Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Do you pump the gas, or are you lazy?

This is topic Do you pump the gas, or are you lazy? in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-28-2002, 05:01 AM:

This is rather interesting...

STATIC FIRES

Bob Penkes of Petroleum Equipment Institute is working on a campaign to try and make people aware of fires as a result of "static" at gas pumps. His company has researched 150 cases of these fires. His results were very surprising

1) Out of 150 cases, almost all of them were women.

2) Almost all cases involved the person getting back in their vehicle while the nozzle was still pumping gas, when finished and they went back to pull the nozzle out the fire started, as a result of static.

3) Most had on rubber-soled shoes.

4) Most men never get back in their vehicle until completely finished. This is why they are seldom involved in these types of fires.

5) Don't ever use cell phones when pumping gas

6) It is the vapors that come out of the gas that cause the fire, when connected with static charges.

7) There were 29 fires where the vehicle was reentered and the nozzle was touched during refueling from a variety of makes and models. Some resulting in extensive damage to the vehicle, to the station, and to the customer.

8) Seventeen fires that occurred before, during or immediately after the gas cap was removed and before fueling began. Mr. Renkes stresses to NEVER get back into your vehicle while filling it with gas. If you absolutely HAVE to get in your vehicle while the gas is pumping, make sure you get out, close the door TOUCHING THE METAL, before you ever pull the nozzle out. This way the static from your body will be discharged before you ever remove the nozzle.

As I mentioned earlier, The Petroleum Equipment Institute, along with several other companies now, are really trying to make the public aware of this danger. You can find out more information by going to............ www.pei.org Once here, click in the center of the screen where it says "Stop Static".

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 06-28-2002, 06:46 AM:

Not a problem for us in New Jersey (one of only two states that does not permit self-serve), but a good lesson when on the road in other states. I wonder if the guy who researched that discovered that most of the damned fools who torched themselves came from the Garden State?

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 06-28-2002, 08:57 AM:

From the report:
"All but one of the accidents occurred with conventional (not Stage II vapor recovery) nozzles. " The newer vapor recovery nozzles are just as easy to use as a plain nozzle. They don't have the black rubber condom over the nozzle, but use a series of small holes near the tip of the nozzle to grab the vapor. My guess is that the insurance companies will be requiring the use of these nozzles soon.

FWIW, static is banned in south Florida unless it occurs as part of lightning.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-28-2002, 09:58 AM:

Conductive shoes are required in most industrial settings where flammable solvents or static-sensitive electronic components are handled.

Anti-static treatment (e.g., Static Guard, Staticide) of carpeting and seats in automobiles would help prevent static buildup, and the risk of static sparks igniting fuel vapors (not to mention annoying shocks).
http://www.techco.com.sg/dis_esd2.html
http://www.genesis16.net/esd.htm
http://www.bestpakcompany.com/staticcontrol.htm

Hopefully most of you have noticed that you don't get shocks when rewinding most prints anymore, since the introduction of KODAK VISION Color Print Film, which has a conductive layer to help prevent static buildup and reduce dirt attraction:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/products/lab/2383.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 06-28-2002, 10:48 AM:

I now live in California, that progressive state to the left of New Jersey and Texas. Out here I have yet to see a gas station attendant who will pump gas for you. It's all self serve. In fact, I never go in side anymore because most pumps take plastic. Next we are looking forward to automatic pumps, you just pull in and the fuling just happens. They pull your credit off of some transmitter or something.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-28-2002, 10:50 AM:

I get a little nervous when pumping gas into my car when some person in front of me is jabbering on a cell phone, doing the green-apple two-step and hammering the gasoline in their tank to "top it off." Jeeze..I try to get out of there as fast as I can...

In the olden days of the military aviation, the fuel trucks were grounded with bonding straps to the ramp pad-eyes, and so where the aircraft. I think they required 3-point grounding with three different pad-eyes. In addition to that, there was separate grounding from the fuel truck to the aircraft. They took no chances.

It has been about 40 years since I was involved with that, so I am only going on what I *think* I saw.

I never recall seeing a person re-fueling an aircraft with AVGAS without using some kind of non-static gloves, and never saw someone refueling said aircraft while that person was wearing something other than rubber-souled shoes.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-28-2002, 11:13 AM:

Self-serve is illegal in Oregon. Every time someone introduces a bill to bring back self-serve, there's a big uproar and it never gets off the ground.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-28-2002, 11:23 AM:

Yeah, David. And the gas station people in Oregon almost have a hear attack when they see some out-of-stater wheel in there about 90MPH, get out of the car, then stuff their cell phone in there ear to make themselves look important, and reach for the pump nozzle.

Last I heard was that bill was again moot. But I understand that they allow "assisted" fueling by motorcycle drivers. Now who actually holds the nozzle, I don't know....

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-28-2002, 12:14 PM:

Oregon does have those commercial fuel stops or whatever they're called. Businesses can get special permits so their drivers can serve themselves at these places. But the general public can't go there.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-28-2002, 12:27 PM:

Wow. Full Service. Now that's something I haven't seen in a while. Anywho, I've never gotten back in my car while the fuel was pumping, but I have reached in the car to grab something. I assume the static is caused by rubbing against the fabric on the seat?

So why is self-serve illegal in NJ and Oregon?

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-28-2002, 01:04 PM:

In Oregon, the big arguments against self-serve gas are 1) Safety, and 2) Preserving jobs for gas station attendants. Another argument is that some people, especially the elderly, have difficulty pumping their own gas. Usually when someone introduces a bill to bring back self-serve, it's with the condition that service stations would still have to have attendants to pump the gas for those who can't or won't pump it themselves.

This isn't full-serve either. It's mini-serve. They pump the gas and take the money and that's about it. Maybe once a year an attendant will offer to wash my windshield for me -- usually I have to do it myself.

The static thing is an interesting issue. If I'm wearing Levi's (which is most of the time), I almost always get shocked when I get out of the car and touch the door to close it...

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-28-2002, 01:22 PM:

David Stambaugh said: "If I'm wearing Levi's (which is most of the time), I almost always get shocked when I get out of the car and touch the door to close it..."

SHOCKING!!!

Use an anti-static agent in your clothes dryer (e.g., "Bounce" sheets), and spray your car upholstery and carpeting with a topical anti-stat like Static Guard or Staticide or Kiwi Endust for Electronics:
http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~jsmith/MSDS/STATIC%20GUARD%20ALBERTO-CULVER.htm
http://www.balloonhq.com/faq/howpop.html

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 06-28-2002, 01:31 PM:

...I don't think that I would ever thought that a static charge would ignite vapors, so I've learned something new.

Most gas stations around here are self-serve, yet there still are the ones that have something resembling full-serve, and of course, none of those are open 24/7. So, I generally go the self-serve route (generally with slightly better prices), and I never walk away and leave the fueling-up process unattended!

*ponders something for a moment*

Wow, I can't even recall the last time I got zapped with static when getting out of my car!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-28-2002, 02:10 PM:

Gracia said: "Wow, I can't even recall the last time I got zapped with static when getting out of my car! "

In the Northeastern USA, it usually occurs in the winter, when the humidity is low.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-28-2002, 02:10 PM:

Up here on a nice warm day when the humidity is low, it can be a chore to get out of the car without getting zapped by static electricity. It is possible to draw an arc 1/4 of an inch long!

The easiest way I found to eliminate using nasty language is to gound my hand on the car's metal as I get out. Sometimes you'll get zapped when you get in. Draw the arc with the key. The finger contact with the key distributes the charge enough where you will not feel the zap, even though you see and hear the arc from the end of the key.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-28-2002, 02:17 PM:

When rewinding prints that don't have an anti-static conductive layer like the one Kodak VISION Color Print Films use, keep a hand on the metal bench or rewind so the moving film doesn't build up a static charge on your body. Or wear conductive shoes, or a wrist grounding strap.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-28-2002, 02:37 PM:

I don't think I've ever been zapped when getting out of a car. Probablly because it's always so phuggin humid 'round these parts!

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-28-2002, 03:02 PM:

John, that reminds me of high-speed rewind on plastic wheels where the spindles are not grounded!

The static build up is so strong, the fireworks really fly!!!!!I have observed strong discharges in access of one inch! Now, that's one helluva spark!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-28-2002, 03:09 PM:

Paul: Before conductive KODAK VISION Color Print film, winding prints was like the belt in a Van de Graaf generator, happily moving and depositing static charge, allowing it to build up to "shocking" levels.

http://www.amasci.com/emotor/vdg.html
http://www.amasci.com/emotor/belt.html

http://home.attbi.com/~kr4495/vdgg/vdgg.html

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-28-2002, 03:22 PM:

John: Shocking levels, indeed.

They will flat out knock the unsuspecting operator flat on his or her butt! Been there....

Being hit with discharges like that....well, ONCE is once too often.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-28-2002, 05:43 PM:

We don't have self-serve here (yet) and it's very humid here so I doubt that would be a problem.

Cell phones! Well...That's another story altogether. Even the kids have cellulars.

I first encountered the problem of static during the year I spent in Detroit. I lived in fear of doorknobs.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-28-2002, 06:11 PM:

I haven't had a car for almost twenty years now, but during the few years that I did have one, 1978-82, almost all petrol stations were self-service. The nearest one to where I lived was still attendant service at the time, and as I only drove about five or ten miles a month, I could always fill up there, so I have never had the 'pleasure' of using a petrol pump. I doubt if there is a station anywhere in London now which is not self-service, and few elsewhere; The odd one in a very small country village maybe. My parents never owned a car, but my father used to hire one during the one week of our holiday each year in the '60s. I think all stations were attendant served at that time.I'm quite surprised that you still have any non self service stations in the USA, almost twenty years after we got rid of them. Keep them, self-service is a pain.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-28-2002, 06:27 PM:

You can lay a xenon lamp on the rewind bench, still in the "clamshell" of course, then connect the positive lead to something grounded. Get a good charge on yourself by rewinding some film then touch the negative end of the lamp. You'll get a brief flash of light as the static discharges through the lamp.

Happened to me, once, by accident. I had a lamp, in a box on the bench because I just got finished checking-in a new shipment. I had to rewind some film so I set it aside. When I picked up the lamp the lead touched against the metal frame of the bench and, "Blink!!", the lamp lit up! I thought it was cool so I did it again for the other guys. We all took turns doing it.

I used to do it for other people from time to time when I was training them about xenons. It makes a neat little diversion that just happens to be quasi-educational too.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 06-28-2002, 08:21 PM:

Not just cell phones, but once a person across the pump from me LIT UP A CIGARETTE!!

There are also those warnings about placing a gas container on the ground before filling it, as leaving it on a car or in a truck bed could cause a static spark. Nobody listens to that, either.

Ken -- I've been shocked plenty of times getting out of the car in the fall/winter months (although Florida never really has winter months). As painful as it sometimes is, it brings me back to my print building days. *sigh*

Personally, I think it should all be full-service. And bring back the on-site mechanics instead of those stupid trendy espresso bars ala "Starbucks"

=TMP=

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 06-29-2002, 12:52 AM:

John 'the Human Search Engine' Pytlak said: "In the Northeastern USA, it usually occurs in the winter, when the humidity is low."

I'm well aware of when the 'static-y' time of the year is!
However, it just so happens that this past winter, I didn't get zapped getting into or out of my (or anyone else's) vehicle.

Aren't I lucky?

Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 06-29-2002, 08:34 AM:

New Jersey bans self-serve gas for the same reason as Oregon. Any time the Legislature brings up a bill to legalize self-serve, the gas station lobby cries "WOLF!" and the bill dies in committee.

I've pumped my own gas in New York, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, Vermont, Massachusetts and Florida. Never had a problem.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-29-2002, 10:33 AM:

So how exactly does a static charge build up when rewinding prints? Do you have to be holding the film between your fingers with one hand(as everyone should do when inspecting a print for the first time)?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-29-2002, 11:38 AM:

Ken, the charging is very much like that that occurs in the Van de Graaf generator:

"Notice that the belt and the roller are made from two different materials. When the rubber belt touches the plastic roller, chemical bonds form and the charges in the surface atoms of the two materials share unequally. As the roller rotates, the belt peels away and the surfaces separate again. The belt and roller surfaces take their equal and opposite charges with them. This whole process is called "frictional charging", but since no friction is actually required, it's more accurate to call it "electrification by contact." "

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-29-2002, 12:23 PM:

"I've pumped my own gas in New York, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, Vermont and Massachusetts. Never had a problem."

Here in England it has been almost universal for so long that people seem to have stopped complaining about it, but the usual objection was that the pumps were usually filthy, and it was was very easy to get hands, suit, dress etc., covered in oil and muck. This usually happens on the way to an important business or social appointment.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 06-29-2002, 09:21 PM:

I visited Oregon once.....and rented a car... and got out at the gas station....to pump my gas...and got yelled at. Quite an experience...however I never use my cell phone when pumping gas -and I am very aware of static electricity. I was told a story once about a basketball player who was fueling his Ferrari(while it was running) and was badly burned in a fuel fire that was a direct result of static electricity. Being a projectionist for many years and working at the Motorola Plant in Plantation, Florida - I am sort of an expert in Static Electricity.

------------------
"Running through life at 24 frames per second"

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-29-2002, 10:29 PM:

Pump what? We have nuclear powered vehicles at GTS.
Mark

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-30-2002, 01:46 PM:

Stephen, you should see some of the Diesel pumps in the USA....those things are so gross that "pump-er" would rather not...

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 06-30-2002, 09:45 PM:

I always pump gas and never a problem. The first time I have heard of friction is right here. Come on guy's give me a break.

Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 07-01-2002, 04:54 AM:

I've been pumping my own gas since living in Seattle for some 13 years now and never, ever had a problem.
When inspecting film on our Kel-Mar rewind I make damn sure I hold the side of the box with the speed control so, as Paul says, I don't get knocked on my ass from static.

"You can trust your car to the man who wears the star, the big ol Texaco star"
Gone but not forgotten!

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 07-04-2002, 02:02 PM:

We went thru this whole deal on a motorcycle mailing list I'm on about a year ago. Seems that by never actually getting off the bike to pump the gas, you're putting yourself at risk of the electro static discharge igniting gas vapors to make everything go boom theory. I, myself, have never had a problem, then again, more often that not, I have the sidestand down as I stradle the bike. Also, I've been shocked many times getting in/out of the car/truck I'm in.

------------------
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 07-05-2002, 08:31 AM:

I've been driving since 1972, and am still unburned. I worked at a full-service station from 1975-1976 pumping gas for wealthy little old ladies that not only wanted everything on the car checked, also wanted me to remove the pea-gravel from their tire treads. When I would fill a gas can for someone, I would sit it on the pump island beside the pump before filling.

When I got out of the pump-jockey industry, I never again went through a full-service lane. I tend to not slop gas down the side of my own car better than most attendants will. Besides, around here in Western NC, full-service is almost $.10 more than self-serve.

I'll state this quietly, as my cars are sitting outside listening:

I have never had a problem in twenty years with any of my cars that I could not repair myself, A/C included. In fact, today I am doing a full brake-job on one of them.

I think that the full-service station lobby has a stranglehold on the governments of NJ, and OR. Thats why you cant pump it yourself.

BTW: Diesel pump islands are usually the nastiest places. I've seen people filling their Mercedes', pulling out the nozzle, and slopping diesel everywhere. Unlike gasoline, diesel fuel does not evaporate quickly.

I'm off to work on the car. Later...
Bruce

Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 07-05-2002, 06:22 PM:

This thread reminds of a jaw-dropping moment a couple of years back.

I was giving one of the cashiers a lift home after work one night (very pretty girl, but a bit of an airhead). So i stopped at a garage on the way to fuel up. As i was pumping the fuel in, I noticed her door opening, then the lit cigarette she was smoking flew out, followed by her foot stamping it out. My jaw just DROPPED! Bear in mind this was right in front of the pump, not the other side!

Like I said above, pretty girl but....

Posted by Rob Jones (Member # 902) on 07-05-2002, 07:05 PM:

Andy, you should come and work for us at YSC - pays not so good (ok, no pay at all - although I am whole-heartedly in favour of the projectionist beer reimbursment fund

, plus all the girls are on the way to getting a degree!

Plus in York - never had a shock once yet on my bike, although I don't think my 1992 Apollo 'Rad' has quite the same magnetic attractive power as my old Puegeot 205

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-08-2002, 03:00 AM:

"I was giving one of the cashiers a lift home after work one night (very pretty girl, but a bit of an airhead). So i stopped at a garage on the way to fuel up. As i was pumping the fuel in, I noticed her door opening, then the lit cigarette she was smoking flew out, followed by her foot stamping it out. My jaw just DROPPED! Bear in mind this was right in front of the pump, not the other side!"

What's the betting she would have been absolutely terrified if you had shown her a reel of nitrate film? People's perception of risk can be very strange.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-08-2002, 06:33 AM:

Nitrate is actually more difficult to ignite than petrol - it has a significantly higher flashpoint and does not produce any flammable vapour. I agree, people get very paranoid about the stuff but have no problem sitting in their cars 3-4 feet away from enough petrol to turn them into kebabs.

I was a bit surprised to see in the report Brad cited that the fires tended to start as the result of a driver getting into her (usually) car while the petrol was pumping. Presumably this means that the pumps are designed so that the petrol will flow unattended, i.e. you just press a button and it pumps until the tank is full. This couldn't happen in the UK, because the pumps have a trigger mechanism which needs to be continually depressed in order for the petrol to flow - you can't be doing two things at once. Presumably this is in order to make it impossible to smoke, use a mobile 'phone or do anything else risky while petrol vapour is present in the atmosphere: if so, this strikes me as a very good idea.

The pumps also have a system which stops the flow when your tank is full, but in my experience they frequently don't work properly, splashing petrol on the ground, and sometimes on my shoe.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-08-2002, 09:20 AM:

Auto-fill nozzles are nothing more than a little catch at the rear of the handle that holds the lever up so that the user doesn't have to continually keep a hand on it.

I would imagine they were originally invented so that full-serve attendants could check under the hood, clean the windows, etc. while the tank filled, thus speeding up operations.

Nowadays, people probably just use them to be lazy. However, up here in the Northern climes, they come in real handy when the weather is freezing. It's nice to be able to put your hands in your pockets while the tank fills. Other than that I usually don't use them.

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 07-08-2002, 12:51 PM:

I suppose those catches for the lever would be nice to use in the winter ... if you're silly enough to be out in the cold without mittens of gloves!

<- got picked on, a lot, while still in school, for always being prepared for the wintry weather. i.e. hat, scarf, mittens (or gloves), warm jacket, boots ...

Apparently using common sense wasn't 'cool' or 'trendy'.

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 07-08-2002, 01:40 PM:

Just my luck, the lever catch is nearly always broken off, so I have
to squeeze until finished. It just occurred to me that maybe the station attendant broke them off purposely to encourage customers to use his "full service" row of pumps.

Posted by Paul Turner (Member # 832) on 07-08-2002, 04:06 PM:

Here in Ore-Eee-Gone we just passed a law that allows motorcycle riders to pump their own gas, but we must wait until the attendant has handed us the hose . . . Someone finally figured out that maybe the motorcycle riders are a better bet at knowing the dangers of dispencing a flammable liquid into a container over a hot engine. Then there was the time the attendant stuck the nozzle in my tank, hit the lever catch and walked off, all in the few seconds I was blinded while removing my helmet . . . .

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 07-08-2002, 06:47 PM:

I noticed before I left Florida that the new gas stations did not have the latch on the gas pump hoses to let you do an auto-fill. Here in Las Vegas, Nevada I have yet to see a pump with one of those latches on them.

It seems to be catching on that people walking away from their vehicles while it is being filled with gasoline is not a good thing.

------------------
"Running through life at 24 frames per second"

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-08-2002, 08:45 PM:

quote:
...if you're silly enough to be out in the cold without mittens of gloves!

...or if you don't want your gloves to smell like gasoline!
...or if you don't like standing outside in the wind and snow.