This is topic Fix my computer! in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001351
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-17-2002, 10:13 PM:
I've always had good luck with buying generic PC's so this past December I bought a new system from a firm (Cyber Power) a friend recommended. He said I'd get more bang for the buck with a AMD system and recalling a 486 system I had with a non-Intel chip I went that route. Cyber Power is vendor where you configure your own system. I ordered mine sans OS. They assembled it and formated the HD. I installed W98/SE when I got it.AMD Athlon XP-1900+ CPU
Shuttle AK31A KT-266A 4X AGP motherboard
512MB PC266 DDR RAM (2 * 256)
Leadtek Geforce-2MX 400 64MB Video
HD Maxtor 40GB 7200 RPM UDMA 133 Harddrive
Creative Labs SB Live 5.1 OEM Sound
USR 56K V.90 HW PCI 2676 OEM Modem
ARTEC 16X DVD-ROM EIDE
case/fans/keyboard/mouse etc.
To the above as-built config I added my CD/R/RW burner and the network card for DSL.
The problem I have is that it crashes or locks up constantly. Several times on some evenings. And in many different ways. Programs crashing over and over til reboot. Blue screens of death. Total lockups. Or lockups where the mouse still moves but nothing else. A friend said maybe it was inadequate cooling. I said heck, I'm running with all the covers off so probably not that!
So what can I do with this thing? How can one diagnose it to find out if it's a hardware problem or some weird software problem. I've reloaded the OS several times. I really don't want to switch, especially not to XP. Are there tiny incompatibilities with the AMD chip? What should I do? I'm considering scrapping it and starting over.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-17-2002, 10:28 PM:
I've never had any problems with AMD chips. In fact I greatly prefer them over Intel. I don't think that is your problem. The problem is probably one of the drivers to one of the cards (network card, graphics card, etc) or something like that. You said you reloaded the system many times. Does this include the drivers for each component, or just the OS? Something you have is conflicting with another. Now you just need to figure out what it is. Try disconnecting one peripheral. Does the problem go away? If so that's your problem.... process of elimination. Of course it would be hard to do this with graphics cards, etc. Did the vendor send you the proper software drivers with all the stuff in your unit?I'm so glad I don't have to deal with drivers.
Why do you have a modem AND a network card?
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-17-2002, 11:06 PM:
What brand of RAM, not speed, and was it really good high end RAM, or just some generic stuff? And is it really capable of operating at that speed? Alot of RAM out there is very inferior, some I think is even partially damaged when you get it, possibly by static, possibly the dealer just got sent some lower quality stuff, or reject stuff by his distributer. The dealer can never tell unless he can test each stick before it goes into his stock. Very little new hardware goes to waste! That NEVER happens except with high end RAM. ALSO, and this is a BIG ALSO. Many dealers will re-sell you returned components that were returned as defective, tested and they felt it was ok and put back into stock. However, they may not have tested say a CPU under the same conditions, running the same program that was going down, etc. I've been told by many IT techs that this is VERY common. One large computer retailer here in SLC does this. I used to buy from them and was sold a returned CPU once. It was obvious as it still had traces of heatsink goop on it. Got a refund on it and never went back there. Its hard to know when this is going to happen, its inexcusable, but its alot more common than you might think as these dealers sometimes have a 5% or less profit margin!!
You can download programs such as SiSoft Sandra and others that can measure bandwidth of your memory, performance of your CPU, and other hardware in your computer. I had similar problems with an AMD machine I built on an ASUS mommieboard. All it took was some really good quality RAM, in this case I put in Micron, and it never locked up again except in very rare cases. I also stayed away from AMD after this experience. Have not had any major probs with any Intel/Asus, or A-bit based machines I've put together. There may be those of you that want to support the underdogs as far as CPU's, motherboards, and other hardware but in the last 4 years I've built way in excess of 100 computers and have found that its best to stick with name brand hardware.....I.E.: IBM hard drives, Intel CPU's, A-Bit, or Asus motherboards, etc. Doing so makes things alot more reliable in the long haul. Saving a bit of money on hardware here and there now may only end up costing you much more in the long run with the troubles that will creep in. Many software engineers insist on Intel CPU's for instance as their software is written around the functions of the Intel CPU's, and what it can and cannot do. The SLC area is a major software design center, and at computer trade shows I have had this Intel/Asus feedback on several occasions from software designers.
As a state, last year, Utah had more PC's per person than any other state in the country. Don't ask me why though.........
Most of my computer problems have been bad hard drives, or OS related problems. Rarely a computer based problem. The machine I am typing on now is 3 years old. Dual 1 ghz P3's and running XP Pro.
BTW, you are only using half the computing power available to you with that OS. Runbning a 32 bit system CAN make things alot more reliable overall. Some of your software is probably designed to run under a 32 bit based system. Its not about speed, which does increase normally, but just about reliability, crunching lots of data without crashing. In my case mainly large photographic files, sometimes approaching 100mb per image. Even these photographic files though are small today. But this dual P3 machine never crashes. It also runs 24 hours a day, is in a server case with beefy supply, and has way too many fans and too much Utah desert dust it it.
Mark
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-17-2002, 11:14 PM:
Maybe I am repeating something here - the other posts are so long I only quickly scanned them. For AMD systems with nvidia graphics adapters you usually need a special mainboard driver as they are optimised for Intel chipsets. I have often seen exactly the symptoms you described. You should find the driver on your mainboard manufacturer`s website.
Michael
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-17-2002, 11:19 PM:
I would be laery of the interaction of the Video card and the sound card. Also, Mark may have a point in the memory. Check your Bios setup closely.
I have had no problems running AMD as I have a very similiar setup to yours. I run a AMD Athlon 850 with a Geforce video card and 512MB of ram. Changing your operating system will not help you out. It is a hardware issue for sure. Try running your PC in protected mode that you can selectively tell it which driver to load and see what happens. Somewhere in Win98 there is a log that tells you what happened and where and gives you technical details about it which sometimes will help you out. I just cant remeber what it is.
Anyway, good luck with it.------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-17-2002, 11:25 PM:
I agree that he has a hardware, and or driver problem. I am only pointing out that a 32 bit OS may bring some new reliability into his system over the 16 bit he is now using. As far as 16 bit systems Windows ME is far more stable than any of the 98 versions. Its designed to run a bit slower for increased reliability.
Mark
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-17-2002, 11:31 PM:
Mark, I agree that Win98 is woefully crappy but it should be a lot more stable than what Steve is experiencing. If steve can get it going long enough he may be able to look in MY COMPUTER\SYSTEM\PROPERTIES and look for hardware conflicts and memory reports. I think that was the right path. Damn Allergies are messing me up bad, cant remeber shit. Oh wait thats age. Nevermind.
------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-17-2002, 11:55 PM:
Modem and Network card: I got DSL a few months after getting this system; the problems were there before I got it. Still good to have if DSL drops out and I have one ISP where shell access is only allowed while connecting to their system.AFAIK, W95/98 are 32-bit OS's with some 16-bit legacy components.
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-17-2002, 11:55 PM:
All of the above said is true but you should really check out the mainboard driver issue. I built up a system with a friend recently, and it crashed all the time until we installed that driver.
One way to see if it is the graphics adapter which causes the problem is to close all applications, maybe unload drivers for network adapter, modem etc. and run a graphics test such as 3D Mark. The system should crash almost instantly.
Michael
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-18-2002, 12:10 AM:
I'm wondering about the use of Win98/SE as the OS for the kind of hardware on this system. For one thing, I am wondering about the AGP 4X rated video card and main board in use with an OS designed for no better than AGP 2X use. Just a hunch on that. Same goes for the use of DDR memory on the main board. There could be a conflict with the version of USB supported on the board. Does it have USB 2.0? If so, you could have a conflict with the OS there. I put in a USB 2.0 card on my Dell machine, and while the driver would work with Win98/SE, it was not without going through a complex install procedure first. The issue is much easier with later versions of Windows.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-18-2002, 12:52 AM:
Is the power supply adequate for everything in that case? Have you tried swapping it with another one? Are all of the cards and connectors seated firmly?
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-18-2002, 01:33 AM:
1. I have worked on AMD systems that use nVidia GeForce2MX cards successfully under Win98SE.2. I wouldn't want to see anything less than a TRUE 350W Power Supply in that computer. A 350W power supply should be heavier than a good 300W power supply if it's the real thing. At an absolute minimum I would have a 300W PS in it.
3. Try under-clocking the processor (yeah I know you paid for that fast chip). This will reduce it's power consumption substantially and is perfectly safe to do. I've done this for people that won't spend any more money on a system they bought with an inadequate PS using Athlon 1.4GHz chips and DDR SDRAM (both of which are power hungry). Dropping those chips to 1040MHz solved the same problem you're having (and also indicated that they needed to spend some cash on a new PS).
Question: Does the system make it through the entire OS install process without any problems. And what is the CPU temp (might be able to check this right after a crash in the system bios under power settings, I'm not sure about that board though).
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-18-2002, 01:52 AM:
In addition to some of the comments above, better check your motherboard and make sure the jumpers/dip switches are configured properly. Consult the manual for the MB. The setup can be tricky. If you pulled the board out of the box and installed it, it needs someone who knows how to set it up properly. I'll bet that's your problem. If one jumper is not proper, the system will be very unstable. Sometimes a good computer shop that knows how to configure the motherboard will sit down with you and go through the pages of the manual and tell you what the settings and jumpers should be for things such as the CPU speed, DRAM clock speed, bus speed, and all that good crap.Tech support form the MB's manufacturer can be the key if you are not sure what is going on.
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-18-2002, 02:09 AM:
Daryl,
did those system have the mainboard driver I wrote about installed? Did they come with everything pre-installed?
Michael
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-18-2002, 02:43 AM:
All good ideas to check on this thread. Personally I would attack the BIOS and try underclocking the processor first. I've had this same problem before many times and frequently you will have to get some updated drivers for things to work at full speed. Go to the manufacturer's website and check their forum and download section. It won't take long for people to report the problem.Second I would check the RAM. You got DDR ram which is great. Nothing beats Crucial brand registered ram, but have had very good results from Micron as well. I have had many other brands including generic brand ram in the past and it was a nightmare.
Just an FYI, make sure all of your cables are tucked to the side so that the airflow from the front to the rear of the case is not restricted in any way. Also, use the processor manufacturer's heatsink/fan so you don't void your warranty. If you run with the side of the case off, you are actually defeating the purpose of the cooling fans by allowing the air to sort of wander about instead of being forced by the components. (You did put one to blast air out the rear, right?) Always run with the panels on. With that, nothing beats an Enlite case for ease of assembly/disassembly.
Anyway, that's what I'd check first. Now that you have read to the end of this post, your warranty on my advice has expired. 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-18-2002, 03:45 AM:
Michael, I don't recall trying to use the GeForce drivers before installing up-to-date VIA or ALi drivers. I _always_ install the chipset drivers before anything else to avoid such problems (with both AGP and PCI adapters). So yes, as you said, you'll probably need a current chipset driver to get the nVidia card to work perfectly (just the same as with many ATI cards). However, I've never seen an nVidia card (out of literally hundreds) cause the described problem, even with fairly out-dated chipset drivers, afterall the GeForce2 is fairly out-dated itself.
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-18-2002, 03:55 AM:
You seem to be very systematic in your installation procedure. That is probably why you have never had this problem. Most people simply go with the drivers included in Windows and get punished for that.
Michael
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-18-2002, 12:03 PM:
I use a lot of the MSI AMD motherboard combo in our shop and several Abit/AMD combos with no problems several of the MSI boards the onboard Geforce video and sound are being used others I have Diamond or ATI video cards and Soundblaster cards
When I build a machine I start with only the video card installed and load the OS then after the system shows no conflicts then I add one card at a time and its drivers and resolve any conflicts as I go. THis can be more difficult with on board components
It can be very frustrating
One common problem I found was the network cards tend to want to hook the IRQ for the Via hardrive controller
Posted by Jan Hackett (Member # 1231) on 10-18-2002, 02:41 PM:
All of the above good answers...I had same problem with same chipset in sys I built for a friend...took me weeks to solve after changing MB with same and processor and os......Had to change MB manufacturer to upgraded chipset. Seems chipset on that series of some MB's has defect....I changed out MB to completely different chipset with same rest of components and problem went a way. Now my friend has a super cooled system when all really needed was a MB free of defects...............------------------
Jan Hackett
Theater Operations Manager
Extreme Screen Dynatheater
NM Museum of Natural History Foundation
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-18-2002, 03:15 PM:
Brad pointed out what I was going to say - running with covers off will usually cause components in the machine to run hotter, not cooler. A well-engineered case is designed to optimize airflow across critical components (like hard drives) with the cover in place and all fans running. I've seen plenty of clone cases that have poor airflow, or some fan isn't working at all (check the the power supply fan too). Airflow could be blocked by cables or something. Make sure the CPU is getting plenty of forced air cooling on it. Low-priced cases and power supplies generally don't use ball-bearing fans and those fans tend to fail within a few months. Also all the expansion slot covers should be in place -- missing expansion slot covers will disrupt proper airflow. I've been down the clone road many times in corporate environments, and we always ended up going back to name-brand systems like Dell because they don't self-destruct after 6 months of 24/7 use...Flakey RAM would be my 2nd best guess.
Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 10-18-2002, 03:49 PM:
Check with Shuttle, make sure that you have the current BIOS revision, if not, follow their instructions on flashing your BIOS.
2nd Check the core voltages of your processor in the system BIOS and make sure that it is set properly, most BIOSs will also allow you to check other voltage levels comming from the power supply.Athalon's are very hot running processors, however as long as it was installed properly, and the fan is running you should be OK
If the shop put all the hardware together, you may want to check under the processor heat sink, and make sure that the heatsink compound is mating with the processor, some heat sinks have a bit of tape that must be removed. This can cause the processor to run too hot and damage the processor.
Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 10-18-2002, 08:00 PM:
I'll jump on the bandwagon here -
Have you connected to http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com and installed all of the *critical* updates? I run win98 SE on a machine here that is made with newer components. I've discovered that a lot of win98 drivers for parts that have been made recently were written and tested on 98 systems that had the latest patches and services releases for the OS itself. If you try installing these 3rd party drivers on a vanilla win98 SE, things will go haywire. I've had circumstances where everything is fine until you install, say, a video driver and then the system becomes very unstable. I install directX 8.1 and the stability problem vanishes. When I load win98 SE onto a newer vanilla hardware configuration, I do it in this order - clean format drive C, install OS, install motherboard chipset driver (if applicable) install DSL or nic or modem and configure for internet access. Download the latest drivers for the remaining components that still require drivers and install them starting with the video driver. Install all of the Microsoft critical updates. Install some of the Microsoft recommended updates (specifically DirectX 8.1). and last but not least, make sure you're running a current vesion of Internet Explorer (IE6sp1 is a fav of mine)hope this helps
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-26-2002, 03:44 PM:
Thanks to everyone for your advice. Here is the update.I flashed the BIOS with an update but I didn't note any improvement. I looked for an updated video driver. I found something on Leadtek's US site (an .exe file) with a Sept 02 date which would not run ("not a valid Win32 file" Windows sez; running it in DOS just gives an error) but one of their overseas sites had one from April so I tried that and it does seem better now. I've noticed a bit of weirdness in the way things move when stretching windows and at times it seems to get confused and I get parts of one window in aother (primarily a Netscape issue) but the weird crashing seems to have gone away. Still the occasional BSOD but they tend to be less fatal. I did also add a micro fan to the videocard's main chip heatsink. Couldn't hurt I figured.
So it's better though not perfect. I still need to see about an updated MB chipset driver and maybe find out about that newer video driver that wasn't working. Maybe I should just get another video card altogether since indications are pointing to this as a problem area.
BTW, one problem that crops up occasionally is when printing to the Laserjet with lots of programs open and having printed a number of pages it sometimes says there is not enough memory to complete this task. Considering that I've got 512M and there is tons of room for the swap file it seems kind of odd. I'm guessing the Laserjet driver creates a memory leak.
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-26-2002, 05:30 PM:
System Resource Monitor will track memory usage for you. It's not in the default Windows install package so you might have to add it through Add/Remove programs. I can't remember if the command is 'resmon' or 'sysmon'. I think it's resmon.I suspect that it is the HP driver though. Sometimes some HP drivers will send to much data to the printer at once (for no reason) and overflow the printers memory. This also sometimes happens with complex graphics on a single page as the whole page has to be sent to the printer before it can be printed (since it is a laser printer).
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-26-2002, 06:08 PM:
Yes yes, the chipset driver. Didn`t I say that a long time ago? Well, nobody listens to me anyway. 
But I got used to it 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-26-2002, 06:24 PM:
I didn't forget. Just doing one at a time (not necessarily in the optimum order I realize).Hey, how 'bout those Märklins down at KDW.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-26-2002, 06:45 PM:
Try a different main board. There just seems to be too many things going goofy.
Posted by Kelsey Black (Member # 126) on 10-26-2002, 07:14 PM:
I second Scott Norwood's suggestion about trying another power supply. a lot of budget PC's have a really crappy power supply that more likely than not, can't even output it's rated wattage without shutting down, getting very unstable, or burning up. after all, you spend good money for the parts that are powered by it, why not spend good money on a good power supply that you can depend on? Kelsey Black
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-26-2002, 07:52 PM:
Maybe if there was another P/S very handy I would swap it just to see but I don't think this is the prime culprit. It's a 350W supply. It's giving me a steady 12.36V and 5.00V with both DVD and CD drives running. It has been on all day if that matters.
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-26-2002, 07:58 PM:
What is KDW?
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-26-2002, 08:05 PM:
Steve, if you are getting those voltages from your power supply, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Another thing to look at (if it has not been mentioned) is the CPU cooling. Some of the coolers used on them were under-rated.
If the computer normally runs fine for the first 10 minutes or so, (maybe 5) I would suspect the CPU chip is over-heating. Seen this many times....when it happens, the computer will do weird stuff for no apparent reason whatsoever. Some of its brains seem to fall along the wayside and the computer gets so damn confused it doesn't know what to do. The hotter the chip becomes, the worse the computer will act.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-26-2002, 09:06 PM:
Also you may want to check for memory issues as sometimes it is after devices are accessed that the problems start
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-27-2002, 10:49 AM:
Michael: Perhaps a more popular abreviation is KaDeWe*, the huge department store on the Kurfuerstendamm. I checked my email there once, via telnet (an interesting experience given the lag for keypresses to make the round trip).For everyone else: Pronounced Kah Day Vay...the way the letters KDW are spoken...it stands for Kaufhaus des Westens, literally "buy house"...meaning Store of the West.
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-28-2002, 05:16 AM:
It`s always been KaDeWe, the "Harrods" of Berlin, so I didn`t get the reference. Well, I haven`t been there in a long time, and I haven`t been to the toys department in a much longer time. I dimly remember they had big Märklin installations but I am not a mini railroad fan. I will go and check next time I am in the area.