Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 16mm in theatres ?!?! huh?!!!!!!

This is topic 16mm in theatres ?!?! huh?!!!!!! in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 01-14-2003, 02:34 PM:

Just thought i'd point this out to everyone. Over on the 8mm collector forums, someone is claiming that 16mm is currently being used in lots of multiplexes, and some prints even use reverse scan soundtracks. This all sounds very bizzare. Anyone ever heard such a thing?

Danny

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-14-2003, 02:44 PM:

For the most part, the only theatres in the US which have 16mm capability are repertory houses, theatres on college campuses, or venues which regularly run film festivals. I have a very hard time believing that more than a handful of multiplexes even have 16mm capability, much less use it on a regular basis. Perhaps that is a reference to AMC's now-defunct "project HQ" which experimented with 16mm in smaller multiplexes in the late '80s/early '90s. Apparently the idea was that prints could be shipped on 6000' reels and could be run by employees with almost zero training. (Never mind that many of the 35mm operators in AMC theatres have received almost zero training.) Apparently the concept died when larger screens became popular. Until the mid-80s, airlines used 16mm prints as well; now, they seem to mostly use Hi-8 video tape.

There is a 16mm DTS sound system, which uses timecode recorded on the optical track (hence, no optical backup) and a standard DTS player. I've seen one of the prints, but never a complete system.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 01-14-2003, 03:30 PM:

I remember AMC boasting about how much money they could save on print shipping costs. Thank goodness it never flew.

I do remember from the early 70's that Trans-Lux Theatyres had some 16mm twins popping up (maybe also Jerry Lewis Cinemas). I think the prints were actually coming from the division that serviced airplanes with prints. I don't know (or remember) how widespread these theatres were, or if they converted to 35mm at some point (or just plain closed).

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 01-14-2003, 04:15 PM:

AMC Theatres' president (at the time) Stanley Durwood, had been experimenting and running 16mm systems in selected AMC theaters under the name of "Project HQ". It was first reported in weekly Variety (Aug. 22, 1984 and July 29, 1987) and an in-depth story was done in Boxoffice magazine (March 1988). It used modified Eastman model 25 projectors with stereo soundhead, xenon lamphouse, automation, and 6000 foot reel arms. When Stan Durwood died a couple of years ago, so did Project HQ and all the projectors were removed and they ended up at International Cinema Equipment in Miami, Florida.

There is an Elmo model LX-2200 that has reverse scan stereo soundhead and DTS digital sound has started appearing on some 16mm prints. DTS does have a 16mm DTS system now.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 01-14-2003, 04:16 PM:

Most of the Laemmle theatres in Los Angeles, can run 16mm in one or
more auditoriums. One auditorium at Loew's Beverly Center was 16mm
equipped. They did a test over at one of the AMC Burbank Theatres,
back in the 80's.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-14-2003, 04:55 PM:

The Elmo LX-2200 is not reverse-scan...it is normal forward scan with a slit lens. It does have a stereo cell though.

While I do know of theatres that have 16mm capability (multiplex) none run them regularly and they are art type houses.

That said, I've been putting a bunch of 16mm systems on line as of late...however most have come along with a 35mm system. The only 16mm only installations I've done was at a university that teaches film.

Steve

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-14-2003, 04:59 PM:

The United States Military was screwing around with that in the '70's, and converted to 16mm. The idea was to circuit sea prints and save a couple of bucks. All the 35mm machines were put in salvage, and lot of that used crap you buy today was just that - military surplus. After the military lost their shirts on that lame-brain idea, The attendance must have dropped to almost "0" and all the 16mm machines went into salvage and replaced with state-of-the art 35mm equipment.

What lame-brain would expect a beautiful picture on a screen 105 feet away with a masked screen size of about 16 feet high and about 37 feet wide is beyond me. But they tried it, and lost - big time. The pictures were so poor you would have a major headache within the first 30 minutes.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 01-14-2003, 05:43 PM:

A listing of Laemmle Theatre capabilities:

http://www.laemmle.com/rentalfac.html

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-14-2003, 06:12 PM:

16mm is almost extinct even in the documentary field. There is a 16/35mm Kinoton FP38E at the Sony Center in Berlin for the Film Festival, but when I worked there, we used it only once or twice. Most documentary film makers now shoot on digital video.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 01-14-2003, 07:16 PM:

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the long gone UA Marina City cinemas in Chicago were built as 16mm houses but I've never gotten any confirmation about that.

16mm can be projected quite large with an appropriate projector, lamp and a good lens and look good but obviously it's no match for 35 or 70mm.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-14-2003, 07:27 PM:

I'll put good 16mm up against the typical 35mm release print anyday. The quality achievable is quite astounding. You figure the height of a 16mm image on the film versus the height of a Super-35 image isn't too much off (about 1/10 of an inch).

A lot of what kills the 16mm image is the poor lenses people use combined with poor light. Without DTS, the 16mm sound is kinda wanting though it too can be passible.

If you want to make any 16mm projector put out about 10X better picture, try an ISCO Vario-Kiptaron 20-60mm not the cheap one It will beat the socks off of some of the finest 35mm format lenses.

Steve

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-14-2003, 08:23 PM:

quote:
some 16mm twins popping up (maybe also Jerry Lewis Cinemas)

Paul, FWIW, all the Jerry Lewis theatres I've ever serviced were 35mm.
[Smile]

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 01-14-2003, 09:32 PM:

With master and slave Ballantyne Pro 35's & VIP's?

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 01-14-2003, 10:19 PM:

OUCH! [evil]

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 01-15-2003, 12:11 AM:

quote:
Paul, FWIW, all the Jerry Lewis theatres I've ever serviced were 35mm.

Back in the early 70's?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-15-2003, 02:21 AM:

Part of the issue is the relative cost of prints. Economies of scale dictate that 16mm is no cheaper than 35mm for the software: in fact, the lab we use most of the time charges more per foot for 16mm release prints than for 35, and I'm told that the reason for this is the cost of raw stock and of maintaining printers and processors. When the multiplexes came in during the 1980s, the demand for 35mm release prints skyrocketed and so the labs equipped themselves for very high throughput to cope with the demand. The result has been that 35mm release printing is now probably cheaper than it's ever been in the history of the industry. Even arthouse films which are still being originated on 16 (or super 16) are now routinely being blown up to 35 for theatrical release. But while demand for 35mm prints was rising, demand for 16mm has steadily decreased as the previously big markets for 16mm - schools, promos, industrial films, training films and so on - all went over to video. So the upshot now is there there is no economic point in the big chains using 16mm, even on screens that are small enough to make it an obvious technical choice. The only places that are interested in 16 are art and rep houses that regularly show 'legacy prints' of older titles.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-15-2003, 03:19 AM:

quote:
Back in the early 70's?

Well, late 70s - early 80s, former Jerry Lewis's. I serviced several over the years, throughout the east and midwest. Without fail, all of them had XeTron 2000 lamphouses, IREM rectifiers, and Centurys. I think the circuit might have started out with 16mm, and then switched to 35mm when they had to begin running regular product.