It seems like highway robbery to buy them for $80 (that's what "Theatre cue marker 35mm" runs for in Christy's Editorial's catalog.)

At this point, I think I will mill some myself. Though it appears the cost of tooling is sort of annoying, as there's a specialty keyslot cutter required. That kind of makes me think I should make more than 1 or 2 if I'm going to buy the milling cutter. Would anyone here want a few?

--jhawk
 

Unless it's changed, SMPTE 301 says center of the cue should be .281" from the edge, and .148" up from the horizontal centerline, and a diameter of .094".

The frame I scribed w/ a Clint Phare in my pocket is .275" from the edge, .169" from the centerline, and a diameter of .080". That seems reasonable except for the height, but if anything the SMPTE height seems low. I don't have any frames with IP lab cues in my pocket, but I'll measure some next time I'm in the booth.

Any idea how consistent IP lab cues are? I seem to remember seeing them in a variety of different places, but I could be wrong on that. If so, obviously you can't please everyone.

BTW, are IP lab cues actually punched out of the IP, or are they adhesive dots, or Clint Phare -scribed, or what?

--jhawk

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Better Projection Pays!
 

It sounds like it would be cumbersome and annoying to use, though...but certainly possible.

--jhawk
 

The top piece has the holes to allow you to guide the scriber Thus it could be made for FLAT and CSCOPE and you just change the top plate with a couple of screws or a 1/4-trun fastener.

Then, for the bottom plate, you have the milled out area for the film and the registration pin(s).

While you are at it...you could always make 16mm and 70mm cuers too.

We once had a stock pile of the 16, 35 and 70mm cuers (new in the box) but have gone through many on various installations.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

I'm not sure what the concern is with cinemascope cues...one position seems to be sufficient (no?).

I'll admit I thought about a two-piece design for other reasons, like not having to buy a 1/8" width 1-1/2" diameter narrow-slot woodruff keyseat milling cutter...but I'm going to go with purity, at least for the moment.

Joe: SMPTE 301 doesn't specify cue marks for scope, they're all the same.

--jhawk
 

Hey, how about a staggered design? The flat cues as with the Phare units. But then, down about 2 perforations, is the set for scope, which are distinguished by being inset more than the flat. If there's enough room to do that and still leave room for the scriber, that is.

FWIW, the original Phare markers would align with the frame line along the top.

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Better Projection Pays!

Him, I think Tim is certainly right, if the goal is to have different marks for flat/scope. Also, another choice would be to have scribing holes on both the left and the right side of the die; so you rotate the die 180 degrees for scope. Both those systems are prone to abuse in that a naive user might scribe more cues than are necessary.

Tim said, "the original Phare markers would align with the frame line along the top". Perhaps I'm smoking something, but I seem to recall getting cues wrong the last time I tried that; regardless, I do find that sometimes it is better to scribe the cue dot 1 perf down, depending on what's where in the frame.

--jhawk

{*} -- There's an ETS label from the previous theater under ours, but of course its from July, so I'm not sure there's much point in bitching at them privately, much less publically...

On the frame line alignment. With the registration pin on the top left, and the holes on the right, the frame line went right across the top. At least in the ones I used in the 70s and 80s.

They may have well altered something in later units. As I remember, the craftsmanship wasn't as good on the newer ones. One problem in particular was that whoever drilled the holes went a bit too far and dished the bottom of the scribing area. You could never make a perfect circle with those markers, because the scribe tip would walk around in the shallow crater at the bottom (the place that was supposed to be perfectly flat). The result was a cue that danced around, and changed in thickness, on the screen. Yuck!

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Better Projection Pays!

The upper half of a 1.85:1 frame is 0.223 inches high (0.446/2). Move up 0.141 inches from the centerline for the center of the cue and you are at 0.082 inches below the top edge of the projectable image area. That is the center of the 0.094 inch diameter cue mark. So the top edge of the cue mark is 0.082-(0.094/2)=0.035 inches below the top edge of the projectable image area.
 

It'll give me an excuse to make 2 more 16mm for our booths; originally I wasn't going to bother since we pretty much never use them...

--jhawk
 

I don't know quite how "improved" I'm going to go for...I guess it depends on whether someone hits on an improvement that's sufficiently easy to construct and not too time-consuming.

But certainly I can make a bunch of 35mm and 16mm dies and scribers, yup.

--jhawk
 

I know we would be interested in 16 and 35mm cuers...and possibly some 70mm.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

quote:

---

I'll have to go measure out our 16mm die and see how deep the slot is and soforth.

---

John, FWIW, the 16mm Clint Phare marker I've seen (painted red, instead of black) are the same size as the 35mm version, except for the position of the registration pin. The cue marker holes look to be in the same position, too, or very close. If you marked a 16mm print in the 4 holes as it was, the cue flashed on the screen every other frame, 4 times. I always marked two, then moved the film up one frame and made the other two, so they would be on consecutive frames.

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Better Projection Pays!
 

I do have a question about the 16mm die though. It seems odd that the width of the slot does not bind the film like the 35mm version. Is there some intended purpose here? Such as marking cues on 35mm film that is going to be slit to 16mm? [That seems incredibly implausible.]

As for 70mm, I don't have one of those, and have no application. We'll see how it goes for 16mm and 35mm, and perhaps I might be willing to do some 70 if someone wants to give me specs...

--jhawk
 

American Standard Z22.55-1947 clause 4.2 states: "The center of these holes is to be halfway between the top and second sprocket holes 0.281 inch from the right-hand edge of the film with heads up and emulsion toward the observer."
 

BTW, the keyslot is less deep on the 16mm cue marker (unsurprisingly),
so I shouldn't have a problem.

--jhawk
 

If you are looking for enough takers to make your project worth while, I'd be willing to kick in a few $$. It's up to you to decide how many of them you need to make in order to defray the cost.
 

I need a 35mm base. I think that the scriber that I have would do nicely on 35. I dont need a huge cue...

If you'd like to order, please drop me an email to jhawk@mit.edu and let me know how many 16mm, 35mm, and 70mm dies you would like, and how many scribers you would like. It'll be first-come first-served (if you commented previous to this message in the thread, you can keep your place), and if I get too many responses I'll have to draw a line.

I don't know that I will be making any 70mm, but I'll certainly consider it.

--jhawk

I am most certainly interested.
 

At the moment I'm only planning to make fixed-position dies, since that's what I have a clear design for and know how to produce. Though I suppose on further reflection, making adjustable positions wouldn't be too terrible, though it seems like the alignment might be rough.

I think, initially, I'm going to make fixed position dies, and then I might experiment with adjustable ones if I'm still feeling motivated.

Some design thoughts: I guess you'd want to adjust both the horizontal and vertical positions, rather than just one...that complicates doing it a fashion that would be truly square. As I see it, there are 2 options:

1. The alignment holes are in a seperate piece in the top of the die, and that piece bolts down to some captive nuts in the base. Loosen both bolts, adjust the exact position of the die, and then lock it down. The problem with this is it's hard to guarantee that you're positioned squarely (i.e. that the mark will be in the same place in all 4 frames).

2. There are two pieces, stacked, on top of the die base. The top piece has slotted holes such that it can only move (say) in the x direction. The lower (middle) piece has slotted holes such that it can only move in the y direction. The top piece bolts to the middle piece, and the middle piece to the base.

Just to confirm, Brad, the application is so that you can go over dark cues that are too hard to see, yes? Have you tried scribing them freehand, without a die? I haven't tried that, but it seems worth investigating...

--jhawk

Perhaps you could design it so that it is on a track that could slide lengthwise on the film, to permit vertical positioning? Then there could be a few different holes to use that vary in horizontal position. I can get you some film with printed cues if that would be of any assistance.

OK, sure, you can have two-piece design with slots in the y direction (or a track if you want to go to way more effort...), and no freedom of movement in the x direction except for having more than one hole. It doesn't seem like you could accomodate more than 3 or 4 horizontal positions, unless you were willing to accept not replicating them across all 4 frames and having to re-register the film in the die 4 times.

I'm surprised that you think there are a small number of horizontal positions, though. Anyhow, you could measure them yourself with a caliper. Sure, if you want to mail them to me that would be fine, though my receipt of your film does not guarantee that I'll make the custom part .

--jhawk
 

--jhawk
 

I have a 16mm "Q" maker from the 1950's TV era. You insert the film where you want the Q to appear, close the lid, turn the knob, and there you go. Nice quality.

It definitely turned out that having the slot 3mm wider made registration annoying, so my version has two registration pins, one at the top and one at the bottom.

--jhawk

--jhawk

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: here Kodak Website
 

Deburring is certainly an issue. I think the photo makes it look more burred than it really is, but I did file and deburr edges, and test them against some film...

--jhawk