This is topic Just To P.O. The Cops Some People Do Interesting Stuff in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 05-11-2003, 08:57 AM:
 
As I was headed to the theatre yesterday I was passed by a guy on a motorcycle riding bareheaded. As Virginia is a state that requires helmets I was thinking that it's one thing to enjoy a ride without a helmet, but how much time can you waste getting pulled over and receiving citations. At a traffic light a few blocks later I looked over at him and saw that he had glued a wig to an open face helmet and painted the helmet to look like the back of a mans neck below the hair line. I gave him a thumbs up and went on.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 05-11-2003, 03:12 PM:
 
Well, Bill...you may disagree with me, but driving any machine whether it be a car or motorcycle is considered a privilege, and not a right. Since it is a privilege, a person must abide by the rules. If one chooses not to abide by the rules, he or she can expect to "pay" or even lose the privilege.

Cops have a keen eye. They are trained to remember things. Unfortunately for some, the cops remember too well.

Everyone screws up from time to time while driving. The best way to get stopped is to do something that will make you stand out like a sore thumb while driving.

Cops up here will stop you for a burned out headlight or tail light, as they also do in many other states. You would be surprised how many routine traffic stops result in an arrest for things such as outstanding warrants, no driver's license, outdated registration, no insurance, drug running, and hundreds of other infractions.

You see them every day....and you will say to yourself that many drivers are not the brightest bulb in the box.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-11-2003, 04:58 PM:
 
I know someone who used to keep a life size semi-realistic doll seat-belted into the passenger seat. He could fly down the freeway right past cops and they wouldn't budge. His theory was that they won't stop and harass you if you have a witness in the car, because a judge will pretty much always side with the cop.

Hmmmmm, you know thinking back I've never been stopped when I had a passenger with me.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-11-2003, 05:17 PM:
 
Bill, that is hilarious! I love it!

In an earlier period in my life, I bought a brand-spanking-new hot red 1985 Z-28 with the BIG V8 & 4-speed. Tricked it all out and tinted the back window at 80% and it looked cool.

Being in L.A., in the summer I always drove with the windows down, the T-tops off, and the A/C on.

CHP and LAPD would pull up along side of me and yap at me on their speaker to roll up my side windows to see if they were tinted. They weren't. The cops were too lazy to pull me over and check for themselves!

Brad: Passenger? You got rid of that blow-up doll?

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Matt Hale (Member # 1518) on 05-11-2003, 06:32 PM:
 

quote:

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Hmmmmm, you know thinking back I've never been stopped when I had a passenger with me.

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quote:

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His theory was that they won't stop and harass you if you have a witness in the car, because a judge will pretty much always side with the cop.

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His theory would be wrong, at least in California. Judges are neutral until they hear the evidence. At least in this state, statistics show that you have a 50 percent chance of beating the ticket if you go to court to protest it (most people don't). For one thing, if the cop doesn't show up to testify (and in many instances are too busy to do so) the fine gets thrown out. And even then, there are arguments that can get you off (many speed "limits" are so vague according to the way they are writen in the law, they can become "suggestions.") THere ARE maximums, of course, but if you can explain why you were safely driving through a 25 mph zone while going 40, oir had a good reason for doing so, the judge WILL listen and often rule in your case. And as far as PARKING tickets are concerned, the most overused are the ones for parking in a "for official use only" spot. Especially when there is nothing in the parking regulations explaining what "official use" is.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-13-2003, 04:31 AM:
 
In Los Angeles, I agree about the judges being neutral and about the cops not showing up. I don't necessarily agree about the "excuse" will get you outta a ticket.

It's very true the judge will listen to your "excuse" and IF it is reasonable, will let you off. Problem is, most jerks have such lame reasons that it's a joke. They get the fine as they should!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-13-2003, 08:44 AM:
 
What reasons could one give a judge for driving faster than the posted speed limit? I have just read the California DMV handbook, and it says very explicitly that there is never an excuse for driving faster than allowed.
I would think that if you had an injured person in your car bleeding to death, then they would listen to you but other than that?
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-13-2003, 12:13 PM:
 

quote:

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from Michael...
California DMV handbook, and it says very explicitly that there is never an excuse for driving faster than allowed

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In Washington, they have fixed "default" speeds for various roads... ie: "unposted within city limits" would be 25 or 30 mph, and the like. Then they overlay the actual speed limit signs to adjust specific areas to conditions, population, schools, open highways, etc. This way, you can't use the argument that there's no limit because an area isn't posted, or that you were driving fast but appropriately for conditions. The law gives the judges & police a reference to roll back to, so removing (or running over) a speed limit sign wouldn't work very well here..

The problem is that these default limits are published in the driver's guide you use when you first get your license. I don't know where else you'd find them, unless you looked up the state regs on the internet or something... but I doubt most people would remember what they are, once they get out the door with their license.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-13-2003, 01:48 PM:
 
Even if you had taken your driver`s test 45 years ago, aren`t you supposed to inform yourself about current regulations? The same applies to drivers from other states or other countries. So I couldn`t imagine telling the judge you weren`t aware of the unposted speed limit would impress him very much.
So, which reasons could be accepted for driving faster than allowed?
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 05-13-2003, 02:38 PM:
 
Yes, Michael. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Jack mentioned something about the default speed limit. On county roads in Washington State, the speed limit by default is 35mph unless otherwise posted. Normally, 50mph is what most postings are on those roads if they are in good shape.

In the city, default speed limit is 25mph unless otherwise posted.

School zones vary from 10 to 20mph when children are present but that sometimes depends on the location.
 

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Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 06-17-2004, 11:36 AM:
 

It has been 400 days since the last post.

 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-17-2004, 11:36 AM:
 
I just got my first speeding ticket last night. Woo-hoo. (not.) It claims that I was going 55mph in a 40mph zone (which is possible, but unlikely).

I am planning to appeal it due to, among other things, several errors in the ticket itself (date is listed as "6/17/80"; my car's color is listed as "Green" instead of "Blue," etc.). Any suggestions as to what else I should do? I'm planning to file a request for discovery with the police department to get the officer's notes, logs, etc.

With Massachusetts insurance rates being high, this could easily cost me $1500 or more over the next 6-7 years (the ticket itself is $150), so any ideas would be appreciated.
 

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Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 06-17-2004, 12:12 PM:
 
Observe how the judge conducts his cases prior to your case. If the judge does not seem to listen to reason, see if you can get away with a defensive driving course as a substitute for the ticket. Defensive driving rules vary from state to state.

But if you do want to fight it
1) You probably do not have to request a discovery of logs and other stuff. The cop is supposed to bring that to the courtroom to back up his testimony. If the device is laser, check to see before the court date if laser is an approved device in your state. If you got caught by radar, then it is likely an approved device already. An approved device is something that a cop could use in testimony without having to defend its accuracy. The only defense you have with the use of an approved device is that the cop had improper logs or that he wasn't in proper position to aim the device at your car(the second part is very tricky to use in an argument).

2) Never admit you think you went 45 in a 40 or 50 in a 40 to prove the cop was wrong on the 15 above the speed limit. You will be found guilty. Instead, stick to the assertion that you were not going 55. You are not obligated to testify. Use what you were going to testify with as questions for the cop instead and make him answer them. The only reason you would admit to possibly going over the speedlimit is to get the judge to reduce the speed violation in lieu of dismissing the ticket.

3) Be prepared for the cop to lie and don't lose your poise if he does. I have had it happen to me twice in GA. One of the cases, the cop was busted months later in the famous Goldclub strip club case where he fixed tickets. A few months later. He was outright lying about facts of the case. I used the lies to my advantage because he contradicted himself. In the second case, I lost it because the judge was a moron. It was obvious to everyone he was lying (he did not notify me of my right to calibration on the spot, but he claimed he did after I cited the law and after he agreed with my testimony which contradicts his later assertion.)

Good luck.
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 06-17-2004, 12:17 PM:
 
Sorry to hear that Scott.

How did you get nailed? If it was by radar, there are quite a few ways to get a radar citation thrown out. Some examples: In many states the radar has to have documentation of current (usually daily) calibration. Most cops don't bother with the calibration, let along documenting it. If there's no calibration documentation, any citations issued based on that radar unit that day will be thrown out upon challenge. Also, many states require that radar only be used on single lane highways and roads. If you get cited by radar on a multi-lane road in such a state, the citation can be tossed out if you argue it.

If the speed determination was done by tailing you (by car or aircraft) or using a visual system like VASCAR, you may have a harder time beating the citation.

BTW, given your age and driving record, most insurance companies will give you the benefit of the doubt on a first-time speeding violation, i.e. no rate increase. I know GEICO for one doesn't do that, but most companies (like my old State Farm policy) will cut some slack in a situation like yours.
 

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Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 06-17-2004, 01:00 PM:
 
I once got out of a ticket because the officer who wrote the ticket wrote the wrong infraction number on the ticket.

It's called dumb luck.
 

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Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 06-17-2004, 01:12 PM:
 
I have gotten out of every citation I have ever been issued, simply on dumb technicalities, such as wrong citation numbers, wrong dates, wrong description of car, wrong dl number, etc.

You MUST file for discovery before the hearing date. If you wait until the hearing date, you will not know what you are up against. If you file for discovery before hand, you will know EVERYTHING that the officer will bring to the hearing, and nothing else can be brought to the hearing that is NOT in the discovery information. If the officer brings anything else that is not listed in discovery, you can ask for at LEAST a 10 day delay in the hearing OR that the information not be admitted to the hearing as it was not in discovery. The prosecution whether it be criminal or civil MUST list all evidence in discovery before hand. The defense does not have to do so, as they are not the accuser, but the accused.

If after discovery you find that fighting it may not be a good idea, you have another option, depending on the judge.

I cannot remember the exact term, but it has to do with abayence (sic?). This is where you pay the fine and an administrative fee, and the ticket is not reported to your record or your insurance company. You are usually given six months to a year to be a good boy, and then the ticket is overturned, and the court keeps the money, and you get a clean record.

That's all I have to offer,

CIao

Dave
 

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Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 06-17-2004, 02:10 PM:
 
Yep Dave is correct and ignore my previous advice about discovery. Discovery can help in predetermining how strong your case is on the technicalities. I just thought that since the guy was so sloppy writing your ticket, why bother with the discovery, and you can question his accuracy in implementing the radar even if the radar itself was deemed accurate by the state. After all, a surgeon who uses accurate instruments can't avoid medical liability with the excuse his instruments are always accurate. Also, I think if you properly file for discovery and you don't get the documents, you can either ask for a continuance or request dismissal of the case. I have gotten out of 80% of my cases(i get a lot). Ironically, two losing cases were where I had the best arguments (and even a witness on one of them) which I think pissed the judge off.
 

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Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 06-17-2004, 02:22 PM:
 
I'm not sure about your neck of the woods Scott, but in Texas there's a couple of ways to get take care of a speeding ticket, other than contesting it.

1. Deffered Adjuication - usually about 6 months on probation, no more tickets - it gets dismissed and is not reported to the insurance agencies.

2. Deffensive Driving courses - State law requires them to be 6 hours in legnth and cost a minumum of $35, but no only does your ticket get dismissed, you can acutally get a DISCOUNT on your insurance. You can only use Defensive Driving for a disconunt/ticket dismissal once every 3 years. Insurance discount can be up to 10%.

In both these cases you still have to pay court fees (the Man is STILL going to stick it to you) but they're considerably cheaper than paying the ticket.

Contesting a ticket is often a gamble. However in Texas if the citing officer dosen't show up to court, it gets dismissed. But you have to deal with the hassle of showing up in court, or hiring an attorney to do so for you.
 

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Posted by Ben Holley (Member # 2247) on 06-17-2004, 03:25 PM:
 
I have a friend who got out of a ticket by asking the judge when the last time the officer logged that he had his radar gun calibrated...may work if the officer doesnt come prepaired
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-17-2004, 04:44 PM:
 
If a cop asks me how fast I was going I try to give him a specific number. Let's say you're doing 42/35. Tell him flat out, "37 MPH." He'll say, "No, it was 42."

Your next response should be, "Oh, I'm sorry. Does that mean you have to give me a ticket?" Of course, the answer will be, "Yes.", but now you have the room to ask for leniency. (Or give an excuse. )

I did this exact thing on I-85 going through Virginia. I was doing 85/65. When I got to the "plea for leniency" (excuse) part I told him that I had just bought a new car. My old car was a Dodge Neon and the new one is a Mazda 626. I said, "I'm sorry I wasn't paying attention to my speed but this new car doesn't feel like it's going as fast as my old one.

He told me that since he'd already radioed-in for the traffic stop, he said he was obliged to give me a ticket but I got out of it with only a 74/65 citation. Only a $60 fine and no points. (He said that they don't report points for out of state licenses unless they are +10/n.)

I was on my way to a call at the time but on the way home I drove by the County Courthouse and paid the fine in cash within a couple of days. I figured I'd get away as clean as I could.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-17-2004, 05:53 PM:
 
Teaser Topic! Bill, please rephrase your year old topic that, ummm, Brad missed![av=m]
 

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Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 06-17-2004, 06:22 PM:
 
be careful about the technicalities....and do it right...
you can't go into court and say you were speeding and say "well he said my car was green and it's blue..." b/c you said you were speeding. Don't admit guilt

I've also heard a little trick about re-scheduling....basically you call the courthouse and tell them you are ill or unable to make it and ask them to reschedule it...the cop might not check up on the next date and if he isn't there, ticket is bye-bye...just what I've heard, I probably wouldn't try it myself...
 

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Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 06-17-2004, 06:58 PM:
 
As mentioned above, requesting the calibration documentation for a radar traffic stop can work. How often the calibration must be done varies from state to state. In some places, it is indeed daily.
 

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Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 06-17-2004, 08:41 PM:
 
Just do not show up to court with the words "FUCK DA POLICE" tatooed across your forehead. Also what means of determining speed did the Occifer.. I mean Lucifer use to detrmine yiur speed? If it was a radar gun, how was it used. Was there any other cars or moving activity going on around you that you might be aware of? IE A Cra travaelling in the opposite direction that could have been speeding? Were was the "Bacon Wrap" when he determined you were speeding? Was he in the same lane of travel? The Opposite Lane, or on a side street? Although it is after the fact now, in the future if you are pulled over. Question the officer about his means of determing speed. If it is in fact a radar gun, ask to see the gun itself an take not of the Make and Model. Then question the officer on his extened use of such said piece of equipment. Noting things such as how does one calibrate the unit to determine speed. Then get in conatct with the manufacturer to see if the officer knows what he is doing with it or not. Then you can make him look like a n idiot in court on top of getting out of a ticket. My Brother and I have had numerous tickets dismissed in the past here in Texas due to the incompetence of the office when using a radar gun. Gets to be quiet humerous some times.
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 06-18-2004, 01:01 AM:
 
Topic title altered to suit whim of moderator. The question is....if the title was OK for 13 months, why is it now unsatisfactory???
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 06-18-2004, 07:31 AM:
 
I wish you better luck; I've never gotten out of one even if not guilty!

When the radar guns 1st came out in the early nationwide 55 mph days, I got a ticket for 72 in a 55 zone. I was driving 55. I gathered all my info, did my research, brought out the cases of incorrect readings on that model gun, asked when the gun was last calibrated (got a shrug from the officer). At that point, the judge interrupted me & said "Well Mr. Hooper, if radar didn't work, I don't think they'd have it." Ka-ching.

I got a local ticket for 57 in a 55 zone. No way out, & the state didn't want anything to do with disputing it.

Driving at night 55, with a car on my rear bumper running bright lights. Slow down to 50 so they'll go around, he stays. Slow down to 45, nothing, then 40, the blue lights come on. "Mr. Hooper, you're driving sort of slow & erratically." Blow up the balloon, walk the line, sit in the cop car, while other cops arrive & shoot the crap with the other guys & laugh & loaf around, after about 50 minutes "Well, we're gonna let you go this time because you didn't fail the breathalyzer, but I have to give you this ticket for your tail light out." Drive away with the cops following, & when the cops turn off, pull over & check - all tail lights OK.

Cops have hard jobs, but they attract some people who deservedly give the group a reputation as bad as lawyers. Someone used the phrase "Little Hitlers", & it's stuck as an efficient & accurate profile.

Good luck Scott!
 

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Posted by Rachel Gilardi (Member # 1016) on 06-18-2004, 07:42 AM:
 

quote: Scott Norwood

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With Massachusetts insurance rates being high, this could easily cost me $1500 or more over the next 6-7 years (the ticket itself is $150), so any ideas would be appreciated.

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Scott, good news! My one speeding ticket that I have ever gotten I got when I was still living in Mass. My insurance didn't go up a penny. That doesn't mean yours won't but its possible.
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 06-18-2004, 09:58 AM:
 
Rachel, girls receive different treatment than boys with insurance companies. Really.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-18-2004, 05:50 PM:
 
Bill-

I don't know why it was OK for 13 months. I certainly don't remember it. No probs, though. [av=c]
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-18-2004, 06:19 PM:
 
Bill - not to worry, Joe found a thread of Phil's to lock, so you're probably safe until he gets bored again.
 

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Posted by Rachel Gilardi (Member # 1016) on 06-18-2004, 09:12 PM:
 

quote: Tim Reed

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Rachel, girls receive different treatment than boys with insurance companies. Really.

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Yeah, I know! That's cause we drive better.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 06-18-2004, 11:04 PM:
 

quote: Mike Blakesley

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Bill - not to worry, Joe found a thread of Phil's to lock, so you're probably safe until he gets bored again.

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OK Mike! You're really pushing it! If you keep this up, I will cross you off my Christmas card list!

(Dear Diary: Where was that "Joe is a Jerk" thread?)

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 06-20-2004, 12:01 AM:
 

quote: Rachel Gilardi

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Yeah, I know! That's cause we drive better.

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No comment.
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 06-21-2004, 02:59 AM:
 

quote: Tim Reed was the last to post

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That's cause we drive better.

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quote: Rachel Gilardi

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That's cause we drive better.

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In the '70s I had a girlfriend who was caught driving 90mph on the freeway WHILE READING A BOOK (she was studying for a college exam) and she didn't get a ticket. She was (and is) beautiful ... can't say I blamed the cop.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-22-2005, 05:51 PM:
 
Yes, it did take nine months to get a court date. The ticket was dated "6/17/80" and that apparently didn't help matters. I called the RMV last November and they sorted it out then, so I guess it normally should take 3-4 months to get a court date.

Don't even get me started on public records requests. The police department in question ignored my first two public records requests (for information on such matters as calibration of RADAR unit and tuning forks, officer training, FCC licenses, etc.) and only a complaint to the Secretary of the Commonwealth and several followup telephone calls elicited a response. By law, government agencies in Mass. are required to respond to public records requests within ten days; mine took about three and a half months.
 

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Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 03-24-2005, 06:49 PM:
 
Scott,

Was a transcript made of the original hearing? If so, have it with you, as you have tipped your hand now and the prosecutor will be prepared for your questions this time. With the transcript, you can cast doubt on any new answers..

I have pre-paid legal so I don't have to worry about this. If you get a ticket, their lawyers take care of it with no additinal legal fees.
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 03-24-2005, 07:07 PM:
 

quote:

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I was the only person present at the courtroom who had photographs, maps, and other documentation (including the state RADAR training manual and various calibration certificates for the RADAR device....the police department does not have a valid FCC license to operate the RADAR gun lawfully

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ROFL!! That's too good, Scott! Good man! Great. You tell 'im, pal!

I had an incident a couple weeks ago with a NY State cop. I stopped my rig on the shoulder just past a toll booth, to quick change my shoe. I'd had surgery on my foot a week earlier, and I needed to get into a sandal before the night wore on too long. Not much traffic, I was safely on the shoulder out of the toll booth. The shoulder is posted "Emergency Stopping Only"... I had my clearance lights on and 4-ways flashing. Well, this cop rolls up and shines a light in my cab. I'm sitting on the bunk, peeling away a Band-Aid. Then, he knocks. I step into my sandal, stand up, walk to the driver's seat and roll the window down.

I could immediately smell attitude. I don't say a word. I always let cops lead, to hear what their gripe is, what they expect, and to give them as little verbal ammunition as possible to use against me.

He's looking down the road, at the ground, puts his hands on his hips and says, "What's going on?" "Oh, not much", says I, in my usual friendly manner. I wait to hear what else he's got to say, and don't bite on the pregnant pause. Cop looks at the ground and then back down the road, oh...he was a cocky little . "How long you been here?" "About 2 minutes." Then, he lights up, "You've been here for at least 25 minutes! I saw you from the other side of the road more than 20 minutes ago!" A false accusation, okay... Then, voice rising to set him straight, "Sir, we have 6,000 trucks, and we run this corridor all the time. That was another US Xpress truck you saw! I just now stopped." I explained my surgery, and he retorted in that condescending way he'd obviously picked up from the COPS TV show, when they talk to someone who they think is lying.

After a few minutes of trying to corner me with something, his voice stressing greater with each exchange, he pointed back towards the tolls and snapped, "Do you have a receipt from that toll booth back there?" I shot back, "No, but I have EZ-PASS, and you can check it against the computer. I just rolled through, not 2 minutes ago. Check it."

Since I wasn't the ignorant truck driver he probably figured I was, I had him six ways to Sunday. He kept looking back down the road with these long pauses. I know he was trying to think of a smart ass remark, or a way to get out the situation without looking foolish, but while showing me he was still "in charge".

Cop: "This is for emergency stopping only."
Me: "It WAS an emergency."
Cop: (snidely) "Oh, it's an emergency, huh?"
(long pause, looks down road)
"Well, when are you leaving?"
Me: "Right now."
Cop: (fires back) "I don't see it movin'!"

I couldn't help but think, "Well, that's because you keep standing here engaging me." Of course, that was his way to convince his ego that he was in control. I almost told him to relax, he was still in charge. Or, mention that if he'd not stopped in the first place, I'd have been gone already! But, the night was young, and I wanted to get to Boston before sunrise.

I sit down in the seat, put my seatbelt on and start rolling the window up. He's flapping his arms, hollering, "If I come back here in a few minutes, and you're still here, I'm gonna start writing tickets."

I silently cast a glance his way and go about putting the truck in motion.

As I start to pull away, suddenly, the cop SCREAMS:
"I WANT THIS TRUCK OUTTA HERE NOWWW!!!" The man was out of control.

The more I think about it, the more I wish I'd gotten his number, or called 911 an had a supervisor meet us there. Guys like this are accidents waiting to happen. They let drunks, whores, and criminals talk like crap to them, and then take it out on innocent citizens. He had no reason to treat me the way he did. None. I wasn't breaking any law, and I was properly standing on the shoulder in an emergency attitude.

When he discovered he was mistaken, he should've just said, "Well, move it along," and I would've left there respecting him. The NY State Police lost my respect that night with that guy. I'm not going to use my truck to block traffic for them anymore, change lanes when they're on the shoulder, report drunks... nothing! Piss on 'em, if that's the way they treat the general public.
 

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