Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Todd-AO

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Posted by John Schulien (Member # 215) on 08-12-2002, 03:16 PM:

I know that this process was named for Michael Todd, but it just occurred to me that I have no idea what the "AO" stands for. Is it an abbreviation? Anyone know?

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 08-12-2002, 03:29 PM:

American Optical Co.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-12-2002, 03:40 PM:

Here's a great history of Todd-AO:

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingto1.htm

And lots on Thomas Hauerslev's website:
http://hjem.get2net.dk/in70mm/magazine/diverse/todd_ao_index.htm

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-12-2002, 04:16 PM:

The first time I saw a film produced in Todd-AO was "OKLAHOMA" but I had to watch the CinemaScope version because no theatre in Hawaii at that time was set up for 70mm and Consolidated who was not part of Pacific Theatres, did not want to invest a large amount of money to invest in the large film format at that time. All of that changed when Henry J. Kaiser worked out a deal with Mike Todd to screen the exclusive Hawaii showing of "AROUND THE WORL IN 80 DAYS" in a special dome Theatre that Kaiser built for the presentation on the grounds of the Hilton Hawaiian Village and the movie was presented in 70mm Todd AO there. Wanting to get even, Consolidated signed a contract with Cinerama to screen all of their three panel films at the long defunct Princess Theatre in downtown Honolulu. I saw all of the Cinerama films there and they were all awesome. "When the next Todd AO film, SOUTH PACIFIC" was released, Consolidated had made sure to equip the Kuhio Theatre where "OKLAHOMA" played in 35mm with the full blown 70mm hardware for the engagement. Part of the reason for putting it in was the fact that almost all of the movie was filmed in Hawaii on the island of Kauai and there was a special local premiere with a large part of the cast and production people coming to Hawaii for it. By the way, for many of you who do not know it, the Todd AO version of "OKLAHOMA" was shot in 30fps and that is the reason why the film was also photographed in CinemaScope in 24fps. "AROUND THE WORLD IN 80 DAYS' was a little different because the movie was photographed in 65mm Todd-AO in both 30fps and 24fps.

-Claude

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 08-12-2002, 04:25 PM:

If I am not mistaken, wasn't THE SOUND OF MUSIC produced in TODD-AO?

Dave

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-12-2002, 04:35 PM:

Yes

Fox who produced and released "THE SOUND OF MUSIC", released almost all of their 70mm films in Todd AO with the exception of "THE BIBLE" and "PATTON" which were both photographed in Dimension 150.

The TODD AO films include "STAR", DR. DOLITTLE" with Rex Harrison, "THE SAND PEBBLES". "HELLO DOLLY", "THE AGONY & THE ECSTASY", "CLEOPATRA" & "CAN-CAN" based on my memory. There might have been a couple more but I remember these because they are favorites of mine. Here is a very interesting tidbit regarding TODD AO and Fox. I had learned from the commentary on the "CLEOPATRA" DVD, Elizabeth Taylor had insisted that her late husband's (Mike Todd) TODD AO process was used for the film as part of her contract agreement with Fox.

-Claude

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 08-12-2002, 05:11 PM:

SAN PEBBLES is Panavision - blow up from 35mm negative.
Nice, -but blow-up !

Per

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-12-2002, 05:14 PM:

Claude

The Sand Pebbles was a 35mm anamorphic (Panavision) production blown up to 70mm for roadshowing.

A full list of Todd-AO productions can be found on the Widescreen Museum site that John Pytlak linked.

Todd-AO basically morphed from it's 30fps 128 degree screen presentation to a 24fps screen with various curves, many at a lot less than the original. Dimension 150 was essentially (as far as the viewing audience was concerned) a revised Todd-AO format. Better optics, perhaps, but a return to the deep screen nature of the original Todd-AO specs (or close to it).

I think the Cleopatra being shot in Todd-AO had more to do with Fox's majority ownership in the process than Elizabeth Taylor once owning a part of it. Fox shot most of their big roadshow films in the format, including Can-Can (the Todd-AO version of South Pacific was distributed by Magna), The Agony and the Ecstacy, Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines, Sound of Music, Star!, Doctor Dolittle, Hello, Dolly. Also, the two D-150 films (some call it the new todd-AO, some of the same players involved) The Bible and Patton.

As a matter of fact, Fox seemed to be the studio who kept the format going through most of the 60's. The first two Todd-AO films not roadshowed (and the last two released) were Airport and The Last Valley. John Wayne also shot his epic The Alamo in Todd-AO (through UA distribution), and Samuel Goldwyn's Porgy and Bess was released through Columbia.

Little known fact: although credited as Super Panavision 70, much of the special effects work for 2001 was shot with Todd-AO cameras. Numerous other movies have used these cameras (and new designs) as well for special effects work. The last movie to be credited as Todd-AO was Baraka.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-12-2002, 05:22 PM:

Paul, You are correct about "THE SAND PEBBLES" and yes I do recall Robert Wise had shot the film in anamorphic Panavision and released the film as a "blow Up" 70mm road show presentation. By the way, "AIRPORT" was not released by Fox but by Universal Pictures. It is very interesting that the score from the movie was by a long time music score composer at Fox, Alfred Newman and I understand it was his last.

-Claude

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-12-2002, 05:47 PM:

Claude

I should have clarified that by spliting the paragraph. I meant to distinguish Fox Tod-AO films that were roadshowed by the last two from studios who had dropped roadshowing. The Last Valley was also not a Fox film, but an ABC presentation through Cinerama releasing.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-14-2002, 04:01 AM:

Claude,
if the movies you mentioned were SHOT in two different formats with different frame rates, does that mean that they had two sets of cameras? The two versions would then have slightly different camera angles. I know that "The Robe" was shot with two sets of equipment because the movie was already under way when they bought the process from Chrétien.
Michael

Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 08-14-2002, 04:26 AM:

Howdy
My understanding is that OKLAHOMA was shot both in 70MM Todd-AO and 35mm Scope because Mike Todd did not think theatres we going to be willing to convert all for one movie and that it would affect revenue.
The laserdisc I saw recently of OKLAHOMA was a 70MM Todd-AO transfer and looks like a completely different movie than the 35 version. That's because it is.
I saw OKLAHOMA in 70MM Todd-AO in Boston first run and it was, to say the least, spectacular.
Have a beautiful morning.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-14-2002, 08:48 AM:

Another problem was the optical printing from 65mm 30fps to 35mm
24 fps. The labs had no optical printer to convert Todd-AO. They
fixed the problems at the lab, while "Around the World in 80 Days" was in production. "Around the World in 80 Days" started with two
units a Todd-AO unit and a CinemaScope unit. The CinemaScope unit
was discarded.

If you look at the old Fox video boxes for "Hello Dolly", you will
see a typo Produced by Todd AO. should have read Produced in Todd-AO.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-14-2002, 09:18 AM:

The 30 fps frame rate of the original Todd-AO productions ("Oklahoma" and "Around the World in 80 Days") greatly improved the rendition of motion and reduced apparent "strobing" of the image, important for the large screens and close viewing distances allowed by the format. But the need for having 24 fps 35mm prints for general release and the hassles of shooting with two different frame rates led to all subsequent feature releases being 24 fps.

BTW, higher frame rates also allow higher levels of screen luminance before shutter flicker becomes apparent with normal 2-blade shutters.

BTW, the original frame rate for 3-strip Cinerama was 26 fps.; 24 fps was used for the last two features.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-14-2002, 11:01 AM:

I have VHS copies of both the Todd-AO, and CinemaScope versions of "Oklahoma!" and they are different movies. The lines are the same, but they are very different. For an example, in the song, "Surrey With A Fringe On Top," the principals are sitting and singing. A small white moth crosses across the screen in the cinemascope (and flat) version. This does not happen in the Todd-AO version.

I saw the Goldwyn Company release of this title in 70mm 30 fps in 1983, and when I told people that the films were different, I was told that I was NUTS. Now, it's fairly common knowledge.

Watching Oklahoma! in 70mm makes it look like you are viewing the film through a mirror! Wow. 70mm ROCKS!!!

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-14-2002, 12:58 PM:

The higher film-speed should also have influenced the sound quality positively, especially in the high-frequency range. That also adds some insight to the topic about the Todd-AO sound characteristics that I started in the technical forum.
Are the versions of those movies only different in camera angle or are there also differences in the way the scenes are cut?
Michael

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-14-2002, 01:33 PM:

I recall some scenes in "Oklahoma" were actually different takes between the two versions.

From Marty Hart's American Widescreen Museum:

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingto5.htm

"This required different camera setups and somewhat altered staging to produce the 35mm version. With the recent availability of the film on laser disc, transferred from the 30fps 65mm negative, most people agree that the Todd-AO version is superior in every way."

And from Steve Kraus's website:

http://www.govst.edu/users/gaskrau/technote.html

"Because 30 fps does not convert readily to 24 fps to make general release prints, Oklahoma! was also shot on alternate takes in 35mm CinemaScope. The 35mm version, with distinctly different performances is the more widely seen version. The 2nd film, Michael Todd's Around the World in 80 Days was shot with alternate takes at 24 fps and 30 fps, in both cases on 65mm film."

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-14-2002, 02:55 PM:

On Steve Kraus's website
http://www.govst.edu/users/gaskrau/technote.html

It shows an ad from when "Oklahoma" opened at the Rivoli theatre
in New York. Note the sound format.
"Oklahoma" in 70mm 6-Channel Hi-Fi Orthosonic Sound.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-15-2002, 02:13 AM:

There were also dual versions shot of the Fox Grandeur film The Big Trail: the two versions had separate directors of photography (Arthur Edeson for the 70mm version, Lucien Andriot for the 35). Around the time of the conversion to sound hundreds of films were released in dual talkie and silent versions.

I once showed a 70mm print of The Sand Pebbles - very pink as I recall, but the sound was excellent. The play-in and play-out music was all still there.

Posted by Thomas Hauerslev (Member # 566) on 08-15-2002, 02:23 AM:

Just for the record, there are at least 4 films shot in Todd-AO 30fps; "Oklahoma!", "The Miracle of Todd-AO" (short 1956), "Around the World in 80 Days" and "Cinespace 70" (short 1986).

List of Todd-AO films

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Cheers, Thomas
www.in70mm.com
www.dp70.com
www.70mm.dk

Posted by Mitchell Cope (Member # 32) on 08-15-2002, 07:17 PM:

Just a few notes about the Todd-AO version of “Oklahoma!”.

After the intermission, as Jud is supposed to be escorting Laurey to the dance, a scary runaway buggy scene plays out. This scene was surely added to be the “roller coaster” type ride in the film, narrowly missing various trees and things.

At the auction, when Aunt Eller yells “sold”, her gavel hits down and breaks off as planned. What was not planned, is that in the Todd-AO version the gavel head flies off hitting the camera lens area. The actors are stunned for a moment, but the director hasn’t yelled “cut”. They pick right back up… a real keeper for Todd-AO.

A major goof in the Todd-AO version, probably because the shot was filmed first, is when Gordon MacRae and Shirley Jones come out of the farm house singing “Oklahoma!” Gordon grabs a porch column that is supposed to be holding up the porch. The column comes completely off its base before he puts it back with a little “whoops” in his eyes.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-16-2002, 10:44 AM:

Is the anamorphic TODD AO35 still used if not what was the last feature in it
I remember that some of the lens were very sharp and fast compared to others on the market at that time

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 08-16-2002, 05:08 PM:

The start to Oklahoma in 70mm is different to the 35mm scope version. The 70mm version has titles on a black background and opens with a shot pushing through the corn field, the 35mm scope has pictures of the farm and surrounding area with the titles over the top. and cuts out the pushing through tthe corn field shot totaly. This lessens the impact that the 70mm print has.
Does anyone know if there still is a 70mm print in the U.K.??
One was shown at bradford a couple of years back, maybe Dick if you read this post will know?

Darren

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-16-2002, 05:21 PM:

Although the very first showing of "OKLAHOMA" in Hawaii was in 35mm at the Kuhio, the movie played here many times after that over the years and every showing was in 70mm Todd A0. I think the last time it played here was at the now defunct Cinerama Theatre during one of their 70mm festivals about five years ago with "LAWRENCE OF ARABIA", and "2001".

-Claude

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 08-16-2002, 05:43 PM:

>>Is the anamorphic TODD AO35 still used if not what was the last feature in it<<

The last two titles I know of with the 'TODD-AO 35' credit were 'Flash Gordon'(1980) and 'Legend Of The Lone Ranger'(1981)

-Aaron

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-16-2002, 06:02 PM:

quote:
There were also dual versions shot of the Fox Grandeur film The Big Trail: the two versions had separate directors of photography (Arthur Edeson for the 70mm version, Lucien Andriot for the 35).

I Didn't know that. At least with 'Oklahoma!, the two aspect ratios were fairly similar, but Grandeur was 2:1, and I don't know what the 35mm version was, as this was before the 1.37 Academy aperture was standardised, it might even have been the early sound aperture, 1.1 something, similar to the 'Scope aperture. With this much difference between ratios, I doubt that you could simply shoot the sane action with two cameras side by side, you would probably have to stage it quite differently for the two wersions. I've only seen the 70mm one, as a 'Scope reduction print.

Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 08-16-2002, 06:42 PM:

A 70MM print of OKLAHOMA was shown at Seattle's Cinerama Theatre some years ago, before I moved up here 13 years ago. Not sure if it was the 30fps TODD-A-O print. The last I heard the Samuel Goldwyn Co., which used to own Landmark, was the distributor. I talked to someone in their LA office a few years back and she told me then the print still did exist. Whether or not it does now is anybody's guess.
I agree with what was posted earlier, the 70MM print had a much more spectacular opening and looks great on laserdisc.
DLP be damned, give us back our 70s.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-16-2002, 06:57 PM:

Peter,

As I and others had mentioned here, there was only one version of "OKLAHOMA" in Todd AO and it was the one filmed in 30fps. The one that was shot in 24fps was the 35mm CinemaScope version.

-Claude

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 08-16-2002, 07:26 PM:

The Heights Theater in Minneapolis booked the 70mm 30fps version, both last year and the year before.

Believe it or not, the 35mm and 70mm versions are treated as entirely seperate films, with the rights for each held by different companies. Samuel Goldwyn owns the 70mm/30fps rights.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-19-2002, 01:03 AM:

Aaron Sisemore wrote:

quote:
The last two titles I know of with the 'TODD-AO 35' credit were 'Flash Gordon'(1980) and 'Legend Of The Lone Ranger'(1981)

I'm aware of a couple other "Todd-AO 35" productions made *after* the two you mention: RAGTIME, CONAN THE BARBARIAN, and DUNE. I believe DUNE would be the last production filmed with the Todd-AO anamorphic lenses. I'm unaware of any productions beyond that, anyway.

And speaking of credits, not all of the "Todd-AO 35" productions have been appropriately billed on-screen and/or in advertising materials. Many of them, including LOGAN'S RUN, FLASH GORDON, and CONAN THE BARBARIAN, are misleadingly billed as 'Filmed in Todd-AO," giving some the false impression they may have been originated in the 65mm version of Todd-AO.

Aaron,
Having never seen THE LEGEND OF THE LONE RANGER I'll take your word for it, but many sources note that production was shot in Panavision.