Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: New 70mm print of RYAN'S DAUGHTER

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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-04-2002, 01:49 PM:

There will be a screening at the Motion Picture Academy's Samuel Goldwyn Theater in Los Angeles November 15 of a new 70mm print of David Lean's Ryan's Daughter.
here

Despite the lack of any new films in 70mm, the format sure seems to be enjoying a "comeback" of sorts lately. Between the new prints of Lawrence Of Arabia, 2001: A Space Odyssey, and Play Time, as well as the American Cinematheque's recent screenings of Lord Jim, Patton, and Hello, Dolly!, the El Capitan's run of Sleeping Beauty, and now this new print of Ryan's Daughter, there has been plenty of opportunities to see some 70mm. The great thing is that these have all been genuine large-format productions (rather than blow-ups) and some of these new prints have been made directly off the original negatives resulting in very impressive image quality.

There is a new 70mm print of Baraka floating around right now, too. I've been told that a new print of The Sound Of Music has been considered, as well.

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 11-04-2002, 02:48 PM:

Also, Acording to the Krikorian Theatres website<krikoriantheatres.com> They'll be showing Lion King in 70mm in December. Note how they describe 70mm as "technologically advanced", put that one in your pipe video projector folks.

Danny

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-04-2002, 02:51 PM:

WRT Lion King in 70mm: is that a reference to the IMAX engagement, or will they actually be showing a 5-perf print in a 'normal' theatre?

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-04-2002, 02:59 PM:

quote:
WRT Lion King in 70mm: is that a reference to the IMAX engagement, or will they actually be showing a 5-perf print in a 'normal' theatre?

Five-perf? I'll believe it when I see it.

The plan is to release The Lion King as they did with Beauty And The Beast. That is, 8-perf and 15-perf "special venue" 70mm prints (arguably a different type of 70mm than conventional 5-perf 70mm). The image will be printed letterboxed at roughly 1.66:1.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 11-04-2002, 02:59 PM:

Krikorian has a Ballantyne 8/70 projector. The Lion King opens "in IMAX and other Giant Screen theatres" December 25.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-04-2002, 03:16 PM:

quote:
"in IMAX and other Giant Screen theatres"

IMAX = 15-perf

Giant Screen = 8-perf

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-04-2002, 04:01 PM:

Michael wrote"IMAX = 15-perf

Giant Screen = 8-perf"
Not allways Iwerks and World Odessey 15 perf are usually refered to as giant screen

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-04-2002, 04:07 PM:

BEAUTY AND THE BEAST had several non-IMAX runs using 15 perf IWERKS projectors and were advertised as GIANT SCREEN. Same print format, different projector system (aren't these projectors basically IMAX clones?) Most non-IMAX Giant Screen runs of BATB used 8-pef vertical projection though. Although with the new Regal contract, the 8-perf machines are going out of the Edwards So. California theatres with the IMAX projectors going back in.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-04-2002, 05:16 PM:

I don't remember if it was American Cinematographer or some other movie-tech magazine, but the world premiere engagement of "The Lion King" at Radio City Music Hall in New York did feature a 5-perf 70mm print. Audio was in Dolby Digital via an interlocked 35mm print with DD soundtracking.

The same method was used on four 70mm prints of "Pocahontas" for its world premiere in Central Park.

The new, upcoming re-release of "The Lion King" will feature some IMAX blow up prints.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-04-2002, 05:34 PM:

Due to Disney's penchant for perfection at special screenings, they used 8 70mm prints for the Central Park showing. Only 4 prints were shown on the four screens, but 4 other prints were running in sync on projectors with the dousers closed in case of a breakdown. I think (if memory serves) only 4 of these prints were sounded.

Here's a link to the Radio city Music Hall's experience with The Lion King:
here

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-04-2002, 05:36 PM:

Bobby wrote:

quote:
I don't remember if it was American Cinematographer or some other movie-tech magazine, but the world premiere engagement of "The Lion King" at Radio City Music Hall in New York did feature a 5-perf 70mm print. Audio was in Dolby Digital via an interlocked 35mm print with DD soundtracking.

My mention of believing there was/is a 5-perf 70mm print of The Lion King when I see it earlier in the thread was in reference to the upcoming re-release, not the original release.

"Some other movie-tech magazine?" Come on, Bobby...you know damn well which magazine it was that mentioned all of this.

Sure, the audio for the Radio City run was from interlocked Dolby Digital, but the prints were still striped and sounded for future (and backup) use.

quote:
The same method was used on four 70mm prints of "Pocahontas" for its world premiere in Central Park.

I'll need to double-check, but I don't think they used the same method for Pocahontas. The sound was from one of the striped prints, intentionally mis-synced to compensate for the huge venue. And there were more than four prints. The Special Edition laserdisc is one source that went into detail on this.

quote:
The new, upcoming re-release of "The Lion King" will feature some IMAX blow up prints.

Really? Isn't this what has been discussed during the past six or seven posts??? And technically, these new Large Format prints aren't blow-ups since the footage was derived from computer files.

Gordon wrote:

quote:
Not allways Iwerks and World Odessey 15 perf are usually refered to as giant screen

You're correct. There are exceptions. I overlooked this exception. My comment was made in response to Adam mentioning the advertising blurb "In IMAX and other Giant Screen Theaters" in which the Krikorian 8-perf presentation would fall under the "Giant Screen" category. The blurb, of course, allows studios to get around the fact that not all of the theaters running these movies will be "IMAX"-brand and more than one Special Venue format may be used. But you're right; "Giant Screen" is a generic term that can include both 8- and 15-perf 70mm formats.

I realize these forum threads often drift, but what's with this discussion becoming all about The Lion King and Special Venue? If I would've known that was what would end up being discussed, I wouldn't have posted the Ryan's Daughter info. I thought (maybe I guessed wrong) that some of you might be interested in discussing these classics resurfacing in 70mm.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-04-2002, 05:48 PM:

Here's some info from the Pocahontas Central Park run. here

this information was compiled by William Kalley and Michael Coate for the in 70mm and Widescreen Review websites and magazines.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-04-2002, 06:11 PM:

What kind of soundtrack on Ryan?

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-04-2002, 06:25 PM:

quote:
What kind of soundtrack on Ryan?

Not sure yet. I'll try to confirm.

Warner Bros. is handling it, and they did the recent 2001 prints in mag. The recent DTS-70mm prints have been from Fox and Columbia.

Steve,
Do you have a preference? Can you run both?

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-04-2002, 06:31 PM:

Michael Coate wrote:

quote:
If I would've known that was what would end up being discussed, I wouldn't have posted the Ryan's Daughter info. I thought (maybe I guessed wrong) that some of you might be interested in discussing these classics resurfacing in 70mm.

I think maybe as far as most people are concerned, these repurposed IMAX films are as close to 70mm as many parts of the country will see again. As for me, I am really happy to have seen four of the 70mm film classics revived in Los Angeles (and such a change from having to view only blow-ups). Now if a way can be found to have more than a one night showing of Ryan's Daughter (undeniably slow on the small screen) or Lord Jim or Patton, then I'll be happy. It was a great day for me last month to catch LOA, 2001: a Space Odyssey and Hello Dolly. It's just the one day showings make it a bit difficult to see all three in one day.

Baraka is truly a beautiful film that I got to see in 70mm at the Showcase in Hollywood during it's intial run. I hope anyone who cares about cinematography gets the chance to catch it on this re-release.

Interestingly, some of these films (Patton, Hello Dolly) were made of the ON's and not from IN's or seperation masters. I think the inherent quality of the prints should lay to rest the myth that negatives of old films aren't capable of achieving just as good, or even better results than when they were new. I see no way Hello Dolly could have looked better in 1969 (except for the duped credit sequences) and may not have even looked as good as today.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-05-2002, 12:27 AM:

Personally? No, my screening room is just 35mm and I sold my hobby JJ long ago. I'm thinking of the next Ebertfest and/or the local art house. Both can handle either including DTS-SV.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-05-2002, 05:03 AM:

quote:
...and some of these new prints have been made directly off the original negatives resulting in very impressive image quality.

That will certainly give you a beautiful print, but using the camera negative to directly strike a release print is endangering the long-term preservation of a film. No film preservation professional would allow that to happen, certainly not in the case of a big-budget studio feature which remains a valuable commercial asset decades after its production, unless [s]he was ordered to from above.

Just imagine what would happen if your camera negative jammed in the printer and mangled a few feet, or a negative splice came apart, or a piece of grit became lodged in the printer and gouged an emulsion scratch! OK, you've got to take that risk in order to duplicate a film at all, but the camera neg - interpos - dupe neg - print sequence of generations is intended to reduce that risk by ensuring that the camera negative receives as few passes through a printer as possible.

If it is indeed true that very well known wide format productions are being printed straight from the original negative, this is surely very short-term thinking. OK, going through two more generations might add $10-20k to the cost, but isn't it worth that to insure against damage to a production which cost tens of millions of dollars?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-05-2002, 08:41 AM:

I certainly hope that if a studio is investing in a few new 70mm direct prints, they also are taking the opportunity to make a new 65mm protection master.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-05-2002, 07:06 PM:

70mm EK prints: The secret weapon against the digital hordes.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 11-05-2002, 10:19 PM:

When the now defunct Kuhio Theatre in Honolulu ran David Lean's "RYAN"S DAUGHTER" during it's first run engagement, the newspaer advertisment said nothing about the film was going to be shown in 70mm. In fact the way it was promoted, I had already resigned myself to watch the movie in this theatre in 35mm. Once the overture started, I knew I was in for a great treat because the sound was awesome and I knew I was not listening to four track mag on a 35mm print. As soon as the picture flashed on the screen after the overture, I was in 70mm heaven! The Kuhio was one of Honolulu's road show theatres but "RYAN'S DAUGHTER" was playing at regular prices in 70mm. "RYAN'S DAUGHTERS was one of the last films that was shot on 65mm film and shown in 70mm. There were a few other 70mm films after that but they were 35mm blow up with the exception of "FAR & AWAY", "HAMLET" and "BARAKA".

-Claude

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-05-2002, 10:26 PM:

quote:
There were a few other 70mm films after that but they were 35mm blow up with the exception of "FAR & AWAY", "HAMLET" and "BARAKA".

That's the understatement of the last century. There were far more than just a few 70mm films that were blow-ups from 35mm that followed Ryan's Daughter. MANY more.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-05-2002, 10:44 PM:

quote:
That's the understatement of the last century. There were far more than just a few 70mm films that were blow-ups from 35mm that followed Ryan's Daughter. MANY more.

That's for sure! Try: hundreds more....

Let's see...alphabetically....
Absolute Beginners
The Abyss
Adventures In Babysitting
Air America
Alien
Aliens
Alien 3
Altered States
Amadeus
Apocalypse Now
Back To The Future
....

Just kidding! I'm not going to list them all.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-05-2002, 10:57 PM:

As for non-blowups, let us not forget TRON (Super Panavision) and Black Cauldron (Super Technirama). OK, that's not 65mm but it is still large format. And the brain recorder sequences of Brainstorm (Super Panavision).

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-05-2002, 11:26 PM:

Would it be acceptable to refer to Technirama transfers to 70mm as "blow-outs"?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-06-2002, 03:27 AM:

...or even 'blow-jobs' (the ideal process in which to film Clinton - The Movie)?

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 11-06-2002, 04:59 AM:

65mm and VistaVision are often used for photographing special effects in order to maintain a good quality with composited shots. I've read that "Who framed Roger Rabbit?" had so many composited shots that, when analyzing the storyboard, they decided to entirely photograph it in VistaVision to make things easier.

Is it true that "Who framed Roger Rabbit?" was entirely made in VistaVision ?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-06-2002, 09:41 AM:

No.

Edit:
I pulled my copy of Cinefex #35 to look more into this. A majority was done in VV but not all. Some of it was even in Super 35/1.85.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-06-2002, 10:30 AM:

AFAIK, "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" used 8-perf 35mm for many of the effects shots:
here
here
here
here
here

In general, a larger format (VistaVision or 65mm) might often have been used for optical effects work so the graininess and sharpness of the EFX scenes were a better match to the "live action" photographed on 4-perf 35mm.