Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Apple Unveils G5 Supercomputer

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-23-2003, 05:24 PM:

I have to have one!

http://www.apple.com/powermac/

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-23-2003, 05:56 PM:

I disagree a bit about their whole "64-bit" pronouncements. The IBM PowerPC 970 chip they're using for the G5 is stripped down a bit from being a fully 64-bit CPU. And then Mac OS X is not an entirely 64-bit OS.

Aside from that point in semantics, I would bet those new Macs are fast as hell. Hopefully they don't have a leaf-blower fan as loud as a blowdryer like some of those G4s.

Incidentally, Intel announced the release of a 3.2GHz PIV chip today. But with only a .2GHz increase, who cares? It might be newsworthy when they hit that 4GHz milestone.

There's other important developments on these new Macs (arguably as important or more so than this new G5 chip). The new models feature Serial ATA hard discs, which can be easily configured for RAID 1 or RAID 0 striping. They can handle up to 8GB of 400MHz DDR memory. A PC would need a 64-bit version of Win2000 Server (and probably an Itanium CPU) to do the same. The new Macs finally have USB 2.0 support.

Of course, Apple has still done very little in solving the #1 problem in getting PC users to "switch": the cost of buying all new software. Outside of a mere handful of vendors (like Corel, NewTek and Avid) who ship "single inventory" boxes of software containing both Mac and PC versions, most companies want you ponying up lots of dollars to switch platforms.

I use a lot of Adobe and Macromedia products and neither one of those camps will give you free same-version sidegrades of your registered apps. Depending upon the product, you'll either pay at least the same as an upgrade price or you'll have to buy the full version for the new platform. Not a good situation.

My strongest suggestion to Apple is put tons of pressure on Adobe, Macromedia and other vendors to ship software single inventory with Mac and PC install discs in the same box. I don't have much of any plans to "switch" at all until this happens.

The only other way I'm buying a Mac is if I get a good amount of capital to buy some video cameras and production gear at edit everything together with Final Cut Pro. But who knows when 16x9 native 24p DV cameras are going to hit the scene?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-23-2003, 06:35 PM:

Is it just me or are the new machines "fugly"? They do that so it can be "whisper quiet". That means it is only as loud as a hair dryer now instead of a full-fledged leaf blower.

One reason why I will not purchase the new G5 machines is because it will not boot up into OS 9. It will run it under "Classic" mode but that is not good enough. I want to be able to boot into OS 9. If Apple no longer makes any machines that do this, then my next machine will be a PC. OS X is childlike in appearance, slow, and not as user friendly as OS 9.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 06-23-2003, 07:51 PM:

How easy (or difficult) is it to run PC programs on a MAC with Power PC? Does this automatically come with all MACS?

(And I admit to drooling over 8 gig ram...until I checked out the price, over 3 grand more!)

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-23-2003, 11:01 PM:

Paul, you have to buy a Windows emulator called "Virtual PC" which runs at about 33% of a real PC's speed. Most of your programs will work, some won't, most of your peripherals won't (unless they are just printers). The program costs well over $100 since it includes the Windows OS of your choice. Just wait a few more minutes and Windows PCs will come with over 20 terabytes of RAM standard for $15.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-23-2003, 11:40 PM:

You gotta remember that Bill Gates has his paws in MacinSmack computers as well.....so Joe is probably right! [Big Grin]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-24-2003, 01:52 AM:

Joe, I agree. The new case design is fugly looking. I might have misread a news thingie, but does this case really have NINE fans inside? Jeez.

To be quite honest the new case design looks like some kind of Bauhaus-inspired lunch pail or a tin waste basket laid on its side. The previous G4 case design was much more attractive. That's pretty ironic considering many PC vendors are trying to be more creative with their case designs. Considering Apple keeps changing the look of their cases, perhaps the next design will be more pleasing to the eye.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-24-2003, 08:27 AM:

I find that the idea of, "I have to run THIS program on my Mac", is a sort of a trap. There are plenty of programs for the Mac that do the same things that the programs you have on your PC do. Often (not always) the Mac programs do things better. Unless you have a specific program, like DRAS, that you need to do a specific task and that program is not availiable for the Mac then go ahead and use VPC.

Just walk down the aisle of the "computer department" of any major store and look at the software for sale. How many different kinds of "Resume Builders" and "Wedding Planning" programs do you need? How many OTHER programs do you already have that will do the same job? Chances are good that you already have several resume templates in the word processor that you use now. Why not spend the money on a good book that tells you how to write a good resume?

This doesn't mean that if you use Photoshop, for instance, that you'd need a version of that for your Mac. That's an added expense that you might just have to bite the bullet on. On the plus side of the equation, there are some free UNIX versions of programs that you can use. The GIMP is a good Photoshop substitute. It just takes a lot of extra work to get it running and there's the learning curve issue. Still, you might be able to use GIMP temporarily until you can solve the financial issues and get the software you want.

Frankly, whether you are on a PC or a Mac, I think we sometimes let the marketing people tell us what software we "need" to use instead of thinking about the job we want to do and what is the best way to get it done. Then we end up with 9,000,000 programs we don't need and don't use but have spend a lot of money on!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-24-2003, 10:42 AM:

I would not dispute the fact there is an ample amount of software available for the Mac platform. But software availability is not really the key problem in getting Windows users to switch to a Mac. No Windows user alive wants to pay for Mac versions of software he already purchased on the PC side.

It has been an interesting oddity in that one could buy a dual processor Mac for significantly less money than a dual CPU Dell Precision Workstation with similar sized memory, video and hard disc configuration. But all that cost savings is well more than taken away if I have to pony up thousands of dollars to buy Mac versions of software titles I already own on the Windows side.

Of course, one can always preach the "speed" argument. But that it and of itself is a lot of hooey. I just completed a 800MB giant format billboard design on a lowly $1300 Dell 2.53GHz PC loaded with 1GB of DDR RAM. Very little of the work process involved me waiting on the PC to process graphics. Much of the time the PC was waiting for my next move. Having the latest and greatest in hardware would have saved me perhaps only a few seconds of time at best. My 1GHz Dell at home is still serving my needs just fine and it is nearly 3 years old.

And this gets into exactly why the entire computer industry is struggling. People don't really have the need to upgrade hardware. We have a couple PCs in our shop that are over seven years old and still working fine.

Steve Jobs is going to have to do more than just say "Our G8 processor is 800000 times faster than any Intel CPU!!!" The PC users don't really give a crap about that if their icky Wintel 2GHz box still seems fast enough. The speed sale only gets a few existing Mac users with deep pockets to upgrade their machines. Nothing more.

Killer apps are what sell computers. Not CPUs. Final Cut Pro is the ONLY thing that has me tempted at all to buy a Mac. That is it. Nothing else. Apple needs to do more to develop killer apps exclusive to the platform like it did in the 1980s. The Mac used to be the undisputed King in graphics, but not over hardware. It was because there used to be no Windows versions of Illustrator, PageMaker, Photoshop, etc. The Mac used to be the only alternative for professional graphics work. Sadly, they have let that one slip.

PC users are not typically loyal supporters of the platform either. We love to throw darts at pictures of Bill Gates just as much as anyone. But Apple has to realize some market realities and get on the stick about it. Until Apple applies pressure to make "single inventory" Mac/PC software boxes a standard item on store shelves for major titles, the whole "switch" ad campaign will continue to be a laughable joke.

Posted by David Rigby (Member # 1301) on 06-24-2003, 11:25 AM:

Personally I think Apple shot themselves in the foot with their marketing a long time ago in trying to corner the market for (ahem) 'creatives' and basically sell themselves on snob value. That might have been fine n dandy in the world of 30% markup, but not any more. Sure, they're trying to be more 'inclusive' these days, but IMO their marketing still comes across as smug. I wouldn't mind a Mac at some point, but as others have pointed out the software issue is a massive disincentive too.

David

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-24-2003, 12:41 PM:

I know I'm living in the past here, but I was once an obsessive, rabid Apple fan. At the time, I'd have just as soon used a PC as a boat anchor as look at one, except I didn't have a boat. I started with a II, upgraded to a "plus" (lowercase text!!!!) complete with 300 baud modem, bought a IIE knockoff, and eventually had TWO full-blown "GS" boxes, including a massive 60 meg hard drive, an even more massive 100 megger and a tape backup. I was well and truely content.

Then... Apple introduced the Mac.

Within minutes (it seemed), all II series software disappeared from store shelves, and you couldn't get anyone at apple to even acknowledge the existance of a II series... much less find any software or support for it.

With a serious grudge in my heart, I bought my first 286, eventually put the Apple stuff in the back room and never looked at it again.

I know this Mac/PC stuff can erupt in flame wars between camps, but I have software right now that's happily running on pre-6 version DOS, and (prior to ISA) just about all my peripheral cards have been capable of migrating up the chain.

Sorry... but in my mind, Apple's going to have to do a lot more than promote software and price before I'd ever consider committing a business or project to their platforms again.

Posted by Gunnar Johansson (Member # 1661) on 06-24-2003, 01:21 PM:

http://www.haxial.com/spls-soapbox/apple-powermac-G5/
There apparently seems toi be some controversy as to if the G5 is the fastest computer there is. Using the information from official apple site some guy did the math and the statistics and found out that the old saying is true. There´s lies, damned lies and statistics.
I took the story from slashdot.org, news for nerds, stuff that matters...

//Gunnar

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-24-2003, 02:18 PM:

I agree that buying software is a mojor impediment to changing platforms... between any platforms. I'm on the other side of that fence. I do not own any PC programs, never have and for the forseeable future, never will. I can see where others would take the reverse of that.

The thing that a lot of PC users don't know about is that there is a LOT of software out there that's either cheap (shareware) or free for the taking (GNU/UNIX). GIMP works just fine for most of my photo needs. I grant you that it takes a while to get it installed and then you have to learn how to work it, but it's there. I just don't see that many PC users that even KNOW about share/freeware that's available, let alone use it. There just seems to be this attitude of, "If Uncle Bill didn't make it,I don't need it.", when the truth is that Uncle Bill is rich because a lot of people spend money that they don't have to.

Still, that doesn't make YOU feel beter when you find that Photoshop won't at LEAST give you a break on a sideways upgrade. [Frown]

Maybe companies like Adobe need to get the "hurt" put on when people stop buying their stuff. [Wink]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-24-2003, 03:18 PM:

G5? Whoopdee doo. I'm waiting for the G8.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-24-2003, 05:49 PM:

The problem with a lot of freeware/shareware available for Mac, PC, Linux, etc. is much of it is very non-standard and good only for personal use. In a business environment you have to rely greatly on established name brand apps and very expensive trade-specific applications for your workflow.

I would be happy if software developers would just start shipping their next upgrades in Mac/PC form. Over time, PC users would eventually attain Mac licenses and discs for most of their non-Microsoft-branded apps and have an easier time switching (you'll still have the legacy PC file handling headaches such as color shifts and font handling problems).

The thing that is hard to understand is why most software developers have not been shipping Mac/PC single inventory boxes already. It is no secret Microsoft behaves like a turd to just about any third party Windows developer, no matter how big the company (Adobe, Word Perfect, etc.). It would seem like dual platform packaging would put more pressure on Microsoft to improve their products and treat users and developers more fairly.

At any rate, I wish Apple great success with the G5 product lineup. At least it will give Intel a solid kick in the pants to speed up its really slow developmental time (IMHO, PC users could be using 4GHz P5 or Itanium2 CPUs by now).

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-24-2003, 07:42 PM:

I think maybe Bobby is hinting that companies should ship their software with both Mac and PC versions included in the same box. Not sure, but that's kind of the feeling I'm getting from reading his posts. Of course that would be awesome, especially for me since I own a Mac and a PC (both are used for their own purposes). But then companies like Adobe will whine "We can't do that!!!! You are paying for a single user license and you could install it on two different computers potentially! Yes we are being paranoid but we are Adobe! We don't like t' think rationally!"

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-24-2003, 08:32 PM:

Joe, do you have your computers networked together? That alone might prevent you from making "EULA violations."

Macromedia reportedly has software components in their StudioMX apps which sniff across a local network to see if more than one copy of the same serial numbered app is being used. I don't know if it works (because I don't install more than 1 copy of the app on more than 1 machine since I'm so honest [Razz]

).

Of course, everything could just move to security dongles. They're so much fun. They make it necessary for a PC to have three parallel ports just so it can print and run trade-specific software all at the same time! One should not miss out on the joy of HASP and Rainbow drivers. Finally, there's the cage match between the new USB dongles and aging Parallel keys. Which one will win and lock out the other app!? Find out on the pay per view event, broadcast "live on tape" on Dish500 for only $5,995!

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 06-24-2003, 09:27 PM:

Adobe licensing allows for one user to put one copy of a software on two computers, as long as the primary user is the same for both units, AND no two people are using it at the same time (at least thats my understanding). For example, I can use Photoshop on my work computer and at home, as long as no one else is using that Photoshop at work while I am at home using it. They SHOULD extend that to a MAC and a PC, but I'm not holding my breath.

I think Macromedia is more draconian, though (besides being ultra-expensive). For example, due to the MACS 256 color palette being different than the PC's 256 color palette, one needs BOTH PC and MAC to create cross-platform Director projects. And of course they make you buy BOTH.

Anyway, as Joe predicted, PC's will come out with similiar horsepower soon, according to the L.A. Times.

Final Cut Pro is the primary reason why I would want a MAC. My boss likes MACS and the IDEA of editing on a FCP, but budgetary concerns have put that on hold. Premiere works just fine, and I believe 90 percent of the problems people have with it originate with the hardware card drivers, not with the program itself.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-24-2003, 10:12 PM:

David, I think of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates would have teamed together years ago instead of fighting each other and stealing each other's ideas, the G5 might now be obsolete to bigger and better things.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-25-2003, 06:15 PM:

Actually, back in the early to mid 1980's Bill Gates actually tried to team up with Apple. At the time, Microsoft was getting its butt kicked by IBM, Lotus and others in the business software arena. Microsoft's #1 customer base was Mac users. Microsoft desperately wanted the Mac market to grow.

Bill Gates visited with John Sculley and Mac OS designer, Jean Louis Gaseé and pitched the idea of cloning Mac computers. Gates lined up support from the top 25 computer hardware companies in the world -everyone from Compaq to Wang. Note, this is not long after Steve Jobs was ousted from Apple.

Sculley and Gaseé laughed at Gates' idea, smugly stating that Apple would be the only computer hardware company left standing by 1990. Bill Gates has at least given them a shot at the idea.

So, after Apple declined, Gates decided "if they're not going to do it, then I will" and developed Windows. Now he is the world's richest man.

In the Wired Magazine article on this subject, both Sculley and Gaseé admit they made a very terrible mistake in declining Bill Gates' offer. In recent years, Jean Louis Gaseé developed BeOS, which was a "next generation" MacOS candidate, but has also been ported out to Intel CPU operation.