Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Any large format VTR fans out there? I need some help..

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Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 04-08-2003, 11:36 AM:

Hello..
No.. this has nothing to do with film, I hope I'm posting this in the right place too..
I need some help in finding the operation and service manual ( with schematics) for the U-matic video recorder Sony VO6800.
Other than "fooling around" with film, I also like this old kind of video stuff. would go for a quadriplex (sp?) if I'd find any
even the U-matics are hard to find. got one vcr of the model mentioned above but it doesn't want to do much other than just turn on and off and act all weird when I put a tape in, turn it off then on again,the control panel doesn't work.
any help?
thanks

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 04-08-2003, 06:31 PM:

I used to have some U-matic cassettes & some 1 & 2inch wide reel tapes I took out of the dumpster of an NBC TV staion in my area.. I do have some manuals for an Ampex ACR-25 casette recorder which used 2 inch wide quad tape that you wound onto the spools after removing them from the casettes.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-08-2003, 07:17 PM:

I used to maintain a bunch of RCA TR-22 Quad machines and a number of Ampex AVR-2's. It was lots of fun and lots of headaches. The TR-22's used all germainum semiconductors and you never shut them off....ever! If you did it could take days to get one to run properly again. The AVR-2's were really nice machines and were ultra reliable. Wish I could find a nice AVR-2 out there to preserve...not many left. All of these ended up in the dumpster when the station moved to new studios. The same station also had 6 RCA TK-45 color cameras that I also did alot of work on. These got powered down and moved between three different studios several times daily. We always kept them looking nice in spite of all the moving around and powering down and then back up.
See this link to see a variety of neato broadcast equipment...
http://www.lionlmb.org/quadpark.html
Also....
http://www.pharis-video.com/
Mark

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 04-08-2003, 08:09 PM:

Quad machines looks neat.. but they're too big for me..
but if I find one.. will find a way to take it home even if it forces me to get another place just to store it..
Well.. still didn't find out what's going on with my Sony VO6800
I sure need the service manual and schematics for it.
any idea where I'd find it on the net?

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 04-08-2003, 08:29 PM:

Being a portable 3/4", that model always had a problem loading
tape. I will see if I still have any paper work on that model.

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 04-08-2003, 09:21 PM:

The problem I'm having with this one is:
unit powers up (tru power supply, no batteries for it), Put the tape in, and nothing else happens. none of the buttons on the control panel works.
If I turn the power off then back on with the tape in the unit, it'll start loading on jumps, video head spins fast while this hapens, once the tape is fully loaded, everything stops and stays that way.. again, nothing works on the panel. when I press the eject button, it starts unloading but stops right after and leaves the tape all lose in the unit. cycling power on/off doesn't do anything after it and I have to take the tape out by hand [Frown]

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-09-2003, 07:43 AM:

I'm way to old to think U-matic is "large format"...
I'd maybe call 1"-C large format, but most of those machines could actually be carried by one person - a short distance. That's not really large. Something you need a crew and a crane to install, that's large.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 04-09-2003, 08:57 AM:

I've had several 3/4" U matic machines. Ran a VO-1600 for years.

These old formats have been workhorses for me. I was recording video off of TV back in the mid 1970's. Many of these programs were recorded on tapes that were well-used when I got them.

I was given tapes by my TV bosses when they got too bad to use for broadcasting. Back then, a new KCA-60 tape sold for around $25! I was glad to get them.

My current Sony U-Matic was given to me when the local TV station moved up to digital. This deck dubbed all the "keeper" video clips from the news department up to digital tape. It has less than 200 hours of use. It's also the heaviest VCR that I have weighing in at 80 pounds!

I've got some old low-band 2" quad tapes from the early 1970's, too. I'd love to have a 2" deck, but am realistic when I think of the room that this set-up would take, not to mention air supplies, etc. [Embarrassed]

!!

An ACR-25? Isn't this the cart machine for 2" commercials, etc? If it is, AARAUGH! Ours ate tapes for breakfast!

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 04-09-2003, 02:09 PM:

Hmm.. I thought the U-matics were into the large format vtr's.. oh well..don't know why but I like this format even if it needs 2 or more tapes to have something like a movie recorded in them and takes a lot of space to store.
Tried to find any tech doc for my recorder but the only anser I got was " it's a professional equipment.. Sony won't give us anything related to pro equipment" [Frown]

seems it'll have it's way to the dump [Frown]

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 04-10-2003, 05:14 PM:

well.. everything went R.I.P for that vtr today at 6:48Pm (br time)
*sigh...*

[ 04-10-2003, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Luciano Brigite ]

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 04-10-2003, 05:39 PM:

Oh God, Bruce... thanks a lot for reminding me of the ACR's.
A station I used to work at had an RCA TCR 100... pretty much the same beast, just a different brand. Master control was upstairs, and you could hear that thing kick in downstairs in the lobby when they hit a commercial break. There's nothing like that distinctive "hiss" they made as the vacuum sucked the tape into place. Sounded a lot like the air brakes on a truck.
They nursed that machine along until at least the early 90's, until they could find an alternative for spot playback. By the end, they had bought three or four other TCR's for parts, and had even hired a retired RCA engineer to maintain it. He had a full-time job just replacing parts on it.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 04-10-2003, 07:05 PM:

I worked at another place that had the RCA machine.

The Ampex deck would jam at random. It looked good when it worked right...

I bet that Sony U-matic deck had something small wrong with it. I HATE Sony when it comes to getting information out of them. They charge you a fortune for the parts, then dont want to help you be sure that this is all that is wrong so you dont have to order again.

I bought a single rubber pinch roller for my 3/4" deck when I got it. $129!!! I just about [puke]

I've never bought from them again, either.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 04-10-2003, 07:15 PM:

quote:
from Mark G:
The same station also had 6 RCA TK-45 color cameras

Lucky stiff! We had IVC cameras at our station [bs]

We had to register them at least 3 times a day, and that was with NO shutdowns or moves. Also, a Sparta audio console with carbon pots & lousy specs. Fortunately, most TVs still had crummy speakers, but that excuse was starting to wear thin.

We did have Ampex quads though... they were very nice... one that could actually do vertical interval editing!... and a couple of RCA film chains with those battleship Kodak 16mm machines & the RCA slide units.

The other guys down the street had TK45's... and we regularly considered all forms of nefarious methods to effect a "trade" [evil]

The one U-Matic machine we had was huge, & sat on a counter in the film chain room. I don't recall ever seeing it actually run. It was in mid '72, & the owner considered U-Matic a passing fad.

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 04-10-2003, 09:20 PM:

The problem it had I already mentioned before, but ehre it goes again: the controls ( play,ffwd, rew, etc) didn't work, if the power was turned off then on again with a tape in it, it'd start loaing it, making a lot of solenoid noises and the video head spins slow then it gives hte impression that it was going to run but stops and stays that way .the only thing that 'd work was the eject button. ok.. after several hours trying to find out what's going on, decided to run the osciloscope on it again.. but this time I de-assembled the front panel and started checking it. and he hell broke loose. don't have any idea about what happened, it was without tape and all the motors simply turned on at full speed, even hte video head, looked like it was going to fly out of the assembly. power off/on won't bring it back to the previous state. and after it happened, the audio is acting up now too.. there's a loud,high freq. signal coming out of both audio outs. that's the story.. its now laying all open inna cardboard box..I did find the service manualfor it. but I paid about $100.00 for the vtr and they asked $65 for the manual.. no deal for me [Frown]

will keep looking for it for a little more but don't think it'll get back to work. any help is still welcome

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 04-11-2003, 01:20 AM:

We had TK-42s and TK-43s... Big! A humongously complex optic/light path, and if I remember right, a 3-1/2" Image Orth and 3 each vidicons.... and TONS of set-ups! [Smile]

My favorite camera is the B&W TK-60...GOD, what a sharp, low-noise pic! PLUS it was really cool looking! [thumbsup]

I never thought of 3/4 as "Large Format" but just U-Matic or 3/4. [Big Grin]

2" Quad was large format to me! I would love to find a RCA TR-4 (Hmmm, if I remember the model number right..maybe TR-44?) 2" Quad machine in good condition. [evil]

HAhahahah

>>> Phil

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-11-2003, 04:26 AM:

...and so would hundreds of moving image archives. The BBC, for example, estimates that it has some 400,000 hours of quadruplex tape in its collection, but only about 30,000 head hours remaining on the machines it has.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-11-2003, 07:43 AM:

Are refurbished heads for 2-inch quad recorders still available? VTR head supplier Spin Physics in San Diego used to be a Kodak subsidiary. Who makes/refurbishes video tape heads today?

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-11-2003, 07:51 AM:

Site with lots of Quad machines.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 04-11-2003, 03:52 PM:

Stephen, WOW! What a great site! Thanks for the tip! I'm still breathing hard from my visit! [evil]

The machine I was thinking about was the TR-4. The TR-5 pic has a TK-60 camera with it.

A friend of mine had a TR-2 ...never knew the model number, but I sure remember all them thar tubes!

Thanks again!

>>> Phil

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 04-11-2003, 06:37 PM:

--------
Are refurbished heads for 2-inch quad recorders still available? VTR head supplier Spin Physics in San Diego used to be a Kodak subsidiary. Who makes/refurbishes video tape heads today?
--------

AheadTek Electronics out of San Jose CA. still carries Ampex Quad panels from the Mark X on up, along with just about any kind of video recording head you can think of (but you have to buy new 'cause they don't relap old panels). . .

www.drs-ahead.com

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 04-11-2003, 07:12 PM:

When I was on a training course, Ampex 2" Quad was included. My favourite operational machine was 1" C format.

Thanks for that interesting link Stephen.

A company in London supply all types of video heads.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-11-2003, 07:12 PM:

We used to have all the Quad head panels re-done by Spin Physics. We rarely lost any on the Ampex's as they had sophisticated vacuum gap servos that would prevent very much head damage. The RCA TR-22's were another story all together though...totally manual vacuum gap servos on those, and we went through quite a few panels. One or two of the heads usually literally broke off on those dudes. The TR-22's were originally low band monochrome, that were then converted to high band monochrome, and then to high band color. Glad that was all done when I got there!

I don't remember what rebuilt panels cost back in the late 70's early 80's but it was ALOT, perhaps as high as 10 to 15K per panel. I remember the Chief always cried when one went...or when a Klystron went in the TTU-110. The transmitter we ran was a whole other VERY AMAZING story. If anyone's interested I'll tell it, but if no one is I won't bother......
Mark

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 04-11-2003, 08:00 PM:

Mark:

I love Klystron stories! Just throw a little film on it to keep me interested...

I saw a bird fly into the aural transmitter at a big UHF station in Nashville, TN. when I worked there. POW! Feathers everywhere! Is Eimac still in business? We bought klystrons from them waay-back-when..

I think Luciano may have hit something when he pulled the panels off his U-matic Sony. Maybe he has some pinched wires, or maybe a ground issue?

I had a similar problem with a SL-900HF Beta machine when I got it. Would do some functions, then stop. Turned out there was a single wire that had rubbed on the chassis. Was a monster to troubleshoot. Every time I would open it up, it would work perfectly. Thought this might help...

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 04-11-2003, 08:45 PM:

I don't know for sure what happened, I had pulled out the front control panel then removed the front cover of it.everything stayed the same after that, already had checked all the wiring for misplaced conectors and broken/damaged wires and everything was ok.I was checking the signals on the control panel ( the one with the buttons) with my scope when things got @%¨$% *¨&&$$@ even more. all of it's boards have those lousy smd devices on both sides and some have htose IC's with zillion terminals all around it. I think devices like that should be prohibited. they're the biggest [bs]

IMO... dunno.. maybe I touched the board I was holding on the other still in the machine.. or something there didn't like being probed by my scope..
I'm waiting for a reply from a company that has the VO6800 service manual for sale.. the $65 will be a damm kick in my rear end but I'm not giving up on this vt very ez.. just hope the dude reply my email..
and about tquad's machines.. while looking for the manual here wher I live, was talking to someone that worded for a production company , he said that one company he knows a lot of ppl there, had about 3~4 quad machines and they no longer uses them. hte curious thing.. the production company has 2 studios that were put up in a place that originally was.. a twin movie theatre.. and acording to him.. those quads are laying somewhere in the basement of these studios.. now.. wish I'd put my hands on them.. but they won't throw them away for sure nor sell any for cheap.. also don't know anyone in that prod. company.. even if i'd get any of them... I think that quad tapes are no longer made.. atleast I never saw any of them for sale,brand new in any places I knwo that deals with pro tapes..
for now I wanna bring my U-matic back to life.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-11-2003, 11:07 PM:

The Channel 38 transmitter is an interesting story but I'll tellan abbreviated story of it....I don't recall any birds ever getting in the 94th floor where the transmitter was but that would have been an interesting happenning.....

It was an RCA TTU-110 100kw UHF transmitter that was atop the Hancock building in Chicago. It was originally supposed to be WCFL TV. That was the Chicago Federation Of Labor, and their call letters. The FCC gave them permission to construct the site and a liscense to operate but then revoked it because they were a labor union. So the site sat and sat for around 7 or 8 years. Then a start up religeous station was looking for a broadcast site, and transmitter, and bought the WCFL xmitter equipment for a rediclous sum of either $1.00, or $100.00...can't remember which amount but doesn't matter....WAY TOO CHEAP!

Anyway I worked there 2nd shift in engineering and worked with the transmitter engineer on Sunday nights from 12 midnight to 6am...the only time period we were off the air at all during the week. Aside from probably being the cheapest bought 100kw UHF transmitter it was also the very first transmitter that had a pulser installed. It was an add on kit from RCA and was a looooong time in the designing...and installation. Basically it limited the sync pulse power transmitted to conserve power usasge of which this thing used gobs of. 1200 amp 3 phase feed! Typical electric bills ran anyplace from 19K to 23K a month! With the pulser installed on it that bill dropped to a maximum of 14K a month and the pulser addition was paid for in less than a year. There were many problems with the transmitter, including fires breaking out in the high voltage rectifier cubicals. RCA used potted series high voltage rectifiers that failed and when they failed they caught fire.....So all 6 cubicles, which together developed 18kv at almost 20 amps were totally stripped of the RCA potted rectifiers and rebuilt one cubicle at a time with seperate rectifiers in series mounted on studs on special HV dilectric material. This cured the rectifier failures and I don't think another ever went bad. Other problems we had were water leaks in the klystron plumbing and such and that was always on the mend. The Klystrons do vibrate a bit and the plumbing expands and contracts, so leaks did occasionally develope around the 18kv high voltage. The transmitter would automatically shut down and had dozens of water sensors to detect leaks at crucial points in the transmitter cubicle itself. A major leak would instantly take you off the air. We had a number of Klystron failures mainly fomr lightning strikes rto the transmission towers on the Hancock building which were around 100 stories up. Every time you get a dose of lightning inside the tube it erodes part of the graphite comtrol grid away...after a few serious strikes you have little left of the grid and no operating tube. The tubes were rebuilt and shipped in a special casket looking case. They went back to Varian here in Salt Lake City to be rebuilt for well over 100K per tube back then...as far as I know they are still rebuilt here. The Varian factory is still here, out by the airport. Interestingly the original aurl klystron which came with the transmitter was the one still in use when I left the station. We ran it at 2/3 rated power as aurl signals carry farther than visual do. For some reason lightning strikes never affected that tube. I'll try to dig out some pics of the place and post em here. There are more stories about this place but this is enough to give one an idea of some the headaches and expenses involved.

Mark

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 04-12-2003, 11:59 AM:

Leaky water plumbing around a 18KV spot ? [Eek!]

Didn't know that transmitters also used water-cooled tubes, only heard of the air cooled ones .

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-12-2003, 06:55 PM:

Well, we put in de-ionized/distilled water and got steam back out. The condensers for this transmitter...one for each Klystron....were the size of a large School Bus and located one floor above the transmitter room! That turned the steam back into water again and cooled it down somewhat. There was also some water loss....some from all the leaks, and some from normal loss so we ran our own still to make the cooling water.
I knew other engineers from other transmitter sites, Chan 44 for instance, that ran the same RCA Transmitter and had the same leaky problems. I'm pretty sure though that we had the only poorly designed High Voltage rectifier stacks as this TTU-110 was the first one that RCA built....1964 vintage.
Mark

Posted by Luciano Brigite (Member # 1104) on 04-13-2003, 12:01 AM:

The idea of leaky water connections and 18Kv near eachother is still scary for me... The transmiter itself isn't really interesting to be.. but what's inside is.. some transmitter tubes have a nice look.. The lamp I have next my bed was made with a Philips TB4/1250 tube and the aluminium core taken from the reel of a 1" tape.. already had some friends wanting it.
Maybe I'll make another one when I find ( if I still have it) an Eimac 3CX2500A3 and the mech parts from my VO6800 in case I can't fix it