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The pyrotechnics stuff was placed to close to the paneling. What the hell were they thinking??

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Well, Ray...when I saw a picture of one of the blowtorches in the background, I wondered the same thing. Those who set up the pyros had to definately had their heads inserted in the lower portion of their body. I wonder what the hell they were smoking when they were rigging the pyros.

Here is a picture that was posted on AOL News. Notice what I have circled in red. How and why on God's Green Earth could someone in a stable mind even think of placing something like that so close to the ceiling? You can plainly see it is setting the ceiling on fire.





If the club managers were "on the ball" and inspected the setup, I am sure they would have noticed it. Why wasn't it immediately questioned?

Maybe what should happen is that any concert using pyros should have a safety inspection by the city fire departments and a permit issued even before the concert begins.

I see this tragic accident as being 100% preventable if someone would have been doing their job.
 

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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 02-21-2003, 11:23 PM:
 
I used to be a licensed pyrotechnician 20 years ago doing stage shows as a sideline. Here in Washington state you must pass a state test for pyrotechnician. You must then obtain a special license from the fire chief of the city in which the pyrotechnics will be used. The license spells out EXACTLY how many and what types of pyrotechnics will be used on stage. The effects must be "line of sight" of the pyrotechnician and the technician must have at all times a large capacity fire extinguisher "at his side". If a stage production does not have the required pyrotechnic license, then the fire dept has the authority to immediately shut down the show.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-21-2003, 11:51 PM:
 
Ken, that's the way it should be in ALL states. I think most everyone would agree on something like this.

If they don't, they sure as hell would when they lose one of their kids or a loved one in a fire that was as senseless as this one was.
 

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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 02-22-2003, 01:09 AM:
 
The things I mentioned are the LAW here in Washington state. The local city fire departments have the authority to be even stricter for pyrotechnics.
 

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Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 02-22-2003, 09:17 AM:
 
Paul, from my understanding of the news broadcasts there are such laws in place in Rhode Island and in the town of West Warwick. The issue at hand seems to be that they did not even TRY to obtain a permit (probably knowing they would be turned down). I know if I planned a show like that with those effects some sort of license would be required, and I'm not even in that business. Common sense. I think the band probably knew they wouldn't get approved for a permit (speculation yes, but just a feeling) and went on with their foolish display to put on a "great" concert.

Other issues at hand is the occupancy of the club. Many think (by looking at the news footage) that the 300 person capacity was greatly exceeded, which would be a problem for the owners. I think the fire should rest completely on the band, by the testimonials of other clubs Great White has played at lately (Bangor, ME and New Jersey) it seems this was statis quo for them, with the exception of the tragedy. If the occupancy allowance was ignored, then the club shrares in at least some of the blame.
 

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Posted by Arthur Allen (Member # 969) on 02-22-2003, 10:37 AM:
 
Looked like a washed up 80's band trying to cram their arena show into a nightclub.

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"You didn't know that rock n' roll burned
so you bought a candle and you loved and you learned"
--Great White, "Once Bitten"
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-22-2003, 10:42 AM:
 
Don't worry; no matter what happens Jack Russell will still have that damned dog named after him.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-22-2003, 12:21 PM:
 
Barry, your understanding is correct.

According to the news I read today, the building did not have a city permit to use pyros, and State law requires a special license for detonating pyrotechnics. The West Warwick Town Council would also have to sign off on any local establishment's application for the license.

The band's attorney said the musicians had "verbal permission" to set off the pyros, and the band's manager had made sure the use of pyros was approved.

A Councilor said that using use pyrotechnics in a building like that, bad judgment would be an understatement. He also said it's an old wooden building with low ceilings.

There is also a possibility the building's capacity of 300 was exceeded. The number of the victims and survivers (200 injured with an additional 96 that lost their lives) seem to point to that possibility.

According to the news, a criminal probe into the nightclub fire has begun.

Bobby, your assessment will probably come to pass.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-22-2003, 12:54 PM:
 
This is very sad and--obviously--was a completely preventable situation. The videotape of the fire is extremely scary, as most of us have never experienced a serious building fire and would not have expected the flames to spread so quickly.

It sounds like it would be very difficult to find fault with the venue, unless it was over capacity (possible) or had agreed to allow the use of pyro in the show (unlikely). Supposedly, they had working EXIT signs, fire extinguishers, and had passed a recent fire inspection. If anything, the fire codes may have been deficient, as they didn't require sprinklers in that building. Also, does anyone know why we need fire curtains, minimum aisle widths, and all sorts of other important safety devices in theatres, but this type of venue doesn't?

Whoever decided to set off the pyro devices in that venue (especially without the proper permits/licenses and apparently without permission from the venue) must have the worst judgment in the world and absolutely deserves to be "sued into oblivion" and, hopefully, sent to prison, too.

Hopefully this will help to effect positive changes in safety requirements for public buildings.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-22-2003, 01:02 PM:
 
I got caught in a middle of an oil fire once aboard ship. How fast things "go up" will supprise you. Somehow, I managed to escape. I was lucky.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-22-2003, 02:36 PM:
 
This appears to be what happened in the Morro Castle fire of September 1934. The incident has been largely forgotten about now, presumably because the ship didn't sink. There was also speculation that large quantities of alcohol on board (this was during prohibition, when the liner was used to run 'booze cruises' to Cuba) contributed to the ferocity of the fire.
 

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Posted by Michael Gonzalez (Member # 593) on 02-22-2003, 07:25 PM:
 
You know that tragedies like this tend to happen in threes. I'd be a little leery going to a club sometime in the near future. Just be sure that you always know where the emergency exits are.
 

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Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 02-22-2003, 07:44 PM:
 
Michael,
Here is a far less tragic, potential third.
Last Monday, a club in Minneapolis went ablaze when a band set off "pytotechnics" during their set opening for Link Wray. Unlike, the incident in Rhode Island, no one was hurt here, The incident is otherwise strikingly similar. Here is a story in the local paper.
If you look to the right of the linked page, there are links to the original stories from Monday and Tuesday.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-22-2003, 07:48 PM:
 
The local newspaper did a story on this today as it relates to venues in Eugene. The fire marshall was quoted as saying something like "We can prohibit plate warmers at the County Fair, but we can't prohibit pyrotechnics in nightclubs". Clubs and other live venues are required to have permits though. He also said all nightclubs, bars with live stage music, etc. can expect a visit from the fire marshall in the very near future.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-22-2003, 07:56 PM:
 
Re how safe was the venue: How safe can it be if their sound absorbing material on the walls was so flammable? If not the pyro it could have been easily touched off by a cigarette. It doesn't sound very safe to me. Is the material used on the walls of recording studios this dangerous?
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 02-26-2003, 06:11 AM:
 
Paul's picture is not of the pyro, but of the walls massively aflame like torches. The pyros were just sparklers. If the video rolls on TV again, you can see the sparklers, then the wall blazing like a torch (Paul's photo), then the ceiling aflame. In seconds!

I agree with Steve Kraus that the wall & ceiling materials probably weren't rated for that application. The club will be liable.

The club did not have a pyrotechnics license, & had been told that it would have been useless to apply because of its structure. Other bands that played the club are now coming forth & saying that they employed pyrotechnics at the club & the operators did not object.

The club was easily a deathtrap to begin with. Easily there were too many in there. I saw a plan of the club with the "3 exits" & stage marked; the main entrance was at an L from the stage. That's where everybody tried to exit & died. The "other two" exits were on the wall opposite the stage (like the back of the house), BEHIND THE BAR. That had BETTER be a code violation in Whoopsocket, Rhode Island. Socially, everybody is programmed not to go behind a counter where there's a cash register.

Apparently most of the band & some others got out an exit backstage.

Regardless of the band's actions, the owners/operators of the bar had complete disregard for patron safety.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-26-2003, 09:01 AM:
 
Some of the best accoustic absorbers are highly flamable
Sonex sheets which is an excellent device goes up like a torch
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-26-2003, 10:59 AM:
 
Can someone explain the logic behind "grandfathering" older buildings so sprinklers aren't required? It seems like common sense that a place like a nightclub should have sprinklers. If the owners can't afford to put them in, they shouldn't be allowed to operate, period.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-26-2003, 11:35 AM:
 
David, I have to somewhat agree with you. Unfortunately, that'll never happen. Some of the sprinkler systems are so high-tech it would probably cost more to install them than what the building is actually worth. There are two theatres I know of (that I have worked at) where the room used for the sprinkler system's control looks like a pump room transfer station. Why they have to be so complicated - I don't know. But they are. Initial pressurization of those systems is done in a start-up procedure, and if the procedure is violated, damage to the system could be severe.

I pressurized one some time ago, man!!!! I received a "Butt Chewing" session I'll never forget! Luckly, I followed the start-up procedures, so all was cool there. But the initial problem was that "I was not qualified or authorized to to pressurize that system."

Basically, a person working in the auditorium busted a sprinkler head, and water was shooting all over the place. So, I shut down the entire system, replaced the busted head, and re-pressurized the system according to equipment operating procedures.

Would I do it again? Certainly, if I thought any people were in danger of a fire. I would rather have those people wet as a duck than fried like a steak. Other than that, I would leave it alone.

William, by looking at that picture again, I still don't know what it was. However, given the size and intensity of the flames, I seriously doubt that a single large capacity hand held fire extinguisher could have put it out. It looks like it got too big of a foothold.
 

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Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 02-26-2003, 12:45 PM:
 
Someone on a heavy metal board I visit, is saying that "gerbs" (I'm guessing the stuff that shoots out the flames) burn cold so that no serious damage can happen. They said this is the stuff the pro wrestlers use during their intros. Has anyone heard of anything like this?
 

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Posted by Michael Hunt (Member # 772) on 02-26-2003, 12:53 PM:
 
I've got a manufacturers safety sheet in front of me that details safety zones for various pyros, gerbs have a vertical safety zone of 6m! and will typically burn to a height of 3-4m.
info found at

http://www.skyhighfx.com/safety_information.htm
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-26-2003, 12:56 PM:
 
The term "gerbs" is a new one on me, so naturally I Googled it, came up with this link: Gerbs

The MSDS for each of their products describes that the devices emit hot sparks and due consideration for safety of personnel & scenery is required during setup.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-26-2003, 02:17 PM:
 
How the hell can any fire be cold? If it has an orange flame, to me that is hotter than hell, and will still set shit on fire.

If anyone thinks there is such a thing as cold fire with an orange flame, stick your hand in it for about 1 munute. All that will be left is the bone - if you are lucky.

[ 02-26-2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-26-2003, 02:45 PM:
 
when Kiss were rehearsing for their reunion tour back in 1996, they were using an aircraft hanger to set their full stage up in. This stage featured every type of pyro you could think of. In the light trusses they had those gerbs along with flame pots and other stuff. Anyway they were testing the pyro and in the process set part of the insulation on fire in the roof of the hanger. The airport fire department was on hand to put out the blaze. This stuff is dangerous and should have never been used inside a small club. Arenas fine small clubs NO!. What do they need with it anyway. In a club people come to here the music they are not looking for big theatrics that you would have in large arenas.
 

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Posted by Michael Hunt (Member # 772) on 02-27-2003, 05:11 AM:
 
I'm using some Gerbs in a production today, and guess what the manufacturers data sheet says about them...

These pyrotechnics have 'hot fallout', in other words they burn hot, and the residue (sparks, embers whatever) is hot.

It also says that anything within a 1.5m radius of them should be fireproof.
 

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Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 02-28-2003, 09:02 AM:
 
The guitarist from Great White has been found!
The didn't recognize him at first because he had changed clothes.
When they found him he was wearing charcoal pants and a blazer.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-28-2003, 09:08 AM:
 


Sorry, I'm not laughing.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-28-2003, 05:17 PM:
 
I think I have to agree with John on this one, it's not a laughing matter.

Just about everything seems to have been wrong in this case, a large number of people, in a building containing flamable material, and inapropriate use of pyrotechnics, leading to a very high death toll.

From time to time there is a disaster which leads to major changes in safety thinking and regulation, the King's cross underground station fire in London, for example, or, on a larger scale, the sinking of the RMS Titanic.

I know nothing about the licencing of places of public entertainment in the USA, but I would not be at all surprised if this event leads to much stricter regulations, instection an enforcement in the future.
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 03-04-2003, 03:20 AM:
 
The club had hung highly flammable polyurethane packing material on the walls for sound absorption.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030304/ap_on_re_us/nightclub_fire_345

When I think of all the little, often literally inconsequential things fire inspectors have held up the works for, this becomes even more angering. So now liability is wrapping around the band, the club, & the township.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 03-04-2003, 12:09 PM:
 
I'm surprised we haven't had to pull the "Head Of State" trailers yet, since Chris Rock says "The roof is on fire" at a party and causes a frantic panic...

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-04-2003, 03:27 PM:
 
Kiss will be performing in Vegas soon, Can't remember the date now. They will not be using the company they use to do their pyro. For two reasons, first to respect what happened in the fire and because the facility is just to small that they are playing at. I can't remember the location they said they would be playing at.
 

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-20-2003, 06:46 PM:
 
Feds Fine Rhode Island Club Owners and Band. They have fined the owners $85,200 for one "Willful" violation and six serious ones. And Jack Russell Touring Inc., the corporate entity representing rock band Great White, faces a $7000 fine for failing to protect employees from fire hazards, OSHA said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=7&u=/ap/20030820/ap_on_re_us/nightclub_fire_osha_5
 

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Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 08-20-2003, 08:23 PM:
 

quote:

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I'm surprised we haven't had to pull the "Head Of State" trailers yet, since Chris Rock says "The roof is on fire" at a party and causes a frantic panic...

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