Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: For Sale: The Ziegfeld Theatre (plus: projection at Radio City Music Hall)

This is topic For Sale: The Ziegfeld Theatre (plus: projection at Radio City Music Hall) in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 08-09-2002, 08:44 AM:

Break open yer piggybanks, fellas, New York City's premier movie theatre is up for grabs. Cablevision has announced that it will seek a buyer for it's Clearview Cinemas chain, which includes the 1163 seat Ziegfeld and it's eastside sister, the Beekman. Unfortunatly, you'll also have to pick up 277 other screens in the tri-state area, most of them in truly mediocre, bizarrly converted mulitplexes. Clearview picked up it's NYC screens from Cineplex shortly after the Loews merger, and has been way over their heads on all of them since.

$100 million buys the whole schmeer. Whoever buys has to promise they will take the ad slides off the screen at the Zieg. Please?

Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 08-09-2002, 04:56 PM:

The problems Cablevision Systems has aren't limited to Clearview Cinemas.

Cablevision was forced to admit that it had lost cable TV subscribers because Cablevision refuses to carry the YES Network for Yankees baseball. I live in a Cablevision town. My family lives on Long Island -- which is dominated by Cablevision. Lack of the YES Network on Cablevision has become a political issue in the New York area.

As if that's not enough Cablevision is hemorrhaging red ink on The Wiz, a computer/electronics/music chain that's getting hammered by Best Buy and Circuit City.

For my comments on Clearview see "Theatres for sale", which I've just bumped up top in Film Handlers' Forum.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 05-03-2012, 07:08 PM:

It has been 3555 days since the last post.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 05-03-2012, 07:08 PM:

Nearly a decade after I made the above post, the circle comes 'round again: Cablevision is once again trying to dump Clearview Cinemas, including the Ziegfeld, New York City's only real premier quality single screen cinema. The buyer also gets the very popular Chelsea Cinemas, the not-especially-popular First & 62nd Cinemas, and 42 other suburban losers, most cheaply constructed multi's or horrible conversions. Clearview is the tri-state area operator that barely spends a buck on upkeep or technology. I'm going to guess that the bulk of the non-NYC screens are still film (the ones near me in NJ are), meaning a big bill awaits whoever the buyer is.

If they couldn't unload these places ten years ago, I don't understand what makes them think they can dump them now.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-03-2012, 10:04 PM:

Can anyone say pennies on the dollar? And to developers who will really just be intersted in acquiring the land. There will be lots of razing going on if they can indeed find a buyer.

The terror scenario is that a true real estate developer will see the Ziegfeld only as a NYC property worth much more for the land it is sitting on rather than for the fact it has been a premiere, single screen flagship theatre for decades (but despite it's impecable rep, for years it still struggled to stay out of the red). Sad indeed.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 05-05-2012, 12:27 PM:

Maybe Cablevision will book more premieres into Radio City Music Hall or the Beacon Theatre. Which are finer venues than the Ziegfeld Theatre. And are multi usable for concerts, film and other events. New York City lost better real flagship theatres over the years. Think about the old UA Rivoli or the old Warner Cinerama or Loew's State Theatres.
Maybe Apple will turn it into a large Apple store or someone will gut it into a dinner theatre type location. The old Loews Astor Plaza Theatre was a better theatre.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-07-2012, 08:09 PM:

No doubt, Bill -- I loved the Astor Plaza, before it they let it crash and burn (they are the ones trashed the 70mm 2001 print in 2003). But those great ladies are long gone, so just looking at today's NYC landscape, to loose the Ziegfeld is really sad -- just one more single screens dies. And that puts another nail, probably the last one, in the coffin of what used to be a stellar city of great movie houses. Now everything is all on the West Cost.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-07-2012, 08:16 PM:

No doubt, Bill -- I loved the Astor Plaza, before it they let it crash and burn (they are the ones trashed the 70mm 2001 print in 2003). But those great ladies are long gone, so just looking at today's NYC landscape, to loose the Ziegfeld is really sad -- just one more single screens dies. And that puts another nail, probably the last one, in the coffin of what used to be a stellar city of great movie houses. Now everything is all on the West Cost.

As for RCMH, as much as it is an architectural marvel and stunning to look at and wander the marble art deco halls, it really is too much of a barn for decent cinema sound. How on earth would they do 7.1 in there? How do you even eq such a cavern? Still, you have to be glad no one has decided it would make a better high rise, although I can guarantee there are developers drooling over the prospect as we speak.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 05-10-2012, 09:30 AM:

The Music Hall closed temporarily in 1979 at which point they did propose tearing it down, but it was Landmarked. That's when it reopened without the movies and stage shows but as a concert venue. I used to be involved with Rockefeller Center and had the pleasure of touring through all the nooks and crannies of that place--fabulous. I even got to play the organ briefly. With their original lighting control system they were second only to NASA as a consumer of vacuum tubes!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-10-2012, 10:48 AM:

Not to be too much of a downer, but I think this is part of a larger trend -one that is probably unintentional yet a factor in the potential suicide that can take place upon the commercial movie theater industry over the next several years.

Big "flagship" movie theaters, premiere class ones at that, are part of what has given the commercial movie theater industry its image of offering more magical settings in which to see movies.

If all movie theaters are nothing more than unremarkable clones of one multiplex after another I'm not really going to give so much of a damn about going versus watching the movie at home on Blu-ray disc. I've seen a lot of movies in great quality movie theaters (including the Ziegfeld, Astor Plaza and other places in New York City). The memory of visiting those places is part of what drives me to see movies in commercial movie theaters.

Some theaters are trying to "reinvent" the experience. Warren Theatres does a lot to pump up the old movie palace feel. They're also getting into the act of building small "director's chair" screening rooms. Unfortunately, the efforts to deliver great showmanship are now seen as a luxury priced item. It's now pretty easy for one person to spend more money seeing a certain movie at a theater than it is to buy the movie when it comes out on DVD or Blu-ray.

A movie's "world premiere" has been a big part of movie marketing for several decades. The Ziegfeld has been the host of quite a few notable world premieres. Those premieres are best suited to single screen (or twin) theaters boasting auditoriums of 1000+ seats. They kind of suck when they're placed into a multiplex setting. A single screen site can easily be reserved for a premiere on a certain evening. It would be stupid to shut down most or all of a multiplex in order to host a world premiere.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 05-10-2012, 10:12 PM:

BTW, movies sound fine at RCMH and you CAN do 7.1 there....

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 05-11-2012, 09:33 AM:

I understand that studios used to strike special drive-in style "lighter" prints for the Music Halk due to the problem of getting enough light on the screen with that tremendous throw. I don't remember what size lamphouses they used there--anyone know?

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 05-11-2012, 09:51 AM:

quote: Jeff Taylor
understand that studios used to strike special drive-in style "lighter" prints for the Music Halk due to the problem of getting enough light on the screen with that tremendous throw.

They still do - on a limited basis. My new print of "Dark Shadows" that opens tonight is a special "drive-in print", that is printed 3 points lighter than normal.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 05-11-2012, 10:23 AM:

I don't know the size of the xenon bulb, but RCMH was using Orcon 2 consoles starting in the mid to late 70s. I read that in one of the Boxoffice magazine online archives.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 05-11-2012, 10:46 AM:

I read that some RCMH prints had the sound advanced a couple of frames to compensate for propagation delay.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-11-2012, 11:23 AM:

quote: James Westbrook
RCMH was using Orcon 2 consoles starting in the mid to late 70s. I read that in one of the Boxoffice magazine online archives.

By itself, that would explain a lot. Those consoles were horrible light hogs. About the only lamps I ever saw come close were the Christie CH-series boxes, especially the CH20.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 05-11-2012, 12:53 PM:

The size of the hall was a major factor in the organ as well. The pipe chambers are located on both sides of the procenium, which meant one chamber was on 50th St. and the other on 51St. On peppy, fast songs it was an issue that when the solo and toy box sections were a block away from the bass sections--the organist had to be really careful not to be confused by the echo. Dick Liebert, the original head organist, was gone RIP by the time I got there, but I did meet Ray Bohr, his assistant, and he was a font of information about the good old days at RCMH. I did get up to the booth, but didn't note the lighthouses. What was really impressive was the OTIS elevator configuration for the three stage lifts and the separate band gondola lift. Interesting was that the organs were originally supposed to have their own two lifts, but at the end they put them in the two chambers one each side of the procenium--there are half doors in each compartment and the organists had to crawl out on top of the bass pedals in their tuxedos to get onto the benches before the mechanisms pushed them out into view. Tough for poor Dick Liebert when he was 70 years old!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-11-2012, 01:25 PM:

RCMH was, unfortunately, NOT the paragon of projection. Lots of XLs along with ORC lamps. All equipment was free for promotional value. Many times they ran 2 prints in near sync interlock because of the house value +5000 seats.

Screen was BIG; over 100 ft I understand. 4500 watts would not have given you 16 ft/lm. Louis

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 05-11-2012, 01:42 PM:

Actually they advertised over 6000 seats to beat the advertised total for the Roxy, but in reality they had 5900+, with the reaminder portable seating on top of the orchestra pit when the elevator was up. I don't know the technical terms for it, but the RCMH has/had 2500 foot/stage/spot lights, and every light was driven by a separate vacuum tube. In the basement there was a room completely full of racks and racks of tubes left on 24/7 with its own A/C supply (two 1930 carrier steam turbines all polished brass--now it's cross connected with all the other Rock Center buildings on a centralized control system). It had to be 90 degrees in there.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 05-12-2012, 08:36 AM:

The equipment was upgraded in 1999. It wasn't free then.lol. Highlight II's were put in for 2& 3. Same 35/70 heads for projectors 2 & 3. They are only used for 70MM and 70MM 3D. 7000 watt lamps. Ridiculous light levels with silver screen. Projector 1 is original XL with IPC soundhead. ORC lamphouse with 5000 watt lamp. Projector 4 is what we use for 35MM screenings. XL 35/70 with Kinoton 5000 watt console. Projector 5 was taken out last year for digital projector. Projector 4 gets 12FT lamberts in flat on 50 foot screen.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-12-2012, 08:48 AM:

What type of sound system (processing and loudspeakers) is installed at Radio City for motion-picture use?

And, why do (did) they have five projectors? I could see having four (to show 2-strip 3D features without intermissions), but why five?

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-12-2012, 04:01 PM:

The Odeon Leicester Square normally had three film projectors, of five different models over the years, but it did briefly have five. Three of these were BTH SUPAs and the other two were Kalee 8-perf Vistavision machines. Only one or two films ever ran in Vistavision. I don't know of anywhere with five normal machines.

I know of three cinemas which ran 3-D on four machines. Two were demolished long ago, one in the '50s. The other still stands but has been totally closed for about ten years. before that the main auditorium was disused apart from occasional organ concerts. As far as I know, three projectors are still installed, two converted to xenon, but seriously underpowered for the screen size, and the third still carbon, but probably also underpowered; it was a large screen.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-12-2012, 05:41 PM:

They generally always have two prints running at the the same time. As they say...you haven't been booed until you've been booed by 6000 or so people at once.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 05-12-2012, 06:10 PM:

At one point for the Christmas show, we used all 5 projectors. Since we used 2&3 for the 3D only, we needed more projectors. #1 has an encoder to sync the film up with sound as does 2&3. #4 used a scope lens for elements in the show. #5 used flat for it's elements. For film screenings we used a CP200 which is still there. Now Dolby brings in a 650. All JBL speakers. About 24 bass drivers and 9 horns per speaker. 12 JBL subs. JBL 8330 surrounds..... too many to count.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-12-2012, 08:25 PM:

At least they let you all keep the CP200 (all of my 70mm theatres have them). I wouldn't bother with the CP650 for film shows.

RCMH was one of the few places with a Electrosound system, once upon a time.

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 05-13-2012, 09:07 AM:

The sound system was retooled for LION KING. They ran a 70mm unsounded print married to 35mm-Dolby Digital on a separate machine.

RCMH Booth Pics (I do not know who posted these.)

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 05-13-2012, 09:47 AM:

I wonder if those old carbon spots supposedly still in operation are fed off the old mg sets or if they've retrofitted the rectifiers.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 05-14-2012, 09:57 AM:

I took those pictures 2 years ago at the Christmas show load in. Those 2 old spotlights are next door in the center spot booth. They are 2000 watt zenons now.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-15-2012, 10:43 AM:

Years ago Warren Jenkens arranged a late night tour with bob enders At that time they had the ORC and a CP100 with the electrosound amps
There was also a Monee in the booth as well
The carbon arc spots had been converted to use a HDI Metal Halide lamp
What became of the organ from the second theatre that was in the Rockefeller center

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 05-15-2012, 01:09 PM:

Everything you never wanted to know about the Center Theater pipe organ:

The organ in the RKO Roxy (Center) Theatre was one of three Wurlitzers ordered for Rockefeller Center, the others going to Radio City Music Hall (4/54, Op. 2179) and the Radio City Studio (3/14, Op. 2180). According to Music Hall organist C.A.J. Parmentier, the specifications for all three organs were drawn by R.P. Elliot of the W.W. Kimball Company, yet Wurlitzer got the contracts to build them. One possible explanation is that S.L. "Roxy" Rothafel, manager of both the RKO Roxy and Music Hall, had good experiences with the large Kimball organs that had been installed under his watch at the Roxy Theatre.

Although Op. 2178 had a similar design to Op. 2179 in the Music Hall, the latter was larger due to it having "straight" ranks while the RKO Roxy organ was highly unified. The RKO Roxy organ had a factory date of August 2, 1932 and cost $32,510. By comparison, the larger Music Hall organ cost $107,445, owing to it having a second console, second relay and two 32' stops.

The Center Theater organ was removed in the early 1950's and was installed in a roller skating rink in Alexandra, VA, where it remained for years. It was installed "unenclosed", meaning the pipes were out in the open, not enclosed in a chamber as is normal theatre organ practice. This made it LOUD for the skaters. It was removed in the late 70's-early 80's and sold to a collector in Phoenix, Ariz. The instrument was broken up some time after that, and the console is now in the Berkeley Community Auditorium, in Berkeley, Calif., controling a spectacular instrument based on the Toledo, Ohio, Paramount Wurlitzer, with choice Wurlitzer ranks added.

(courtesy NYC Chapter of the American Guild of Organists)

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-15-2012, 02:16 PM:

quote:
...the problem of getting enough light on the screen with that tremendous throw.

Jeff, the throw is irrelevant in determining lamp size (other than lens losses which are relatively small), and every time I see this come up I cringe.

It is the size of the screen that matters. You could, for example, light a 25 foot wide screen with a 2k bulb with a throw of a mile (if you can find a lens that long of focal length) just as well as you could with a 60 foot throw.

Many books of the early era of cinema had to emphasize that point as it was a myth that existed then.

I am sure one reason that myth got started was because such a large venue had a huge screen so the ones who didn't know better automatically assumed that the throw was causing the loss of light.

I have a wonderful book about the old movie palaces, "The Best Remaining Seats" Ben M. Hall, Bramhall House, New York, publisher. It has loads of info about the classic palaces, including a comprehensive look at the Roxy. They also go into detail about many of those palaces pipe organs.

Locally, those in So Calf. need to check out the Old Town Music Hall, El Segundo, CA. They have a restored Wurlitizer pipe organ and play it with silent film screenings. Find them HERE.

Conrad Button and I installed a pair of Century 35mm machines there many years ago. Sadly, the combination of Conrad's passing, one of the OTMH owner's passing, and loss of the volunteer projectionists made them switch to all video a few years ago. But the presentations are still excellent.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 05-15-2012, 02:21 PM:

Sorry, Tony. I've heard that before, you're right, and it's logical. Still, for whatever reason I know that they did strike prints a stop or two or three lighter in the old days for RCMC as with some driveins, so following up on Dick May's comment that they get 12 footlamberts with 5k on 35mm it's clearly pushing the envelope. Still, I'm old enough I can remember seeing films there years ago (Midnight Lace sticks in my mind for some odd reason), and it was a damn fine experience.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-15-2012, 02:31 PM:

No problem Jeff. [Smile]

And since they had the crappy ORC light Hogs I am sure that was one reason the special prints were struck.

Drive-ins, even with good lamps, still had the huge screen size issues that ate up all the light. (Along with screen surface degradation, fog, mist, ambient lights, moonlight, etc.)

You should check out that book I mentioned if you can find a copy. [Smile]

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 05-15-2012, 06:05 PM:

It's still an experience seeing a film there.