Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Cost of HVAC

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-24-2002, 05:07 AM:

I'm curious as to what kind of costs a theater would be looking at in this scenario, as I know of a few that are like this.

Generic sized booth with 6-8 projectors and an AC system...but the theater is in Texas and the AC was underspec'd from day one and simply cannot cool the place down once the equipment starts to run. (Or in other words, the AC was spec'd out for an empty room, then the theater brought in a bunch of "heaters" that they call "projection equipment".) The end result is that the one HVAC unit never ever shuts off and if it gets as low as 80F it's an amazing day. Booth temperatures in the 90s and over 100F are not uncommon.

What kind of $$$ would the theater be looking at to install a second HVAC unit to help split the load? What are the benefits (obvious benefits as well as benefits that may not have been considered) as well as any disadvantages (obvious and not obvious here too)?

I've serviced these places and have gotten so hot that I started getting dizzy with a tremendous headache and felt like I was about to pass out, yet these theaters run like this on a daily basis! Just sitting still in a T-shirt and shorts, you can not keep from sweating. Even the projectors with the small 2000 watt lamps (some use up to 7000) will burn your hand if you touch them within 10 minutes of the film dropping. The lamphouses will also burn your hand if you hold it against the side door for more than a few seconds. (Before you scream "proper exhaust", bear in mind a couple of these theaters do not want to spend the money to exhaust the heat from the lamphouses either, so it just gets blasted into the projection room or up above the ceiling grid.)

Really, this is just ridiculous. I don't know how those projectionists have kept themselves from outright murdering the corporate guys that don't care enough about their people to provide them with a decent working environment.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 08-24-2002, 07:00 AM:

Brad, many corporates don't care. With them, it is "get the money and run." They would, in the long run, rather spend a dollar to save a nickel.

If they would have done it right in the first place, their bottom line would be a better figure because a higher moral of the employees and the staggering reduction of equipment maintenance costs.

They just don't get it until THEIR plush office HVAC quits! Then they scream like a stuck pig!

Corporates know what they are doing. I'll bet that if a person investigates this, they will find that some HVAC contractors will force the end user to sign a statement to the effect that the system is under-rated, and the warrenty of the equipment is basically void.

I have been told of several instances where this has happened.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-24-2002, 08:32 AM:

Maintaining proper relative humidity in the projection room (ideally 50% to 60% RH) greatly improves film performance, especially for curl and static issues. Very high humidity/dampness adversely affects film, equipment (corrosion), and electronics.

Maintaining a consistent comfortable temperature (less than 78F) is also good for the electronic equipment.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 08-24-2002, 10:42 AM:

Maybe you can approach the Corporate Hunchos with the line of:
If the bottom line is all you care for then you can make that line better buy cutting monthly expendatures; ie Electric bill.
Put in more effiecent units and vent the heaters, scuse me Projectors properly and you can probably save yourself a few hundred bucks a month, stretched out over a year thats 3600 bucks towards your profit, so on and so forth.
Changing out what units they have would be a better alternative than adding a system because to add a backup system would probably involve code inspections , and all that beuracratic(democrats) crap. Upgrading the existing system shouldn't require code inspections.
Anyway, look on the bright side, here comes fall and winter.

------------------
Samuel Hunter Sr.

Death to DLP (Video)

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 08-24-2002, 12:00 PM:

At least in Michigan, we have code inspections yearly, on top of any time we put in or upgrade HVAC equipment. The only exception is the main air conditioning unit which is just groundwater which runs through a 6'by 12' radiator, cooling the fan room, which blows air into the auditorium and booth. The water from the raidator then goes to the irrigation system to water the lawn.

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Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-24-2002, 12:12 PM:

We had a similar problem in the main server room where I worked. They installed a 2nd standalone A/C unit to help out the original one. The cost was around $10K by the time all the custom ductwork, electrical, holes in the roof, etc. were done, plus they had to rent a huge crane to lift the new compressor unit onto the roof. The room was a fairly small space and the equipment wasn't generating nearly as much heat as your're talking about.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-24-2002, 12:24 PM:

The big mistake most mechanical engineers forget is that the projector exhaust system is remove a very large volume of air that the HVAC must supply as fresh make up air
A booth with a positive airpressure is the best route to go add up the exhaust capacity (approx 500cfm per machine) and then add 30%

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 08-24-2002, 07:58 PM:

HVAC in the booth has been a problem with some clients. In one multiplex with a special venue projector we had to add booster air-conditioning and warehouse type vinyl walk through partitions in that part of the booth which is 12 - 15 degrees cooler than the rest of the 13 plex and of course that is where the entire booth staff hangs out ( I figured they would, so all status panels are located in that area )

. Exhaust is also not considered seriously to add to summer problems. My best client has a staff HVAC engineer for all of his buildings with all machines accessable from the booth for maintinance ( and all of his rooms easily meet THX HVAC noise specifications ) proper exhaust ventilation and happy projectionists who never have to pop corn...........
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 08-25-2002, 09:05 AM:

Brad,

It sounds like you're describing the Furneaux Creek. On any given day the temp in the booth is never less than 80 degrees. (This MAY be exhaust related or not since I can't get on the roof to check the fans for proper operation).

Unfortunatly many times the HVAC system was over looked in many theaters here in Texas. Typically the design firms were based in a northern state, and thus the engineers designed the building for what they knew. Prime example is the AMC Grand. They had to spend close to $100,000 if I remember right, to add additional cooling to the building.

I would imagine that there COULD be a few cost effective ways to tackle this problem. Perhaps a system with the compressor and condensor on the roof, and the evaporator inside, much like what's used for Walk-in Freezers some Ice makers etc (much like a residental system). That way only a rather small hole must be cut in the roof.

On second thought makes one wonder if a residental type system could be modified for this type of use.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 08-25-2002, 10:46 AM:

I know wew've talked about this before, but what about having a closed intake to the lamps, and running a vent to the outside? I know this might work up north were it's cooler, but Texas get's REAL hot outside. If an intake vent was placed low outside to get whatever cool air was there, would that work? Cheaper then an new HVAC unit and install....

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 08-25-2002, 07:25 PM:

I've worked a theatre for years where the thermostat located in the 2nd floor waiting room outside the booth cooled or heated both the booth and waiting room, and in addition the managers office. The auditorium had its own thermostats.

The managers seldom realized the booth had additional heat sources from the lamphouse and sound rack, and claimed my setting was freezing them. Then patrons and floor staff used to reset the thermostat according to their whims or sense of mischief. To correct this the manager had a metal locked box installed over the thermostat.
I managed to get a duplicate key from an A/C repairman. Once a crappy digital battery-operated thermostat capable of 24 separate cycle settings was installed and promptly ceased working. No one knew how to set it, or set it in a different way. Finally I got the A/C men to install a simple round Honeywell thermostat, but the real change was a change of manager.

Obviously the real solution would be for the projection booth to have a separate climate control from the rest of the theatre.