Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 4-track mag festival at the Egyptian

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 09-28-2002, 12:50 PM:

Copied from Jeff's post on rec.arts.movies.tech (not up on the Cinematheque's site yet). Yet another reason for me to get back to LA:

4-TRACK MAGNETIC STEREO FESTIVAL - Egyptian Theatre, Los Angeles

Presented by SabuCat Productions

Friday, November 29 - 7:30 PM
Original 4-Track Technicolor Print - Complete Version!!
PORGY & BESS, 1959, 138 min. Dir. Otto Preminger.
Discussion following with actor Brock Peters and other guests (tbc).

Saturday, November 30 - 4:00 PM
Only Existing 4-Track Stereo Print!!
JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH, 1959, 20th Century Fox, 132 min.
Dir. Henry Levin. British LPP print.

Saturday, November 30 - 7:30 PM
Double Feature:
THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE, 1967, Universal, 138 min.
Dir. George Roy Hill. Technicolor

SWEET CHARITY, 1969, Universal, 133 min. Dir. Bob Fosse. Technicolor

Friday, December 6 - 7:00 PM
SCARFACE, 1983, Universal, 170 min. Dir. Brian de Palma.

Friday, December 6 - 10:15 PM
AIRPORT, 1970, Universal, 137 min. Dir. George Seaton. Technicolor

Saturday, December 7 - 5:00 PM
PAINT YOUR WAGON, 1969, Paramount, 166 min. Dir. Joshua Logan.
Technicolor

Saturday, December 7 - 9:00 PM
THE CONQUEROR, 1956, Universal, 111 min. Dir. Dick Powell. Technicolor
Plus, the rare Atomic Era short, "Survival City," 1955,
20th Century Fox, approx. 20 min. Dir. Anthony Muto.

Sunday, December 8 - 5:00 PM
PEPE, 1960, Columbia, 195 min. Dir. George Sidney.
Uncut Technicolor print!
Plus, the short "The Miracle of Stereophonic Sound," 1954
20th Century Fox, approx. 20 min.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-28-2002, 10:18 PM:

It is interesting to see that Scarface had a 4-track magnetic soundtrack in 1983, a few years after the introduction of Dolby Stereo. When did they stop to put magnetic tracks on 35mm? I have never heard such a soundtrack, how does it compare to Dolby Stereo?
Michael

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-28-2002, 11:41 PM:

Probably Fantasia was one of the last 4-track releases in the mid-80s. For Early 80s (post Dolby), Scarface, Blues Brothers, and Yentel come quickly to mind.

A good 4-track print can bury a Dolby SVA print...given equivalent noise reduction. Yentel and Fantasia had Dolby-A (format 23), I don't know about the others.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 09-29-2002, 04:01 AM:

I think AGAINST ALL ODDS (January, 1984) was the last mag 4-track film released. The tracks were Dolby "A" encoded.

It would be a bit nicer if they would show Porgy and Bess and Airport in 70mm prints. I just saw Hello Dolly in 70mm there and it was truly incredible in its image, even besting 2001: a Space Odyssey shown right before it.

BTW, does anyone out there know if Thoroughly Modern Millie used 70mm blow-ups for its roadshow engagements? Or was this 35mm 4-track magoptic only?

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 09-30-2002, 12:38 AM:

quote:
Probably Fantasia was one of the last 4-track releases in the mid-80s.

Weren't the '50s, '60s & '70s rereleases of Fantasia magnetic four-track stereo, and the '80s rereleases optical Dolby Stereo?

quote:
[Mag Stereo releases after the introduction of optical Dolby Stereo]: Scarface, Blues Brothers, and Yentel come quickly to mind.

Some others: The Deep, Damnation Alley, The Buddy Holly Story, The Swarm, Hair, The Best Little Whorehouse In Texas, and Twinkle, Twinkle, "Killer" Kane

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 09-30-2002, 12:48 AM:

QUOTE:

quote:
Wasn't the 1977 rerelease magnetic four-track stereo, and the '80s rereleases optical Dolby Stereo?

The 1983 release with replaced digitally recorded music was rleased in both Dolby stereo optic and Dolby A encoded 4-track magoptic prints. The Avco played the mag print accompanied with Michael Jackson's THRILLER music video.

The IDOLMAKER was another dual inventory Dolby stereo optic/4-TRACK mag (Dolby encoded)film.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 09-30-2002, 08:57 AM:

"Idolmaker" from United Artists was also 4 Track Stereo. But the
movie "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" was 3 Track (L/C/R)
Stereo. It had no surround track on the prints. We played it at the
Paramount Theatre in Hollywood and had a screening over at the
Hollywood Pacific Theatre too. And saw it over at the Plitt Century Plaza Theatre. The current MCA VHS release has no note of being in Stereo anymore.

The Picwood Theatre was remodeled in the mid 60's. It was booked
with "Millie" in 4 Track Stereo. I do not remember seeing a 70mm
print of "Millie".

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 09-30-2002, 09:42 AM:

Some other mag prints from the same Dolby era. Suspiria, A Bridge Too Far, 35mm prints of Capricorn One, The Blue Lagoon.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 09-30-2002, 09:48 AM:

QUOTE:

quote:
But the
movie "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" was 3 Track (L/C/R)
Stereo. It had no surround track on the prints.

When you say there was no surround track, do you mean there was literally no mag stripe where the surround track would go, or just that there was no surround information recorded on that track?

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 09-30-2002, 10:44 AM:

No sound info. on track. Just like "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner"
was 4 track Mag stereo, but no surround info on track. (L/C/R only)
And yes, there was a four stripe of mag on the print. Sometimes the
studios would release films with no surround. We checked this at
three theatres. The mix was really not that great, I remember
Universal was not happy with it either.

Right now the double system preview print for Columbia's "Maid in Manhattan" is a 3 Track (L/C/R).

A fews years ago we ran a late show of "Airport" in 4 Track Mag stereo
in the Chinese Theatre's mainhouse. It looked and sounded so Good.
We also ran "West Side Story" and "The Great Race" both in 70MM on
a late show. Across the street at the Paramount Theatre we ran a
preview 3 track print of "Empire Strikes Back". Those were the best
days those theatres will every have.

I gave Jeff, two 70MM reels of "Porgy and Bess".

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-01-2002, 10:37 AM:

The 1983 Fantasia 4-track prints (with Dolby A and no 12kHz tone) were mag-only although there is still space where the optical track would go since this is Academy ratio, not Scope. If there were magoptical prints they would have been mono optical and that seems unlikely given the highly touted new track.

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 10-01-2002, 03:43 PM:

The mag prints of "Jesus Christ Superstar" were 3 track (stripes) and had large perforations rather than "foxhole".

------------------
Bob Throop

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-01-2002, 03:50 PM:

Universal also had 70MM Blow-ups of "Jesus Christ Superstar".
"Jesus Christ Superstar" was photographed in Todd-AO 35.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 10-01-2002, 04:46 PM:

quote:
Universal also had 70MM Blow-ups of "Jesus Christ Superstar".

I don't think the blow-ups surfaced in the U.S. until a 1974/75 re-release.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-01-2002, 05:13 PM:

That's right.

"Jesus Christ Superstar" had play dates in 70MM at the Cinerama Dome and National General's Village Theatre and I think also at Hollywood Pacific Theatre.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 10-01-2002, 05:34 PM:

According to the 70mm database of Widescreen Review, Jesus Christ Superstar played (in addition to the 9-17-74 Dome screening) at the Plitt Century Plaza (starting Nov. 21, 1975) and UA Pasadena (starting 12-25-02). No mention of any Village dates (and by this time was a Mann theatre).

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 10-11-2002, 02:29 AM:

Paul Linfesty wrote:

quote:
According to the 70mm database of Widescreen Review, Jesus Christ Superstar played (in addition to the 9-17-74 Dome screening) at the Plitt Century Plaza (starting Nov. 21, 1975) and UA Pasadena (starting 12-25-02). No mention of any Village dates (and by this time was a Mann theatre).

Thanks for plugging my work! However, that date for the UA Pasadena run should read 12-25 of 1975 rather than 12-25 of this year!

Back to the discussion of 4-track releases. Here are some possible 4-track mag stereo titles from the "Dolby era". Can any of you longtime projectionists or astute moviegoers confirm???

King Kong (1976)
The Man Who Fell To Earth (1976)
People Of The Wind (1976)
The Car (1977)
Mohammad, Messenger Of God (1977)
Sorcerer (1977)
The Turning Point (1977)
The Fury (1978)
Message From Space (1978)
The Wiz (1978)
1941 (1979)
All That Jazz (1979)
The Champ (1979)
Meteor (1979)
9 To 5 (1980)
Xanadu (1980)
The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
An American Werewolf In London (1981)
Halloween II (1981)
History Of The World Part I (1981)
E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial (1982)
Trading Places (1983)

I realize a few of those may have had some 70mm six-track prints, but I'm asking specifically about 35mm four-track versions. Thanks.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 10-11-2002, 06:02 AM:

I'm not a projectionist, but I can confirm (based on viewing) the following:
The Man Who Fell to Earth (Vogue, SF)also advertised in stereo in the SF Chronicle theatre directory

Movies I've seen advertised in 4-track stereo in various markets:

King Kong ( I THINK stereo popped up in directories in LA Times shortly after it opened. It definitely was advertised in Texas during a "Roadshow" style release (advanced tickets).Maybe San Antonio?

The Car (a Variety blurb mentioned this was the first 4-Track stereo release for Universal since The Hindenburg.)

Mohammad, Messenger of God (advertised in 4-track in some markets)

Sorcerer (Variety blurb mentioned an overture being shipped out to theatres to be attached before the beginning, some in mag stereo, others in optic. I'm assuming the mag stereo overtures would go with mag prints. I MAY remember seeing a stereo mention for the Century in SJ.

The Turning Point (Stereo was listed in some first-run engagements).

All That Jazz (a 1980 booking at the Cinerama Dome said "for the first time in 4-track Dolby Stereo" is indicative of mag, since 4-track Dolby usually meant Dolby A encoded Mag prints.

Meteor (widely advertised in 4-track Stereo in various markets)

Other titles I havent seen mentioned lately that had mag stereo releases include The Amityville Horror, The Gauntlet, and Suspiria.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-11-2002, 08:56 AM:

Michael

King Kong, All That Jazz, Amityville Horror, Meteor, Mohammad all had 4 Track non-Dolby prints.

King Kong played the Bruin
All That Jazz played the Avco
Amityville Horror & Meteor played the Plitt Century Plaza
Mohammad, Messenger of God played the SRO's Paramount

There was a preview print of "Empire Strikes Back" that was a
3 Track mag print.

"The Wiz" was Dolby A opt. at the Dome. (No 4 Track print there)
"Xanadu" was Dolby A opt at the Chinese.
"Halloween II" was Dolby A opt at the Picwood.

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 10-11-2002, 07:36 PM:

Michael>

1941 and Meteor were mag/opt non dolby prints in Denmark (one print each !) Some few from your list were Dolby A (optical), but most of your titles were ran in mono here !

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 10-14-2002, 10:23 AM:

quote:
All That Jazz played the Avco

in 4-track mag? Then why did the later engagement at the Dome advertise "For the first time in 4-track Dolby Stereo?"

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-14-2002, 01:01 PM:

It may have been Pacific, 20th. Century-Fox just added alittle Hype
to that engagement at the Dome. Because their was a 4 Track print at
the AVCO. That print sat there for while.

Where Movie Going is an Event

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-04-2002, 09:33 PM:

Two more 4-track mag films I remember from Columbia:
1978: Thank God It's Friday

1979: Nightwing

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-05-2002, 12:24 AM:

I'm wondering if Brad has figured out what 4-track print was used to make the tone and noise loops I sent him.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-05-2002, 02:25 PM:

In the early 80 Samual Goldywn had the rights to OKLAHOMA! and SOUTH PACIFIC, both had non-Dolby 3 track mag w/o surround stripe on large standard sprocket stock. That configuration worked OK, but the sprocket do ride over the heads and can cause more wear than fox sprocket prints. We only played them on weekend runs -- only 4 shows -- so it wasn't a major issue, but I sure wouldn't feel comfortable if I had to play these for a few weeks, 5 shows a day.

And I can confirm -- Dino D's KING KONG did have 4trk mag prints.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-05-2002, 05:14 PM:

I'll hazard my guess once I get a chance to string it up. I haven't even had the spare time to go in there in a month.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 11-07-2002, 11:17 PM:

Regarding the upcoming screenings at the Egyptian in Hollywood, Jeff just posted this addition over on RAMT:

* * * * *
In addition, a special free show has been added:

Sunday, December 8 - 2:30 PM

Special Added Attraction - Free Screening!

"4-Track Magnetic Stereo and Cinemascope Demonstration Film" 1953, 20th Century Fox, approx. 90 min. This incredibly rare, 5-reel film was produced in 1953 by 20th Century Fox to sell theatre owners on the then-brand new technologies of 4-track mag stereo and Cinemascope projection. Hosted by legendary Fox studio head Darryl F. Zanuck, the film features clips from several of the first Cinemascope and stereo productions being made at the studio in the early 1950's. Please note that this, the only surviving print, is extremely faded; because of its rarity, we're including it here as a free event.

* * * * *
Hopefully I'll be back in SoCal in time to see some of these.

Ja ne,

Paul

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 11-08-2002, 07:04 PM:

About same period as Jesus Christ Superstar, we had mag three-track prints from Polanski's Macbeth and Bridge on the River Kwai.
Kwai has been released as 4-track with lots of sound from the surround channel - but those other two i've never met with the fourth channel in use. JCS and Macbeth were both Todd-AO 35 - is that coinsidal or standard ??

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-09-2002, 11:17 PM:

quote:
About same period as Jesus Christ Superstar, we had mag three-track prints from Polanski's Macbeth and Bridge on the River Kwai. JCS and Macbeth were both Todd-AO 35 - is that coinsidal or standard ?

Probably coincidental. I don't know if there was ever an intended or "standard" sound format meant to go along with productions shot in "Todd-AO 35." I think the whole "Todd-AO 35" thing was simply a case of Todd-AO (the company) realizing that the era of 65mm origination had come to a close and that if they wanted to stay in business they would need to compete with Panavision and other companies by making 35mm anamorphic lenses available. In looking over a listing of "Todd-AO 35" productions I see a bunch of inconsistencies regarding the sound formats.

Many of them were likely mono (The Getaway, Junior Bonner, The Devil's Rain, The Great Waldo Pepper, Gator, Mad Max, Ragtime, Conan The Barbarian, etc).

Some had mag stereo prints (Jesus Christ Superstar, etc)

Some were in optical SVA/Dolby Stereo (Hurricane, Flash Gordon, Dune, etc)

And some, including a few of the ones mentioned above, had 70mm six-track versions (Logan's Run, etc).

Bill, Paul L, Frank, Steve K, and Per:
Thanks for your responses regarding my mag stereo questions I asked earlier in this thread . Your input is appreciated.

I am planning to have a list of mag stereo releases (1953-1984) displayed in the lobby of the American Cinematheque during the upcoming mag stereo film festival; I plan to attend some of the screenings. I have prepared various lobby displays tied to a particular fest or event for the theater on other occasions, so I see no reason to overlook an opportunity to be festive for this upcoming festival as well.

I have given some thought to posting the list here on this forum to see if a discussion might ensue which could allow us film buffs and "tech-heads" an opportunity to reminisce about cherished presentation formats of the past as well as an oportunity to refine the list. Surely some of the titles included (or excluded, for that matter) might generate a bit of interest or controversy! Is this list something any of you would be interested in seeing posted here?

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-18-2002, 05:59 PM:

I ran a 4 track mag 35mm version of The Empire Strikes Back in 1983, just after Jedi came out. Still on six reels, man they were VERY full and the trunks had trouble closing.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-18-2002, 06:15 PM:

quote:
I ran a 4 track mag 35mm version of The Empire Strikes Back in 1983, just after Jedi came out. Still on six reels, man they were VERY full and the trunks had trouble closing.

Do you remember if the 4-track Empire print was Dolby or non-Dolby?

124 minute film on six reels! And wasn't the revised 127-minute Special Edition version of Empire also on six reels? (I don't recall the changeover cues appearing in different scenes compared to the original version. In fact, I think only a single reel change occured in a different scene out of the 19 total reels of the three original trilogy Special Editions.)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-18-2002, 06:20 PM:

With acetate film back in the 80s, you could cram about 22-23 minutes onto a shipping reel. Now with polyester film being thinner, you can cram 26-27 or so minutes onto a shipping reel. I would assume that mag print would've been flush with the edges of the reels or slightly over, since that adds to the thickness.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-18-2002, 09:43 PM:

Indeed. Although we are inclined to think in terms of 20 minutes max it's really a 2000' reel and that's over 22 minutes. Even with triacetate stock that still left you more than a quarter inch smaller than the flanges.

I've said this before but I wish they'd made more use of 4-track during the heyday of 70mm. Not that I don't love 70mm but with the print budget unchanged making 10 fewer $15-20K 70's could have paid to upgrade a very large number of 35's to 4-track. (I can't be too specific without knowing the pricing.) As for the playback venues don't forget that the huge installed base of 70mm was fueled primarily by the Lucas, Spielberg, Star Trek and similar films being available in that gauge. If it had been announced that those would be available in 4-track for those who want it I'm sure a lot of penthouses would have been resurrected and fitted with new Teccons. Water under the bridge now.