Personally, I would assume that he cashed in his Rubles and is on a plane to some south sea island by now! Out here he is more likely to be tared and feathered!
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 02-12-2002, 08:52 PM:

I've seen these two interviewed a bunch of times today. It is the International Skaters Union (governing body) that has started the "inquest", of course that is like Enron doing an "internal audit".
It's a shame that the athlete's are being pestered about this, when really they have nothing to answer to, they did their job, it's the ISU that needs to tell 16,000 fans in the rink and viewers around the world why they made us all feel dumb. There's a press conference in the morning. The Canadian Team I'm sure want answers as the world does, but there is no indication of any sort of appeal by them, this is BIG news all day here. The skaters are at peace, they did their best, and are proud of themselves. So much class. They'll be on Leno tonight, they are household names around the world, I believe in this case silver will be worth much more than "tainted" gold. The decision won't change, the only way would be if some judges admitted to the "fix", but that won't happen. Same pool of judges for the rest of the games, hope nobody else gets screwed.

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 02-12-2002, 10:07 PM:

Dave,
I am not a fan of figure skating, and I know very little about it, so I won't even begin to form an opinion on this one. However, NBC did an informal online poll on who should have won the pairs competition and a whopping 96% (after 200,000 votes) have said that the Canadians deserved the win. Looks the the US is behind the Canadians all the way. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 02-13-2002, 10:19 AM:

I heard on the morning radio news today, that a preliminary investegation has found that the French judge made a deal with the Russian judge. In the deal, the Russian judge persuaded the French judge (before competition) to agree to vote for the Russians in an exchange for the Russian vote during the "Ice Dancing" competition. It looks like this is really going to taint the image of the Winter Games.

It's a shame that these athletes work their entire life to get the chance to compete in the Olympic games, and some screwball judges ruin the whole thing.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 02-13-2002, 10:43 AM:

It kinda looks like the whole Olympics thing is getting a little twisted. The scandal over where the games were to be held before it even got started and now stuff like this. It's very sad that the games, which were once a place where politics and greed could be set aside are obviously no longer immune. I was watching a news article the other night and they were talking about the new high-tech helmets and clothing that they can wear that can shave 1/10 of a second off of their times. They test this stuff in wind tunnels. I also saw that one of our skaters had lost out her 1st place win by that same 1/10 of a second in a previous Olympics. Is it just me or is this whole thing getting just a bit bizarre?

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-13-2002, 07:06 PM:

I totally agree with you Greg. Its like when the ball teams went on strike. Baseball now has little or no meaning to a majority of the public, myself included.

Fortunately the local Olympic scandal was basically thrown out of court here in SLC way before this got off the ground. No one could prove anything! The real culprit here is ex mayor Corodini who is also getting royal treatment by the olympics people. I say Poo-tang to her! Go away!

I can bet that there will be a growing scandle from the figure skating thing. There will also be alot of reform in the judging in future games, but you really hit the main point here that an athlete wins by visually un-noticable fractions of a second. To me that makes watching them all very boreing, its all the same. It all looks basically the same on things like downhill, and Luge, etc. Pretty boreing. I will always support the Olympcs but its time for some MAJOR changes.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 02-14-2002, 11:16 AM:

Mark, I think you have probably had too many fish dinners. I think the Olympic Games are terrific and they are keeping me right in front of the TV Screen. While it's true that the speed is hard to comprehend while watching certain events, it is exciting waiting for the times to be posted. It 's unbelieveable when the top four spots are less than four 100th of a second apart.

The descrepancy in the skating is clear when watching the replay's on the monitor. I am sure this will be corrected. If this were to be swept under the table I might agree with you. However, at this point in time I will continue the cheer...U-S-A, U-S-A.

I am glad that you told me that you are no longer a baseball fan. I had just promised the White Sox's in Chicago that you would sing the National Anthem on opening day. I have just sent them a registered letter telling them you no longer are a fan.

Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 02-14-2002, 12:28 PM:

All this goes to show you that the WWF is more honest than the Olympics.

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 02-14-2002, 01:01 PM:

Charles...ya think?

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 02-14-2002, 01:06 PM:

Anyone who is shocked or upset or even concerned about this whole skating medal conspiracy makes me laugh. The olympics have been fixed for years, and they will continue to be fixed for years to come. Overlooking drug tests, bribing the comittee to get the games in your city, etc. Who cares. Any event that consideres ballroom dancing a sport is a joke.

p.s. Notice how the only games Americans have excelled in require heavy pot smoking? Congrats snow boarders!

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"Asleep at the switch? I wasn't asleep, I was drunk!" - Homer Simpson

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 02-14-2002, 02:07 PM:

Chad,

I am shocked, upset and concerned about what is going on with the Olympics.

Judging from what you say...you must be in concert with Homer Simpson

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 02-14-2002, 02:21 PM:

I seriously have to take a strong disagreement with some of the crap said about my fair city and our olympics.

First of all, glad to make you laugh so much.

The points about drug tests and bribing are so way off the mark I had to set you straight here.

First of all, here in the 2002 Winter Olympics, we have the most comprehensive drug testing program to date for the olympians. They must be tested upon arrival, and within one hour of EACH EVENT. That means plenty of testing. No drugged or doped athelete will compete period here.

Second, as to the so called BRIBERY scandal. What bribe exactly got the games to OUR CITY as you put it?

In this case, PRIVATE individuals using PRIVATE funds to purchase PRIVATE gifts to be given to other PRIVATE individuals working for other PRIVATE businesses with NO GOVERNMENTAL MONEY OR INFLUENCE, does not constitue BRIBERY. It is the same when lets say I go to a THEATER and give MY MONEY to the THEATER to show ME a MOVIE. Is this bribery? Sure why not?

Lets not forget that Nagano Japan gave more than 500 thousand dollars in actual CASH to get the winter olympics. Lets not forget that this type of cash and gift giving to win over the bid committee has been going on for a century now. Just because Salt Lake was the last one to do it, doesnt mean it was illegal. This has been proven in court. And every time the justice department refiles charges, they always get thrown out, because what was done is NOT ILLEGAL!!!

We did not BUY the games. We only played the game as it has been played for so very very long. We played the game for twenty years before we finally WON THE GAMES as it were. We are the most equipped and prepared city in the world for the games. We are even the largest city to have every hosted the games. Why would you think we would have to buy the games. This has never been proved anyway. How does anyone know that we wouldnt have won the bid anyway?

Suffice it to say, I am fed up with people crapping on Salt Lake with a bunch of nonsense!

As for the games all fixed? Oh come on. get real, in a timed event that doesnt wash at all. The judged ones, well apparently so.

WWF??? Wrestling honest? Give me a break.

Dave

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 02-14-2002, 02:24 PM:

Chad,

another thing, I SNOWBOARD!!!

I do not smoke pot.

All the snowboarders underwent serious drug testing. They all cleared. Do you think the stuff they did you could do stoned?? I have seen stoned boarders, they cant do this stuff!!! They all fall down.

Dave

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 02-14-2002, 06:55 PM:

OK Dave, chill. I wasn't picking on Salt Lake specifically when I mentioned bribing, but many places like Japan as you mentioned and China getting the games in a few years. Just don't think that a city like Salt Lake wouldn't try to buy an event that brings in so much revenue just because you live there and because I'm sure the mass majority of the people that inhabit the area are good, honest people. Nobody's stating that the people of Salt Lake are dishonest, but like politicians and leaders everywhere, don't think they're above bribery.

"PRIVATE individuals using PRIVATE funds to purchase PRIVATE gifts to be given to other PRIVATE individuals working for other PRIVATE businesses with NO GOVERNMENTAL MONEY OR INFLUENCE, does not constitue BRIBERY"

Dave - When those PRIVATE individuals just happen to decide which town gets the olympics, and the PRIVATE donors just happen to stand to make a lot of money off the tourism, I beg to differ. 'Hey, here's a new car. I sure would like the Olympics in my town.'

Finally, just because you, Dave, don't smoke pot, doesn't mean those guys don't. Did you watch the medal ceremony? Could their eyes have been any more bloodshot and glazed over? Nothing like rolling up a big fat one right before you get your hardware. There are plenty of ways to pass even the most rigorous marijuana tests, and I'm sure these guys know the tricks.

p.s. Bob, if you are truly shocked about what has probably been happening in the Olympics for 100 years, you may want to upgrade from the cave you have apparently been living in. It's just that this year they picked a judge that was too weak or honest or whatever to lie through their teeth and stand by their decision. So they ship her home before she can spill any more beans, and wait for whatever slap on the wrist they'll pretend to hand out. Remember, these events involve gambling and bragging rights.

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"Asleep at the switch? I wasn't asleep, I was drunk!" - Homer Simpson

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-14-2002, 07:02 PM:

Chad,

You need to go snowboarding in the nude and cool off a bit! Indeed it was private monies used, and in fact the whole bribrey case was basically thrown out of court and everyone aquitted. Nobody could prove any wrong doing by anyone, much less who picks their nose in the dark while driving down I-15. Be careful, you could get caught in a similar scandal if you're caught out there in the nude!
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 02-14-2002, 08:05 PM:

Bang on Dave. Corruption only occurs where it is tolerated. Sure, there's pretty good info that some IOC members over the years have made back-room deals and received perks, that's how the game was played. Doesn't mean SLC is crooked, no way. Doesn't mean the games are fixed. As for stoned 'boarders, as international athletes, these guys can be tested AT ANY TIME. The tests are pretty accurate, but only prove that the person has used drugs WITHIN the past so many days or weeks. So I'd suggest a medalist would be crazy to do it, lest he be stripped his medal. Drunk maybe, not stoned.

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 02-14-2002, 08:46 PM:

Chad.....The year is 2002, It is very important that you bring Waterloo into the 21st Century. We are all working for the common good. Someone posting above me said it was time to "chill out" that person, even if he eats fish, is correct it is time to chill out.

Time to join the games and get with the program. If you can't see your way clear to join the program...at least have a Maartini...you will feel better...I promise.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-14-2002, 09:38 PM:

Chad,
I'll second that suggestion of having a Marrtini. Go for it!
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Mathew Molloy (Member # 666) on 02-15-2002, 01:23 AM:

Bob,
Your handling of Chad's comments is as smooth and dry as that martini! I'm not taking sides here...but I'll take a martini!

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 02-15-2002, 02:04 AM:

Chad.. et al...

I am quite "chilled" here in utah.

Don't get me wrong, I only get upset at stupidity, not free thinking, as you are exhibiting. I however am a free thinker as well, and do not "chill" when I express my thoughts.

I know lots of pot smokers who board. Once again, they cannot do these stunts these medalists pulled off. The bloodshot eyes easily attributable to lets say..... COLD WINTER WEATHER... We get a lot of that here at the WINTER OLYMPICS!!!

But I am not a martini man.,... MIKES HARD LEMONADE.. AND SALMON.. LOTS AND LOTS OF SALMON...

As for finding ways of beating the tests... like i said, the pros up here know the tricks and know how to test for the tricks. Sketpisism is a fine quality, I have plenty of it. I applaud you on yours. But remember, fish and alcohol are great together.

You mistake my defense of Salt Lakes Bid for the olympics as blind faith in my fellow man. I dont trust anyone but Mark Gulbrandsen, and occasionally Brad Miller. Maybe Bob Maar but only when I am really drunk.

Bribery is when you pay a cop to not write a ticket, or when you pay a jury to find you not guilty, or to get a government contract. Buying the games as we did does not constitute bribery as the IOC is not a government agency nor does it answer to any government agency. It is the same when you go to the store and buy milk. For whatever reason you choose one brand over another, one kind over another. It isn't bribery, just good marketing on thier hand. All Salt Lake did is market our town better, using the necessary so called marketing techniques necessary to win over the customer, or the bid voters in this instance.

The same goes when there is only so many prints available of a movie. You have to prove to the studio why your theater is best for the run rather than another one. Same deal with the olympics. Just this time we had a better package to sell. So it came with perks for the voters.. so what? It wasnt wrong or immoral. By rules of business ethics, we did what was necessary, and not one person was harmed in the process.

That is until people all of the sudden decided it was wrong, and held up two people like they were the anti christs.

Besides, although I may be a member of this predominant church here, I think that they are as crooked as the next person, all of them are. When dealing with anyone, be prepared to start bleeding from the rear end.!!!

Dave

And yes I am quite proud of our town, we finally grew up and bought our way into the world!!! cant earn that right!!

Dave again.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 02-15-2002, 10:02 AM:

There was an interesting news article on NPR about a land swap that occurred between the US Forest Service and a developer so that the mountain that the skiing is being done on could be expanded. The developer gets an incredibly valuable piece of property at the bottom of the hill on which he plans to build resorts and condos after the games are over. In return the Forest Service got land that had/has very little value other than for the purpose of the games.
Add to things like this, the US government pouring in millions if not billions of tax payers' dollars on developing the site and you have some real money for officials to be bribed over.
Now did you want to think about how many millions in tourist dollars are being spent at the games?
It is pretty obvious that the bottom line here has much more to do with more than one guy giving money to one guy, etc, etc. We are probably talking about billions of dollars ultimately.
Paying out money to officials to locate the games, anywhere, has an enormous amount of financial outcome. Far more than a one guy to one guy scenerio. The very idea that there could have been some kind of misdeed involved in the selection of the city to host the games, and the magnitude of the reaction to those possible misdeeds has got to tell you something.

Just so we're on a level playing field (so to speak) Here's the deffinition of Bribery out of Websters
"The act or practice of giving or accepting a bribe. Bribery of a public official is a felony. Money or any other valuable consideration given or promised with a view to corrupting the behavior of a person, esp. in that person's performance as an athlete, public official, etc."

And for Bribe....
(Includes deffinition above plus)
2.Anything given or serving to persuade or induce. (The children were given candy as a bribe to be good)
3. to give or promise a bribe to (They bribed the reporter to forget what he had seen)
4. to influence or corrupt by a bribe (The judge was to honest to be bribed)
etc etc

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-15-2002, 11:36 AM:

CNN just announced that the Reuters news service says the gold is being taken away from the Russians and will go to the Canadians. Maybe there is justice after all sometimes.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020215/ts/olympics_figureskating_dc_2.html

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- dave
Look at this! His chin strap has been cut!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-15-2002, 12:35 PM:

It actually says that the Russians will also keep their golds as well.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 02-15-2002, 12:41 PM:

Actually, the russians keep thier gold, and the canadians get one as well. The french judge has been suspended.

And back to bribery, according to websters, then all parents should be locked away for all time. All parents are guilty of a felony, by bribing thier children with candy, or toys, or whatever.

There is a point where websters really must be left on the shelf.

It is true that millions were spent on public improvement and land development. The improvements were absolutely necessary. As for taxpayer dollars bieng used to fund the games, that isnt actually happening, other than the increased security, which was a by product of 9/11, not actually hosting the olympics.

From the olympics income, to actualy olypic related expenses, extracting necessary public improvements that would have happened in time anyway, Salt Lake had forcasted a small 38 million dollar shortfall, a far cry less than the 1.4 billion spent on the games.

To offset the loss, private donations have been made to cover the loss, making the games a zero balance deal.

It is true that the federal goverment put up nearly 1.7 billion dollars to Utah's improvements, and we are thankful, condidering that Utah never got jack squat for federal dollars in the past. We got a real freeway, light rail, more busses, and road improvements.

And Salt Lake becomes the new training center for not just the US winter olympians, but many other countries as well. The government owns most of the facilities used for the olympics, and will continue to operate them at a good profit level for the future, as the buildings are already paid for, once again by ticket sales, NBC broadcast rights, and company sponsorships.

Yes, I will agree that by definition bribery occurred. The indignations was started by people who were mainly confused as to how this quaint little mormon town got the olympics. No one seemed confused how Nagano japan got the games. They were a small farming community with one road. But that was ok, because the country of japan spent nearly 2 billion dollars of goverment money, 1.2 billion of it never recouped, to get the games there. Is that by definition corruption? More like stupidity.

Most people thought it was dumb to try to get the games because for every winter games city it was a financial disaster. Salt lake having been the largest winter city to host the games, was in a far better position to put on a games that would not lose money.

Yes there was collusion going on, in order to win the games. But the fact that a host city was willing to basically put out the front money for facilities does not mean that this was wrong or illegal. The fact that people were upset at it also means nothing. I remind you of the salem witch hunt of past. Everyone knew these people were witches, just because the majority said so. But in time like the salem deal, all about salt lake will be realized for what it was. A business deal. Nothing more, nothing less. The only shredding of evidence happened when people thought it was wrong when the accusations were made, only to find now that it was really not illegal after all, despite what a few, and I point out a few, people thought about it.

I do not mean to belittle that yes, collusion and bribery happened. But remember the extent of the damage, if any. Enron hurt thousands. The olympic bid we won didnt hurt anyone.

It is much like clinton and the sex scandal. Most reasonable people said "who cares". There are reasonable degrees of purgery, bribery, murder, speeding, whatever. using textbook examples takes out the human element.

I could go on and on, because I have plenty of time to be bored like this.

Dave

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 02-15-2002, 04:27 PM:

Yah... just a paltry $1.3 billion in taxpayers money http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa092400a.htm

"Economic Impact: The state of Utah reports that the 2002 Games will provide significant economic benefits to Utah, including $2.8 billion in economic output,$9700 million in income to Utah workers and business owners, and $236 million in gross state and local government tax revenue." http://www.evcc.ut.net/olympics.html

That is what bribery is all about.......

As far as gold medals....If they're going to give out more than one first prize per event, what's the sense? Why not give everyone a gold medal? Then, everything will be very PC and no one will feel bad because they didn't win.
If the Russians didn't really win first place, take the damn thing away and give it to the ones that did. Geezus

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 02-15-2002, 05:49 PM:

I will be very surprised if, in two or three or ten years from now, the average Utah resident really sees much economic benefit from the Olympics. It seems like a rich man's affair for the benefit of their peers. The rank-and-file here are still making low wages and the Olympics won't do much to help that. Meanwhile, artificial property value increases where I live have prevented anyone who actually grew up here in the last 30 years from owning a home here.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-15-2002, 10:15 PM:

Greg A. said,
"The rank-and-file here are still making low wages"

It has always been my feeling that one can achieve any thing or any sort of wage one desires in this great country, and in an honest way. Its that sort of negative thinking/statement that keeps the rank and file, and their wages where they are. Believe me, the rank and file wages are not going to shoot up to the 6 figure range on their own while they sit around and wait! Having spent the majority of my life in a much larger city where opportnitys were unlimited, I can attest to the fact that the opportunities out here in Utah/Salt Lake City are just as good as in the larger city, and in many ways even better.

Greg M.,
Alot of the big expense in this Olympics is due to the 911 event and the terrorist threat resulting in the extreme security we have here. Infact I am pretty sure that is the largest single expense of the games, costing far more than all the building expenses for all of the venues that were specially constructed for the games. Otherwise I think you'll find that the cost of the games is really no more than any of the others were.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 02-15-2002, 10:47 PM:

Greg,

That article you refer to is now invalid. The report asked for by John McCain and compiled by the GAO turned out to be false in its accounting methods. It listed all expenses paid for by the federal goverment SINCE the games were awared, not directly related to current expenditures.

the report has been changed, and now Sen. John McCain refuses to comment on the new report. The new report shows that most of the expenses were not directly related to the olympics, but were awarded to utah to upgrade public facilities to bring us into the twentieth century, so we werent an outright embarassment when hosting the games.

Like I had said, yes, we did much to ge the games, and as a result, we got more federal goodies, goodies that would have gone somewhere, even if salt lake didnt get the games. It was money to be spent anyway, not new money raised by any new tax. It went for good cause, creating a better infrastructure for a pretty fine city that could never seem to get a fair shake from the federal dollars committee.

Now back to bribery, it wasnt like the olympics came to salt lake, and promised all kinds of kickbacks to the politicians if we spent billions on them. It was in fact the other way around. And there was no "hey if you give us the olympics, we will like give you free stuff". We gave them the free stuff long before the voting began. This time, our fifth try at it, we just happened to have the best goodies to give out.

Then again, maybe our tax dollars are best spent on the rock and roll hall of fame, rather than an interstate freeway system.

Tax dollars will get spent, and in this case, we got plenty to improve our infrastructure. Better this way than to keep building museums of natural grass roots beer drinking.

Dave

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 02-15-2002, 11:04 PM:

You are so missing the point.
anyway....go to this page and pick any article http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=federal+funding+2002+olympics&btnG=Google+Search
are they all wrong?
And what about the income from this event are those stats wrong too?
The topic was bribery remember?

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 02-16-2002, 07:38 AM:

I hope we never give up on hosting these types of events. Governments waste billions of our dollars every year anyway, we can't let the bad apples spoil it for the rest of us who enjoy sport, competition, arts, nature, whatever. When we hosted Calgary 1988, it brought world class facilities that make money every year, and with our governments complete lack of support to our athletes, it's the only reason we have ANYONE winning any medals.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-16-2002, 10:02 AM:

Thats true, I forgot about the I-15 replacement being folded into that figure. That alone would make the actual costs of the games way inflated. The interesting thing is that the I-15 replacement project had nothing to do with the Olympics. It had more to do with earthquake upgrading of all the bridges along that 19 mile stretch. All of the bridges were replaced. The I-15 road project is/was the largest road project going on in the U.S. at the time. There are still hundreds of other bridges in this are that are slated for upgrade(where applicable) or outright replacement. Also, a main bridge going into SLC International Airport was replaced late last fall due to it sinking to far at one end. On another note the I-15 project came in way under budget, and was comlpeted way ahead of schedule. So should all of this be folded into the costs. I don't think so........
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 02-16-2002, 10:17 AM:

The real point I was trying to make was that anytime you have (in this case billions) of dollars exchanging hands, based on the outcome of where, when or how any event is to occur, you have the potential for great corruption. The cost of a college tuition or new car is tinker toys compared to the amounts of money we are talking about. Even if it were not billions but measely millions, the potential would be the same. Bribery is bribery even if it cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt and corruption is corruption.
The real shame is that this topic is tied at all to a discussion of the Olympics.

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 02-16-2002, 10:50 AM:

Why is it that people have this idea that because they are the olympics, things are pure and untainted? I'm not the only one saying these things by the way, listed to Jim Rome or a number of other sports hosts and they'll say the same. Drug tests overlooked, bribes taken, etc, etc. The thing I haven't heard anybody else mention is wasn't there 5 judges that all voted for the Russians? Why are they just picking on the French judge. Oh, that's right. She couldn't lie through her teeth like the other four apparently did. So send her back to France and suspend her and make her the scapegoat, covering the fact that there are 4 other judges that also may have taken influence. I agree that after having seen the routines, the Canadians truly performed better. I guess the bottom line is that although I'm not at all surprised by this, as the world seemed to be coming united against terrorism, here comes the seperation again.

p.s. Bob - I am united for the common good, although I'm not sure we may agree on what that is. My good includes not being blind to the obvious, or thinking my opinion is better because I have more posts and a picture. The program I'm with doesn't even like martinis, but good ol' beer. Not light beer, not some James Bond wannabe drink, but beer. And occasionally whiskey. Thank you, good day.

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"Asleep at the switch? I wasn't asleep, I was drunk!" - Homer Simpson

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 02-16-2002, 04:07 PM:

I forgot to add, thanks much, Greg for agreeing that bribery is likely. We may love our country, state, and city, but that doesn't mean that at the end of the day, it's still all about the $$$. Its nobody's fault, that just seems to be the way it is.

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"Asleep at the switch? I wasn't asleep, I was drunk!" - Homer Simpson

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 02-16-2002, 05:58 PM:

I think therefore I am.

The real point is bieng missed here. Before I get to the real point, let me clarify that I am not blind to the obvoius because the olympics are involved. I am not as think as you dumb I am.

Jim Rome? This guy is a columnist on tv. Thats it, pure and simple. Might as well quote Rush Limbaugh when it comes to politics. You can read all the articles in the world that prove any point you want. Pure and simple, if you want to find something, you will if you look hard enough. You want to prove the West Memphis Three were satan worshipers, you can prove it. On the other hand, you can disprove it, IF you look for it. My point is, whatever you want to believe, you will believe that and that alone, unless you have a mind open enough to really seek and see the truth.

Here is what is commonly missed in this whole debate...

1. No force was brought to bear in the bid process.
2. Members of the IOC stood to gain nothing by awarding to SLC.
3. Freebies were exchanged during the process.
4. Nothing was promised or extorted by any party to get the games.
5. Gifts Were given. I give gifts to my daughter. So she will love me. I am guilty of just about every felony known to man.
6. No cash ever changed hands.
7. No promise of cash was ever made.
8. No public funds were used to get the bid.
9. No public funds were used directly to fund the olympics.
10. Taxpayer money did not go to waste.
11. No new tax was levied to pay for any infrastructure improvements.
12. I am not a daisy.

I think we get caught on definitions and forget to remember that varying degrees of definitions apply. To be upset at bribery as a whole does not take into account the thousands of varying degrees. If you put a dollar amount on the degree, then you lose the whole point. It isn't about the money, it is about the actual bribe, the human cost, and the outcome.

In this case, the actual bribe was gifts given well in advance. No IOC member gained any financial incentive by voting for salt lake. It is the same as when you shop for a car. Certain dealers will offer you differnt things JUST to get you in the door, not even tied to the purchase of the car. Free trips for test drives, happens all the time. Happens with furniture stores that give free lunch on weekends or radio stations that give away tickets and cd's when doing remotes. This is nothing new, nor illegal or even remotely immoral. The only negative implication was that this was SOMEHOW wrong. Poeple have been trying to create a new Watergate for years, but all falls short. YOu have to have proveable culpability, and in this case, none exists. Proven time and again, regardless of what any article of whatever columnist or writer may want you to believe.

The human cost is a positive one. Not one person was deprived of anything, not housing, not shelter, not food, not tax money, not retirement funds, not a penny. In fact the benefit to the state and its citizens are great, and all not yet even realized.

The outcome, no loss. And a futurous gain. Sure there are problems with judging, and hopefully changes will come. The investigation is not over in the judging scandal, just this chapter of it. The IOC wants the press to concentrate on the games as they happen, not spend all thier time on the scandal that happened with the judging. Do we want to take away from the individual glory that these atheletes trained thier whole lives for, just so we can continue to rip into the IOC on judging? It will continue to investigate, AFTER the games finish. Let the atheletes have thier day, then the judges will have thiers too.

I do recall that another bid city in the USA was also guilty of bribing the voting members of the IOC at the same time SLC was. However they happened to shred nearly 2000 pages of documents just in time to prevent any real accounting of what was given. The head of this bid city, now is on the chair of the USOC. Nice payback for keeping the scandal in SLC and not letting is spread to, I forget where it was, washington, or oregan, cant recall the state now.

Hey, mormons are as crooked as anyone, but bieng crooked and committing a crime are two different things. Plenty of innocents get caught up in criminal behavior, and I know plenty of crooked people who are too afraid of getting caught, so they keep thier hands clean.

The difference between guilt and innocence, is a matter of timing.

Dave

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 02-16-2002, 06:02 PM:

Hey bob, I think Chad is ripping on your martini.

And why no picture chad? Hey I am an ugly fart, and even I got one up here. It took a death threat by bob to do it too.

Ps... not blind. Perfect 20/125 vision.

Dave

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 02-16-2002, 06:22 PM:

Dave ,

Your right he is ripping my Martini to pieces...know what that leaves more for me.

I wonder what has been added to the water in his city. It is too bad that he seems to have a great deal of pent up anger at life in general. I have lived long enough to realise that change of any kind takes a great deal of time. The world that I grew up in, no longer exists. they 40's and the 50's were a great time to grow up. Yes, I can recall getting under my desk in school when the sirens sounded and watching neighbors build bomb shelter's in the back yards. They becme great hide outs later on.

Family always came first for me and I think it does for you. I would not trade one moment, I plainly have no regrets. I chose to enjoy the Olympics, and most major sporting events. I enjoy my children who are all grown and have their own families and the very best part of life is the Grand Children...it's pure love.

Well, I'm not going to change Chad and he is not going to change me. I will go downstairs now and watch the Olympic Ski Jumping and have a Beefeater Gin Gibson Straight - up. Yes I will have one for Chad.

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 02-16-2002, 08:48 PM:

I myself am a military brat, and also know about sirens and drills. Lived on a base for many a wonderful year. While not a martini man, I love a good cold Mikes hard lemonade. Yum Yum.

Somewhere in this series of posts it was mentioned that with so many people saying its so, there must be some truth to it. And also with so many people high up with news shows and the such reporting it as so, there must be some truth to it.

Being black history month, I have been watching much on the subject. It does bring to mind a time in our country when slavery was not just legal, it was expected. With so many people saying so, there must have been some truth to it bieng ok to own black people. However, with time passed, you will be hard pressed to find too many people willing to say that now. In fact, last I heard, they could vote, run for office, even own a home. It takes time for people to realize that just because so many people say so, doesn't actually make it so. In fact, last I remember from school, our country was built on the premise that an individual was entitled to a fair trial in front of a jury of his peers. The people responsible got that, and the judge threw it all out, because no crime had been committed. No matter whatever columnist or sports guy may say.

I have my own opinions, I express them loudly, I just dont have my own show to do it on. And if I did, would I be listened to as if I knew it all?

Hey brad, maybe we can get a film tech radio show. Just a little internet radio broadcast show. We could rant and rave about how much we all love our friend and god... george lucas.

Dave

Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 02-16-2002, 11:13 PM:

Hey... did you see the men's speedskating tonight (Saturday, February 16th)? Was this another robbery? I guess you can't blame the Australian guy for accepting the gold medal but... well... I guess I just don't know what the rules are for this particular sport.

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 02-17-2002, 06:38 AM:

That Aussie's my new hero! You know, short-track is a real crap-shoot anyway, and it's probably tougher to MAKE the final, so he deserves credit. We were shown many replays, and actually the wipe-out was a good thing for our part of the world. As I see it, without the fall, it was Korea, someone else (can't recall country), then US for bronze, Canada fourth. With it, US and Canada move up a spot each for medals, and a 4-time Olympian (and bronze medal winner from '92) gets the gold.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 02-18-2002, 10:30 AM:

I think Apollo Anton Ono was a lock for the gold. He was the guy in front. He is of asian linieage, so you may have thought it was Korea, but he is American and would've won. You're right that it is a crap-shoot, and he handled he reduction to silver with grace. The strange thing is that if I understand the rules correctly, when 4 skaters go down, they are supposed to re-run the race. The Austrailian that won the gold is the only one of the 5 that didn't go down, so he got the gold. Coincidentally enough, the chief judge was Austrailian and said the results stand. Maybe that's just using the rules to you country's advantage, or maybe I'm unclear on the rules and one of our aussie members can clear up the details? Regardless, congrats on Austrailia for their first gold ever in the winter games.

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"Asleep at the switch? I wasn't asleep, I was drunk!" - Homer Simpson

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 02-18-2002, 10:35 AM:

I liked the interview with the Canadian skater guy told he was going to get a gold medal too. He said something like "I hope they award us a bronze medal also, so we can have the complete collection" I love it

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 02-18-2002, 04:53 PM:

To further placate the IOC, International Skating Union is proposing that in the future, judging panel will be made up of 14 (now 9), but of those 14, only 7 will "count", and none will know who at the time.
This should limit the effectiveness of these "back room deals".
But, they won't vote on it until June IF they decide to put it on the agenda, more talk, and I realize even more why I don't care about figure skating, embarrassed I even brought this up. I won't see it again until Turin '06.

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 02-18-2002, 04:59 PM:

Chad, the reason that they are not re-running the race is that the race was completed. There was a crash, and skaters went down, but they still had the ability to get their skates across the finish line. Had the crash or their injuries prevented the others from finishing, they would have redone the race. I learned all of this through interviews on the Today show this morning. I'm really happy for the Australian fellow, these things can happen, and I think he won fair and square. It's an interesting story, and it's been a crazy Olympics. What's next?

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 02-19-2002, 05:22 PM:

On the skating judging, the new system will be ironed out and put in place by the international skating union, and voted upon by all participating countries. It is unlikely that it will be voted down. As for how the judging comes about, of the fourteen proposed, a computer will randomly select seven judges just before the skaters hit the ice, and the judges will not know which ones until the scores are posted. It is also likely that a pool 25 to 50 judges to choose from at olympic events or world championships will be created to further offset the possibility of fixing.

The IOC will score the same as the ISU or whatever the hell its called, if the system gets changed.

I hate skating too. I just love a good looking canadian woman! Damn she fine! Kind of looks like kate beckinsale, but with talent.

Dave

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-19-2002, 05:29 PM:

I think she falls under Canadian Natural Resources

Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 02-19-2002, 05:57 PM:

Awwww, c'mon -- you know the WWF is more honest than the Olympics!

BTW, are there any any Film-Techers who will be showing WrestleMania on the big screen?

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 02-24-2002, 07:05 PM:

Congrats to the Canadian Hockey Team - Well Done. Overall I really enjoyed the Olympics in Salt Lake. I think they did a terrific job.
Now the Federal Government should drop the case against the people responsible for bringing the Olympics to Salt Lake we can get on with the future. They did nothing that hasn't been done before and will be done again. Put it to bed.

Great Games...Great City and we will see you in two years for the Summer Games.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-24-2002, 07:30 PM:

Bob,
They did drop the case. About 3 or 4 months ago. When it came down to it no one could prove anything.
Mark @ Salt Lake City

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 02-24-2002, 07:39 PM:

A great job hosting these games. You Americans kicked ass (previous best 13 medals, now 32 or 3 is it?). Clearly a great job preparing both on and off the snow and ice. In other countries, often the media talks about stuff like "will the US be over-patriotic" and other garbage like that. But that's only brought on by media, clearly when you get to the real people, the US is just like anywhere, gracious hosts, wonderfully congratulating champions from ALL countries and of course, celebrating their own. We had our best Winter Games too, 17 medals I think, and of course, absolutely ecstatic to have won hockey gold for the first time since '52 (women too). It's bedlam up here. Add Utah to my list of places I've not been to, and now want to visit. Great job, come visit us in Vancouver/Whistler 2010....

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-24-2002, 11:33 PM:

Dave,
Be sure to look us up when U visit here. Its been pretty amazing to say the least. In spite of Budwiser causing a near riot last night I think we ought to do this again next winter just for the heck of it. A couple of more times around and we might actually get real beer and real martini's for

Mark @ Home

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 02-25-2002, 04:38 AM:

Dave,

the Olympics here is not a set thing. One of the major problems is the " Sea to Sky " highway which according to some people is a " dangerous " highway that will require revamping before the Olympics is to take place here in BC. Also is the fact if the provincial government will put up the $$$.

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 02-25-2002, 04:42 AM:

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 02-25-2002, 07:37 AM:

Ron, here's hoping our notorious bureaucratic red-tape does not get in the way of this one, I'd like to be there! Speaking of beer, I noticed at many of the venues people chugging Bud in BOTTLES. I've never seen bottles allowed in a seating area. They must've been PLASTIC??????

Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 02-25-2002, 05:47 PM:

Bob M: Canada pulled off a hockey double over the US -- women on Thursday, men on Sunday.

Big Media overhypes the Olympics as a figure skating soap opera. Figure skating involves "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes". Hockey involves women and men playing it "Because We Want To".

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 02-25-2002, 06:30 PM:

Personally, I am tired of figure skating!

First, with all of the experience that these skaters have, why do they always seem to give lousy performances during competition?!

Secondly, Sara Hughes was MAGNIFICANT, and she really deserved to win! Nonetheless, rather than talking about Sarah's outstanding performance, too many are focusing on Michelle Kwan's fall from grace, and how Sarah's performance and the circumstances surrounding this was just a quirck of fate! Notice during her post performance interviews, Sarah said that she was there to have fun...isn't this what it it is supposed to be about! CONGRATULATIONS SARAH!

Over the years I have seen many news shows that discussed figure skaters. Some of these shows suggested that behind the " fairytale princess facade", many of these skaters are mean, competitive, arrogant, snobbish prima donnas.....I wonder if it is true?

Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 02-25-2002, 06:40 PM:

"Little Girls in Pretty Boxes" shows figure skating and gymnastics as full of people with abnormal behavior -- eating disorders, major injuries, Mussolini-style coaches, death. The book deals with those two sports because they're the most overhyped in every Olympics. Search it out from your local library if it's in there.

As for me? NBC turns the Olympics into a figure skating soap opera, sets off an international incident, and tape-delays everything -- all to get ratings. Another reason I got rid of my TV almost 4 years ago.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-25-2002, 06:47 PM:

Will K. said....."Personally, I am tired of figure skating!"

Well Will,
I don't think any of us here knew that you were a figure skater.....? We all thought you wanted a film life like the rest of us have. I realize the film life may not come with all the glory, but how can you be tired of figure skating????? Perhaps you should consider the Skeleton or something along those lines.
Mark @ NEW GTS

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 02-25-2002, 06:51 PM:

OK MARK....I will rephrase! I am tired of watching and hearing about figure skating....so there, waaaa, nanny nanny boo boo

etc, etc etc!!!!!!!!!!!! and any other kindergarten whim you can think of.....

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 02-25-2002, 07:02 PM:

Charles,

Both the Women and the Men's Canadian teams earned their wins. They were both the best during their games. All honor and glory belong to these athletes.

Will,

I love to watch the figure skating, the grace, the moves, if done correctly are a picture to behold. I could not do it. I can't even stand straight on a skate....but I can cut a perfect aperture plate.
Unfortunately for me, they have not created a metal for that as yet or I would go for it. Even though I spent most of my career in management I use to and still do like to cut the plates.

I think at my age.. ten months older that Paul I would do the skeleton. Any challenges out there?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-26-2002, 07:12 PM:

Here is an interesting poll from the Salt Lake Trib today......
http://www.sltrib.com/02262002/images/olypoll022602.pdf

Mark @ New GTS

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 02-28-2002, 09:41 PM:

Darn...I miss the Olympic's.. Let's start a movement to have them all year round. I want you all to write to anyone you want. Let's do it one more time in Salt Lake.

I think Chad should represent Film-Tech at the meeting.

The following people will participate:

Skeleton Race