Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Place names in the UK

This is topic Place names in the UK in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 03-15-2003, 01:29 PM:

What the heck do these mean?

"Margate, Kent, UK" and "Kingston-on-Thames, Surrey, UK"

Are Margate and Kingston-on-Thames the city names or are they neighborhoods of Kent and Surrey? Are Kent and Surrey counties or cities?

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-15-2003, 01:51 PM:

I believe Kent and Surrey are provinces.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-15-2003, 02:05 PM:

I think they are counties not provinces

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-15-2003, 02:12 PM:

They could be... I know for sure they are located side by side in South-East England. Kent is surrounded by water on the North and East.

edit: Resorted to reading... they are counties.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 03-15-2003, 03:11 PM:

So, then, the proper place to list cinemas in these places on Cinematour (which goes by city and country for most places outside North America) would be "Margate, UK" and "Kingston-on-Thames, UK"?

I'm not able to break the UK into counties in the database at this time. This may change, though, as the German listings are growing. I've had several requests to be able to list by county/province, which will help on certain research projects. Maybe I'll have time this summer to program that. (riiiight!)

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 03-15-2003, 03:46 PM:

Margate and Kingston-on-Thames are towns.

Kent and Surrey are counties.

The UK is er... um... well I'm not quite sure what it is actually, and I live here.

The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. (It hasn't had a king for fifty one years) Great Britain contains England, Scotland and Wales, which are countries. Northern Ireland consists of six counties, the other twenty six Irish counties form the Republic of Ireland, or Eire, which is not part of Britain.

Then there are various small islands. The Isle of Wight is part of England, I think it's actually a county, but the Isle of Man is not part of Britain, but has some sort of links with it. Goodness knows what the status of the Channel Islands, between England and France is.

I am English; my nationality is British my passport says both 'European Union' and 'United Kingdom'

We like to make things complicated here. Make sure those foreigners can't understand it. [Wink]

The only problem is, we can't understand it either.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 03-15-2003, 04:11 PM:

Thanks, guys! Stephen, please inform Her Majesty that her plot to confuse the world was successful. [Smile]

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-15-2003, 05:33 PM:

Germany is not organised in counties but federal states. For instance Berlin is in the state of Berlin-Brandenburg. Hamburg and Bremen are city states. Berlin used to be too, but it has been united with the surrounding state of Brandenburg.
Frankfurt is in the state of Hessen (where the headless horseman in Sleepy Hollow came from), and so on.

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 03-15-2003, 06:12 PM:

Stephen,
What is the status of the successionist movement in Scotland to break away from the United Kingdom? It was reported here in the United States last week that Sean Connery had a secret bank account of 2 million dollars and funneled the interest to the Scottish Nationalists.

Canadians,
What is the status of the Qubecois and there successionist movement?

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 03-15-2003, 06:13 PM:

So if I was from Frankfurt, would I be a Frankfurter?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-15-2003, 06:19 PM:

Yes. -er denotes a person or a thing from a place. Like Frankfurter or Wiener (Wien=Vienna) Wuerstchen (sausage), or a Hamburger beefsteak.
A Berliner can be both a person from Berlin (as in Berliner Philharmoniker), or a sweet marmelade filled bun. Yet Kennedy`s famous speech in Berlin "Ich bin ein Berliner" was never mistaken as meaning that he saw himself as a bun, contrary to popular myth.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-15-2003, 09:57 PM:

Quebec is still trying to design an outboard motor large enough to float the province out into the ocean.

Since the next prime minister (which quite possibly could be former federal finance minister Paul Martin) will in all likelihood play to their 'english roots' the Bloc Quebecois will probably be more vocal about separatism.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-16-2003, 10:50 AM:

Stephen: I'm pretty sure that the Isle of Wight is formally part of Hampshire, but I could be wrong.

As for Scotland, there is a political party called the Scottish National Party which campaigns for Scotland to become a totally independent state. Connery is one of its principle backers; here is a link to its website. Since (I think) 1999 Scotland has had its own parliament, which has extensive legislative and limited tax-raising powers, but does not have jurisdiction over defence and foreign policy. Wales has a devolved assembly, which does not have tax-raising powers and only a very limited decision-making capacity. There was also devolved government in Northern Ireland until late last year, when the then NI minister John Reed suspended it as a result of it becoming clear at Sinn Fein/IRA were not making any meaningful commitment to the peace process and disarmament (specifically, after the IRA/Colombia business emerged).

I think it would be fair to say that a substantial minority of Scots support independence, but not a majority. As it is, Scotland gets a very (some would say unfairly) good deal out of the UK. It is represented twice - in the UK parliament at Westminster and in their own legislature. Scottish politicians are involved in decisions that only affect England and/or Wales, but not vice-versa. Furthermore, Scottish (and Northern Irish)public services are heavily subsidised by English and Welsh taxes. I think most Scots realise this and would not welcome the higher taxation and lower standard of living that would probably result from total independence.

As for counties (e.g. Surrey, Kent), their significance in England is mainly administrative. A layer of local government is run by county councils, who play a key role in rural areas. Large cities generally have their own city councils: for example I live in the county of North Yorkshire, but I can't vote in their county council elections because, living in a city, this comes under the City of York Council.

[ 03-16-2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Leo Enticknap ]

Posted by Mike Rendall (Member # 1499) on 03-17-2003, 03:08 AM:

The Isle of Wight is counted as an independant county for council services (i.e. hospitals, schools etc) but as part of hampshire for all others.

They get the same News as us though.

Posted by David Rigby (Member # 1301) on 03-17-2003, 05:43 AM:

As far as I can see this whole city problem actually arises because of the US misuse of the definition of 'city'. Originally to be a city a town had to be over a certain size and have a cathedral I think, though the cathedral bit doesn't apply these days.

It always seemed very odd to me that even teeny places in the US refer to themselves as 'cities' [Confused]

. Maybe you lot should clear the confusion up [Big Grin]

David

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 03-17-2003, 09:03 AM:

Michael,

I assume the German people did not take Kennedy to be a delusional fellow who identified as a jelly donut, but didn't he in fact pronounce "Berliner" as if that were the case?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-17-2003, 11:34 AM:

Thanks for clearing up the Isle of Wight issue. About the only other thing I could tell you about it is that brilliant Churchill quote: 'If pisswilly little buggers like him [Ramsay MacDonald] had been responsible for building the empire, we might just have colonised the Isle of Wight by now!'

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 03-17-2003, 12:08 PM:

There are plenty of towns and villages here in the US. When I lived in Oklahoma, I was in the Town of Fort Gibson. We had a board of trustees instead of aldermen.

Places in the US don't just go about naming themselves willy-nilly. However, most Americans are lazy enough to just call everything a city, particularly if you're from a large metropolitan area. There's a set of legal requirements and a procedure in every state to become a "city".

Here's a brief description of the process of incorporating a city in Missouri, from a class assignment at the UM-C School of Law:

quote:

Incorporation in Missouri

Any unincorporated area may incorporate as a city, town, or village in the following manner. A number of voters = 15% of those voting from the area in question in the last gubernatorial election must present a petition to the county governing body seeking incorporation and describing the area to be incorporated by metes and bounds and via plat. The petition must state the approximate population of the area in question and the assessed valuation of the property within the area. The petition must also "state facts showing that the proposed city shall have the ability to furnish normal municipal services within a reasonable time after its incorporation is to become effective," and ask for the question to be submitted to the voters.

If the county governing body is satisfied that the petition contains sufficient signatures, it shall submit the question to the voters of the area proposed to be incorporated. RSMo. § 72.080(1). If a majority of voters within the area approve, the county governing body shall declare the area incorporated. RSMo. § 72.080(2). If the county in question is a charter county, and there are already 50 or more incorporated areas within the county, incorporation requires compliance with a boundary commission process. RSMo. § 72.080(3).

Prior to the election, however, if the owners of the majority of the land classified commercial or agricultural within the proposed area object, they may sue in Circuit Court for a declaratory judgment. Their petition must "state facts showing that such consolidation including the real property owned by the petitioners is not reasonable and is not necessary to the proper development of the city or town." If the court agrees, it can enter an order requiring those seeking incorporation to resubmit their petition excluding the land of those objecting to the incorporation. RSMo. § 72.080(4).

Other than via the boundary commission in charter counties, no town or village may incorporate within two miles of an incorporated city/town/village within the same county, unless the requisite 15% of the voters first petition the incorporated city/town/village to annex them. If this annexation request is denied or not acted upon within one year, then the petition may proceed and incorporation is possible under the procedures specified in RSMo. § 72.080. RSMo. § 72.130.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 03-17-2003, 12:12 PM:

quote:
even teeny places in the US refer to themselves as 'cities'

What Adam said. Legalities aside, I think most people here call larger places here "cities", and rural burgs "towns".

But, I'm glad to have the mystery of UK place names cleared up. I'd wondered about that for years. Thanks.

Are there actually many towns and cities with the same names, which makes stating the county name necessary to differentiate them, or is it just common practice?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-17-2003, 12:58 PM:

Geographical Definitions in the United States:

http://www.sph.umich.edu/geomed/htmls/glossary/census.html

http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/glossary/glossary_a.html

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 03-17-2003, 01:21 PM:

This is a little off subject, but I read recently that in terms of settlement patterns, English colonists from northern England settled New England, those from middle England settled Pennsylvania and Maryland, and those from southern England found their way to Virginia and the Carolinas.

Just some trivia.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-17-2003, 02:19 PM:

There was quite a nice piece in today's Telegraph, in which residents of Bagdad, Arizona, were interviewed about their thoughts on the forthcoming war...

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 03-18-2003, 06:37 PM:

Remember to mention, that when the queen once dies, and a king takes over the British throne, several London-theatres will have to alter their names, being named after the actual regent.
True, isn't it ?

And BTW, what You British and Americans refers to as "danish", comes out of danish baker shop as "wienerbroed" = "Wiener-Bread".

In Denmark, the most used word for a normal beer is "en bajer" - "a bavarian" - after Bayern, a German part-state; a strong beer-sort of ours is the "Dortmunder", after a big german city. After entering the European Union, danish breweries may have to alter these names, but the wienerbread has not yet been claimed illegal !! [beer]

Per

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-19-2003, 02:23 AM:

There have been several Euro-rows over the use of place names as a generic name for a product, e.g. Champagne and sparkling wine, Budweiser and lager (there is actually a brewery is Ceske Budjewice producing something called Budweiser, which was sued by the American giant), Cheddar as cheese and so on and so forth.

As for the Queen, if she makes it as far as her mother did, London's theatres have another 30 years or so to go before they need to worry about that problem!

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-19-2003, 06:46 AM:

Budweiser was, and still is, originally brewed in the now Czech republic. The US Budweiser was given or bought permission to use the name way way back in 18something. It's easy enough now to distinguish the two products, the proper Czech stuff is Budweiser Budvar and tastes nice, the US stuff is just Budweiser and is pretty yuck in comparison. Mind you it's highyl likely that the stuff sold as Budweiser here isn't made in the US.

Read all about Budvar here

and Budweiser here

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-19-2003, 07:46 AM:

And to clear up the matter of the different names, it has to be understood that the part of Czekhia called Bohemia was inhabited by Czekhs and Germans who coexisted peacefully for centuries.
Some cities, like Prague, had large German and Czekh populations. Afer WW2 and the communist revolution, all Germans had to leave Bohemia.
The name "Budweiser" is the German, "Budvar" the Czekh variation.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-19-2003, 04:36 PM:

Thanks Michael, I thought you might have some 'insider' knwledge [Wink]

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 03-20-2003, 04:33 PM:

Aaron
English place names used in the US and Canada are not so regionalised as you infer. I currently live near Yeadon in West Yorkshire ,I believe there is a place named after it in Pennsylvania.
35 miles away to the south is Sheffield , South Yorkshire (as in Alabama) and 70 miles further SW is Birmingham(also as in Alabama).
Bradford ,where I work , has many towns named after it including one an hours drive north of Toronto.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-20-2003, 05:57 PM:

Isn`t there also a small town on the American east coast named after York?

Posted by Hugh McCullough (Member # 1542) on 03-20-2003, 06:28 PM:

The correct title is not Kingston-on-Thames, Surrey, but Kingston-upon-Thames, Surrey.
Kingstonions get quite up tight if the word 'on' is used instead of 'upon'.
For an English town to become a City it has to have the title
'City' bestowed on it by the Crown.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 03-20-2003, 07:44 PM:

Yes, Michael, there is. That would be York, Pennsylvania.