This is topic Do you use Opera? Quick survey. in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-29-2002, 06:08 AM:
Just wondering what the opinions are here for die-hard Opera users (like me) in regards to websites written with bad code, or code that only Internet Explorer can recognize? I am finding more and more websites that even Netscape cannot display. I know the majority of users use IE because most people have Windows and most people won't bother to install a superior product since IE comes pre-installed with Windows...but for those who DO want something better and have installed Opera, what do you think?#1 When you come to these evil websites, do you bother to open up IE to view the page, or do you just say "to hell with it" and leave the website?
#2 Do you find yourself resorting to IE to see if the content is good and then deal with using IE if the website is worth it?
#3 Do you tend to not bother with websites that are reasonably interesting because you know it has non-standard code? In other words, are there sites that you would normally visit regularly if they displayed properly in Opera?
#4 When you resort to using IE to look at a webpage, are you as amazed as I am at just how many advertising popups are really on the internet?
#5 Does IE's lack of mouse button shortcuts drive you crazy?
I know Opera is far from common, but since it's users are growing I just wonder how much traffic webmasters of these sites will end up losing once Opera becomes more mainstream.
For those reading this who have no idea what I'm talking about, go to www.opera.com and download the browser. It won't take long for you to start hating all other internet browsers once you try Opera. All other browsers are so inferior that I don't even bother to check Film-Tech webpages on other browsers anymore. 
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-29-2002, 06:55 AM:
I use Opera, and I too find sites that simply don't work properly, which is senseless, as I understand that Opera is properly html compliant, surely sites should work on it and not IE/Netscape?Anyroad, if it's something I'm really interested in or need to read I'll fire up IE, if it's simply a passing visit, then I don't nother with it. If website authors can't be bothered to write it properly, then I can't be bothered to read it.
Posted by Joshua Lott (Member # 240) on 09-29-2002, 09:22 AM:
I just downloaded this browser. WOW... It does load a bunch faster. I am really impressed by it. I like the added mouse short cuts. I am still taking it for a test run.
What other types of cool things does this come with? 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-29-2002, 10:42 AM:
Well thats it...I just Dumped Navigator in favor of IE on the Mac...while just trying to look up the version of my version of Nav (4.61) it "lost" the Film-Tech page and and to start all over. Nav does that sometimes...you resize the window...it gets confused. IE 5.1 for the Mac has, thus far, been stable as compared to Navigator.
I have played with Opera for the Mac but it has locked up already on my limited use with it. So while I won't condem it, I'm not it's biggest supporter yet.
Steve
Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 09-29-2002, 11:35 AM:
I use iCab on my Macintoshes.Near the upper right corner is a smiley icon that indicates the Web page's compliance with HTML.
There are very few instances where I have to use Netscape Navigator or IE to actually accomplish something. But it does happen. I try to avoid those Web sites.
I must admit that Film-Tech works just fine in iCab, but the Smiley frowns. Most Web pages frown. Very, very few smile.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-29-2002, 11:54 AM:
Opera on the Mac is not as good as the Windows version. It still is good, however. The Mac version has been stuck on version 5 while Windows users got version 6. Damn lazy-ass Opera programmers. But now the Mac version has finally hit the version 6 beta. Finally it will have the same features and I'm sure will be the browser of choice once it's past the beta stage.
Posted by Dennis Atkinson (Member # 345) on 09-29-2002, 01:32 PM:
I use Opera 99% of the time.
For those problem sites, Netscape is used, never IE.
If Opera or Netscape cannot read a page, shame on that "web-master"!
There is no excuse for bad code on the web anymore.Dennis
killing the net one post at a time
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-29-2002, 01:36 PM:
If Opera can't look at it I send them a nasty email
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-29-2002, 02:01 PM:
Opera really rocks! The only thing I don't like about is that it does not seem to know what I leave Film-Tech and come back. When I come back, sit still shows most forums as "New Posts" - even if there is none.As an example, the Thread on "Measurement Standards" in Film Yak is the first one that comes up with a yellow folder, showing the last post was 26 September. Everything more recent than that has a red folder.
In the Ground Level Forum, anything a post later than (but not included) 25 September 2002 is considered a new post.
In the Film Handler's Forum, anything later than 26 September is considered by Opera as a new post.
On Opera start-up, I have the box checked "Show my home page"
Maybe I have Opera set up wrong....or IE 6 is hogging up the cookies....
I had Netscape in this machine once. I uninstalled it a long time ago. I have it in one of my machines in another location, but I seldom use Netscape unless IE gets confused.
Also, it won't remember my name and password to Film-Tech.
I am running Opera with Windows 2000 Professional.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-29-2002, 02:10 PM:
Joe,The little advertising windown in upper right corner is telling me that I should upgrade to Opera 7...perhaps it doesn't know I'm on a Mac?
Steve
------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 09-29-2002, 02:27 PM:
I use Opera and have very few problems. All I use IE for anymore is paying my phone bill and checking my bank account. It's funny that bellsouth.com and amsouth.com make their pages not work with Opera.Not long back, when trying to register for a class, I looked at the UAH class schedules for the first time since using Opera, and found that they displayed as one big blob instead of having line breaks in the right places. I sent an email to the uah.edu webmaster (different from our itsc.uah.edu webmaster) telling him about the problem. He told me he didn't have Opera, but for me to try the page again after he'd made a change. It still did the same thing. I decided to look at the HTML and I quickly found the problem -- tags specified in the wrong order. After editing, the page displayed fine. I wrote the guy back telling him that he was lucky that the class listings displayed properly in IE (Opera was interpreting the tags correctly for the order they were in) and told him how to fix it (probably swapping 2 lines of code in his Perl script). I didn't get a response, but a month later, it was fixed.
------------------
Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Information Site
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-29-2002, 02:54 PM:
The topic made me curious, so I downloaded Opera and I am using it right now. Opera doesn`t seem to be able to save complex pages like this one for off-line reading either. Curiously, when I save a forum page to read it later under IE, IE will not display the complete page when I open it from my hard disc. However, I can open the page in Acrobat and read it then. I had hoped that with Opera, this procedure would be unnecessary, since it is film-tech`s preferred browser.
Michael
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-29-2002, 04:11 PM:
Paul, click on "preferences" and clear your cookies. Then go into "profile" and re-submit. I do this on ubb forums from time to time as the cookie gets crumbled.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-29-2002, 04:33 PM:
I will not use MSIE for political reasons (MS is evil and I do not want to support abuse of monopoly power). MSIE may be a great browser, but I don't care; I don't like what it represents, and it doesn't run on several of the hardware/OS platforms that I regularly use. I use a mix of Lynx, Mozilla, and Netscape 4.79. If I can't view a web site in at least one of these browsers, then it probably doesn't have any content worth viewing anyway, so I ignore it. I also ignore any web sites that aren't usable without the Flash plugin installed (I don't have/want Flash...Flash is trash!).I haven't played around much with Opera, since Mozilla serves my needs well for a graphical browser. The best features are a) the ability to turn off unrequested popup windows and b) the ability to turn off animated GIFs.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-29-2002, 04:34 PM:
Netscape has its own share of problems when it comes to reading web sites correctly. The version 4.x level of Netscape sucks badly when it comes to properly displaying Cascading Style Sheets standards like levels of font substitutions and CSS positioned layer content. IE, I'm sorry to say, flattens Netscape when it comes to CSS --an item that has been in the HTML spec for a few years now.I hate the newest AOL-spam-junked-up versions of Netscape. At least Netscape 5, 6 and 7 can display CSS properly. But starting with version 6, screen hogging shit like "My Sidebar" or whatever it is called, it gives precious little space for any web pages to display. Most people have 17 inch or smaller computer monitors running at 800 X 600 or less. All that user interface trash (what we call "the chrome") elminates a lot of room for the web page content itself.
As much as many like to hate Microsoft's Internet Explorer, at least it doesn't hog up the screen with all its UI trash like Netscape. It has gotten to the point where I don't accomodate Netscape much anymore when I do web page design. If that browser is only going to give me about a 300 or less pixel wide column to fit a web page design due to their UI trash, they can just kiss off then.
Opera does a decent job with CSS, but people who use the newest WYSIWYG web page design tools like Adobe GoLive 6.0 and Macromedia DreamweaverMX have to be careful about some of their more "user friendly" design options (such as GoLive's layout grid and Dreamweaver's "Layout View"). Building pages in those modes can result in some really funky code. And that can lead to some wierd display problems. Still, DreamweaverMX is the best web page building app out there. GoLive 6.0 is pretty good too, but it isn't as easy (or as fast) to use as Dreamweaver.
I've tried Opera before, but I don't feel like paying $39 for an "ad free" version. I'm shopping around for the best deal on a new dual processor G4 Mac. And most likely when I buy one (don't hate me for this) I'm probably going to go to Microsoft's Mactopia site and get the newest version of IE for it (that is unless it already comes bundled in with Mac OS 10.2 Jaguar).
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-29-2002, 07:53 PM:
I gave up on Opera because 1) It regularly crashed my XP Home system; and 2) It had intermittent problems displaying some graphic images on Film-Tech, such as member pictures.I use IE6, and despite all the warnings from Brad, it works fine for me on F-T. All I want is a browser that works and doesn't get in the way. IE6 never crashes on me, and all web pages look fine to me as IE6 displays them (whether they are "perfect" or not doesn't concern me as long as everything "looks right"). Therefore I have no interest or motivation to mess with any other browser. If I ever do run into a web site that won't work with IE (hasn't happened yet), I would have to be extremely motivated to try something other than IE. As far as making an anti-MS political statement by not running IE, whatever floats your boat I guess... Of course my choice of IE has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the fact that I'm an MCSE and make my living supporting MS networking and office products. 
Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 09-29-2002, 08:35 PM:
On my Mac under OS X, Explorer works far better than Netscape. Netscape is much slower than IE. The only thing I now use Netscape for is for some strange reason, my online banking won't work properly under IE and for that I have to use Netscape.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-29-2002, 09:43 PM:
Steve-
Yes, the ads all come from one central Opera server, and it does not know that you use a Mac. Of course since Mac is finally getting version 6, that MUST mean that Windows is getting version 7. Hence the ad you see. 
Bobby... good luck finding a Mac that DOESN'T include IE. And when you boot it up for the first time, you will have the option of downloading the newest version if one is available (both in OS 9 and X), provided you remember to plug in that ethernet cable thingamajig. Just remember to press command-T (command is the little "apple" button on the keyboard next to Option) to get rid of the crap on the side of the screen in IE. You'll never use it anyway.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-29-2002, 09:45 PM:
I use OmniWeb most of the time. Occasionally I will check out Chimera but it's still to kludgey yet.If I find a page that doesn't load properly in OmniWeb I usually just ignore it. If it's a page I think I really want to see, I'll use IE temporarily. If the page annoys me too much I'll click-off it and never go back.
I like OmniWeb mostly because of the controls it gives me over pop-ups, cookies and banner ads. I can tell OmniWeb when to allow or deny cookies on a site-by-site basis. I can accept or deny ALL cookies by default then I can check off each site on the list as to whether to follow the default behavior or follow a "custom" behavior.
Same thing with banner ads. I can set up rules via expressions to allow or deny them.
Typically, I have the program set to allow cookies/ads that come from the same site as I'm looking at. I also deny all cookies or ads that come from any site containing the word "doubleclick".
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 09-30-2002, 08:37 AM:
I installed Opera when Brad first recommended it a few months ago. I just use it as a 2nd browser as I’m not totally convinced, I mainly use I E 6 SP1. BTW I have just downloaded the first update SP1 (service pack 1). Depending on your PC download time can take as much as two hours, mine took 70 minutes.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-30-2002, 09:00 AM:
70 minutes to 2 hours to download an update for a WEB BROWSER? Anybody besides me see something a bit screwy here?
Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 09-30-2002, 09:05 AM:
I have tried Opera, and I was impressed. However, it didn't want to know about my internet banking.I must admit that a 'one size fits all' browser solution is the simplest one; hence I use IE6.
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-30-2002, 09:54 AM:
Joe, remember that here in the UK, unless you are amazingly rich, it's basically dial up or nothing, when you can actually get a connection!
Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 09-30-2002, 12:34 PM:
Brad, I'm including your questions again in case people don't want to look back to page 1.Just wondering what the opinions are here for die-hard Opera users (like me) in regards to websites written with bad code, or code that only Internet Explorer can recognize? I am finding more and more websites that even Netscape cannot display. I know the majority of users use IE because most people have Windows and most people won't bother to install a superior product since IE comes pre-installed with Windows...but for those who DO want something better and have installed Opera, what do you think?
#1 When you come to these evil websites, do you bother to open up IE to view the page, or do you just say "to hell with it" and leave the website?
If the content is something I really want or need to see, I will open up IE, as netscape is becoming more unreliable than Opera in some cases, thank you Bill Gates.
#2 Do you find yourself resorting to IE to see if the content is good and then deal with using IE if the website is worth it?
I use Opera always unless a specific page requires me to do otherwise, and then I will typically only use it for that one site.
#3 Do you tend to not bother with websites that are reasonably interesting because you know it has non-standard code? In other words, are there sites that you would normally visit regularly if they displayed properly in Opera?
perhaps. I have run into sites that might be interesting, but don't seem worth the time to bother with IE.
#4 When you resort to using IE to look at a webpage, are you as amazed as I am at just how many advertising popups are really on the internet?
Oh yeah. It's pretty ridiculous.
#5 Does IE's lack of mouse button shortcuts drive you crazy?
I think you are referring to the mac version here. the mac version of Opera does not work very well on my Imac at work, so I typically just use IE there, as netscape usually just causes my computer to completely lock up.
At some point, I will probably register Opera, just to give them my support, but until I do, I will not complain about the ads. I don't find the ads at all obtrusive. It was a smart way to get their browser out for free without losing a ridiculous amount of money. I would much rather have a constant ad in the upper right extreme of my browser than have 2-3 ads pop up in seperate windows when I load certain websites.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-30-2002, 08:48 PM:
Dial up is still the standard in the UK? I did not know that. Even so, that is still a BIG update for a web browser.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-30-2002, 09:38 PM:
That kind of download time really makes me appreciate DSL. I like being able to watch Quicktime movie trailers in the "large" setting and watch it as it downloads in real time. I have a dial up connection at work, and I hate it. The shop is just not quite close enough to Southwestern Bell's switch to get a DSL hookup.It is a real shame the telecom companies in the United States and Europe are hurting so bad. Their financial hardships have drastically slowed down the build up of broadband infrastructure. And the bad thing is that AFFORDABLE and widely available broadband Internet with real time streaming video (even in HD form) is what will be needed to get the computer industry out of its deep hole. In fact, that kind of thing may be needed to bring about a new level of efficiency and speed in business to get the world's economy as a whole back on a proper, positive track.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-01-2002, 12:52 AM:
David S. took the words right out of my mouth. IE works for me, I've never had a problem with it regarding film-tech other than having to hit "re-load" occasionally to refresh a page. Our local phone people finally announced DSL availability to start in November. That's the good news...the bad news? 80 bucks a month, due to our low population.
I hate dialup, but I use the web on three different computers (home, theatre, day job) and I use my personal account for all three, so I'm hoping they will come up with some kind of package deal, otherwise I'm afraid I'll be stuck in dialup land for awhile, in one or two places at least. I'm sure they'll get plenty of complaints, so I'm hopeful they'll rethink the prices.
Our local cable company was just sold, so I'm sure the new owners will eventually come up with cable modem availability too, so the dark ages are starting to look a little bright around here.
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-01-2002, 05:02 PM:
After two days with Opera, I see that it has a number of fine features such as the mouse movements. But I still don`t see it as vastly superior to IE. Saving and off-line reading pages such as the film-tech forums works after all, I don`t know what I did wrong in the first place.
However, when you save a complete page with IE, IE puts all the images in a new directory which has the same name as the page. This is much better than Opera or the older versions of Navigator (I don`use it anymore since ver. 6.X) which pour the images in the same directory as the html-file.
Michael
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 10-03-2002, 09:00 AM:
Pete wrote,
quote:
Joe, remember that here in the UK, unless you are amazingly rich, it's basically dial up or nothing, when you can actually get a connection!
I’m on AOL 24/7 and connections are never a problem, but it does cost £15.99 (US $25) a month. Broadband is available in my area which I would like, but that costs £34.99 (US $55) a month. And you have to buy a modem pack for £85.
A friend of mine is with BT 24/7 and a pound cheaper, but his connection can take a long time, and frequently can loose it.
For the time being until Broadband prices hopefully fall, I have installed Internet Boost which seems to work well.
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-03-2002, 08:37 PM:
quote:
70 minutes to 2 hours to download an update for a WEB BROWSER? Anybody besides me see something a bit screwy here?
Internet Explorer includes shell updates for Windows, adding to the total size. That's why most of the time you can fix a messed up Windows OS by un-installing IE, installing Windows on top of Windows and re-installing IE.
Of course it would be nice if Microsoft better documented that, but it's an 'integrated browser/shell' so I guess they don't really have to because you're not just updating your browser, you're updating your 'browser/shell'.
Either way, I keep IE up-to-date and use Opera.
Posted by David Rigby (Member # 1301) on 10-04-2002, 06:33 AM:
Way back in IE 3 / Netscape 3 days I was a big Netscape fan. NS 3 was way more stable than IE 3 and IE4. I haven't used Opera. Anyhoo, Netscape 4.x came out and frankly it was afwul. Remember at this time there was very little concern for standards so as IE and Netscape evolved they developed proprietary interfaces for doing more complex stuff. In this respect, Netscape were the worst offenders of the bunch - since IE 3.x IE's object model has been moving more and more towards the W3C DOM though backward compatibility has meant that IE retains support for a lot of proprietary stuff that shouldn't really be there. Netscape 4 introduced a totally prorietary object model that was at odds with the DOM and that coupled with its general instability on MS Windows platforms caused Netscape to lose a lot of support. Yes, OK, we all know about the wrongdoings of MS in this respect - but had NS 4+ been a better product then more NS users (like me) would have retained NS when migrating to a new Windows platform rather than going with IE. For the work I do there is no viable option to IE. I like the fact that NS6 is now 100% standards compliant and hopefully this will mean a convergence of at least basic functionality over time so the exact flavour of browser becomes less of an issue (though Netscape trumpeting on about this like they're the great champions of compatibility is a bit rich when the previous version was such an abomination, standards-wise...). As far as Opera is concerned, whenever I've looked at it in the past it's always been deficient in terms of XML / css / DOM support - if that's changed I'll certainly take another look. David
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 09-25-2005, 08:18 PM:
It has been 1087 days since the last post.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-25-2005, 08:18 PM:
Resurrecting this thread to point out that Opera has FINALLY removed the ads from their free browser. There's just one version, it's free, and it's free of ads.
Opera v8.5
Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 09-25-2005, 08:21 PM:
I haven't used Opera since I discovered Mozilla Firefox.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-25-2005, 08:24 PM:
I'm in what's apparently a very small minority of strange people who thinks Firefox blows. Opera ain't perfect, but it has some features I really like.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-25-2005, 08:42 PM:
The only thing I don't like about Firefox (at least the Mac version, anyway) is that when you click on a link and it opens a new browser window, you have to move your mouse before the scrollwheel works on the front-most window. If you don't move your mouse and mess with the scrollwheel, the page underneath starts scrolling.
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-25-2005, 10:50 PM:
I still use Opera even though I don't think it is much better than IE. I am just more used to Opera, but I wouldn't miss anything I think if I switched back.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-25-2005, 11:08 PM:
FWIW, Mozilla released Firefox 1.0.7 a couple days ago. It fixes some kind of security vulnerability. I don't think that fix has been worked into the Firefox 1.5 Beta (that can be downloaded).
I downloaded the new installer for Opera, but haven't tried it out yet. Will be interesting to see how it works without the ads.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-26-2005, 06:47 AM:
I know Firefox blows on Win98...seems to be doing well on Win XP. Opera I prefer a bit to Firefox...I paid for the registration on both my Mac and Windows...just to get away from IE.
So you say they only have a free version of Opera now? I'm still running version 7 something (7.54, I think).
One thing I don't like about Firefox is that it always seems a bit behind in Film-Tech...you click to jump to the unread or latest additions to a thread...it is always sending me to one or two vists ago...Opera always gets it right. Possibly a setting not done properly.
Opera will not always work with Java sites whereas Firefox will.
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-26-2005, 07:22 AM:
The problem is that the "image uploads" don't have height tags so as the images load it pushes everything down (which is why it's sometimes a couple posts off).
Opera if I recall correctly (I only used it a few times) centered the loaded page around what you saw (so images above pushed the top of the page up and images below pushed the bottom of the page down).
Opera was giving away free license keys two weeks ago. Funny that it's just all free now.
Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 09-30-2005, 10:11 PM:
I've switched to Firefox about 6 months ago because Opera kept crashing on me constantly (regardless of which version I used) at work (not at home, curiously) and I'd lose all my browser windows when it would crash, and have to login again.
Firefox blocks popups, but for some reason, many get through, while Opera really blocks them.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-30-2005, 11:22 PM:
Current release of Opera seems very stable, I haven't had any crashes. For whatever that's worth.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-01-2005, 09:12 PM:
Been on Opera 8.5 for the past week on both Mac OS X (10.3) and Windows XP Pro...stable on both, no crashes.
Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-01-2005, 10:56 PM:
Opera works for me fine. I tried Firefox and just didn't feel like learning anything new so it languished a while.
Opera now has a "correcting" script function that fixes a few popular sites that refuse to follow standards or require IE - it corrects page "errors" so the result looks like what IE shows or it will return a good fake IE response if the site requires IE but doesn't use any IE tricks that Opera can't handle.
I haven't checked if this fixed the problems with hotmail or if MS stopped sending invalid scripts to non-IE browsers... but Hotmail works fine for me now.
I really miss the mouse gestures when I have to use IE.