This is topic "Boss's" ???? in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-27-2003, 11:17 AM:
 
OK, where's Steve and the other grammer masters? I noticed our electronic marquee said "My Boss's Daughter" and when I was about to tell the managers that it was wrong, I noticed that it was spelled the same way on the poster. What gives? Do you think this is something that slipped by, or was done on purpose, or am I totally wrong on it being wrong?
 
Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 08-27-2003, 11:42 AM:
 
Mark, I don't think you are wrong. That is grammatically atrocious. I would have to assume that someone at the studio knows that it is wrong, but if they had done it properly(My Boss' Daughter). than many people would think that the movie was called My Boss Daughter. If they are intentionally misusing the apostrophe s, then I think it is a sad but telling concession to the lowest common denominator.
 
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 08-27-2003, 11:43 AM:
 
Looks like it depends on the writer's choice of style and usage. See this link:
http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/possessives.htm
 
Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 08-27-2003, 11:58 AM:
 
The stylistic rule I learned in school was to form the possessive by adding an apostrophe plus the letter "s".

But words ending in "s" need only the apostrophe. However, there's the option of adding an apostrophe plus "s."

The apostrophe indicates missing letters. "John's book" was
originally written "John his book", so the apostrophe replaces letters "h" and "i."

"Boss" is awkward because of the double "s." In speech, we'd say "Boss-iz," and spelling it boss' seems to omit a pronounced syllable. In preparing a speech to be read, as on a tele-prompter, the apostrophe plus "s" might be preferred by the reader.

Incidentally, "boss" would be capitalized as the first word of a sentence, or as part of a name (Boss Tweed) or as a title in direct address (Right away, Boss!) but not in "My boss' daughter gives me a pain."
 
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-27-2003, 12:00 PM:
 
Paul is right. That is becoming more and more accepted.
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-27-2003, 01:54 PM:
 
FWIW, I saw an image of a poster on moviegoods.com that did indeed show it as "My Boss' Daughter." Maybe that was an early version or a teaser?

I agree that "Boss's" may not be perfect but from a marketing standpoint, it's probably more desirable.
 
Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 08-27-2003, 03:05 PM:
 
Thanks for the link, Paul. When I was taught grammar in school, I was told to NEVER use an apostrophe s after an s for possessive purposes. However, I would certainly trust the Strunk manual more than my grade school teachers.
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-27-2003, 03:20 PM:
 
Grammatical atrocity is common in written and conversational forms of American speech. Many got their panties in a twist when Price Charles raised objections of how we were murdering the "King's English."

Here's the truth, America. Price Charles was right. Many of you are idiots. In true American form, we prefer to have our asses kissed rather than be told the truth.

"My Boss's Daughter" is yet another accepted example of wrongly used English. If I am going to write the possessive of "boss" I always write "boss'". I have to go round and round with signage customers when they want to put wrongly worded grammar on a lighted pylon sign. They reply, "but that just doesn't look right." I try to tell them the use is correct, but they want the wrong version instead. That has to be the motive for writing "boss's" in that movie title. They did it for looks.

I'm sure English teachers must be pulling out their hair when they take marks off a student's paper for splitting infinitives, writing run-on sentences and ending sentences in prepositions. The kids just come back with magazine articles and hardcover books by well-known writers that make all those mistakes. I personally did that in a couple of my junior high English courses. Then the teacher responds, "those writers are doing that for effect and you need to know the rules before you break them."

On occasion, some movies give me a good chuckle when it comes to the techical properties of English grammar. I like the scene in "Fight Club" where the airport baggage claim worker says, "in the event of a dildo we can never imply ownership of the dildo. We have to use the indefinite article, 'a didlo,' and never 'your dildo.'" The sad fact is most Americans have no clue of what "indefinite article" means.
 
Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 08-27-2003, 03:35 PM:
 
How about the horrific use of the word myriad? Editors of newspapers never seem to catch this little gem when it is misused, and writers use it to sound smarter than they actualy are.

It is often used like this "There were a myriad of movies at the megaplex today." When the appropriate use is this... "there were myriad movies at the megaplex today."

Let's face it, we are getting dumbed down at a frightingly speedy pace.

Dave
 
Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 08-27-2003, 09:29 PM:
 
"A Manual for Writers of Term Papers, Theses, and Dissertations : fourth edition". Kate L. Terabian. ©1973 ISBN 0-226-81621-4.
POSSESSIVES
3:7 Form the possessive case of a proper name in the singular by adding an apostrophe and s:
But see the exceptions noted below (3:8 and 9):
3:8 The possessive case of the names Jesus and Moses, and of Greek (or hellenized) names of more than one syllable ending in es, is formed by adding an apostrophe alone:
3:9 For some common nouns as well, a regard for euphony sets aside the rule for forming the possessive by adding an apostrophe and s, and instead adds only an apostrophe:
3:10 Form the possessive case of a plural proper name (the Bradleys, the Costellos, etc.) by adding an apostrophe to the accepted form of the plural of the name.
"The Macmillan Handbook of English : sixth edition". John M. Kierzek, Walker Gibson, revised by Robert F. Willson Jr. ©1977 ISBN 0-02-363040-X.
15. THE APOSTROPHE
15a. An apostrophe and -s are used to form the possessive of a noun, singular or plural, that does not end in -s.
15b. The apostrophe alone is used to form the possessive of a plural noun ending in -s.
15c. The apostrophe with -s is used to form the possessive of singular nouns ending in -s, if the resultant form is not unpleasant or difficult to pronounce.
EXAMPLES
James's hat, Keats's poems, Jones's office; but: for goodness' sake, for conscience' sake, Demosthenes' orations.
 
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 08-27-2003, 09:39 PM:
 
Holy Toledo Jeff, that's way too many rules to remember.

I'd rather just write as I feel, and let 'em bitch! [evil]

>>> Phil
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-27-2003, 09:57 PM:
 
quote:
Holy Toledo Jeff, that's way too many rules to remember.
Jeffry's from Cleveland Ohio, not Toledo. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 08-28-2003, 01:13 AM:
 
quote:
I'd rather just write as I feel, and let 'em bitch!
There's a Shakesperean sentiment for you!
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-28-2003, 06:27 AM:
 
The form of apostrophe abuse I find that people whose English is otherwise perfect tend to go in for is getting the possessive form of a collective noun (which is singular) wrong, e.g.

The Driller Killer is not a childrens' film (wrong)
Snow White is a children's film (right)

Apostrophe Protection Society...
 
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-28-2003, 09:57 AM:
 
Wow! The apostrophe protection society??? But I think they're wrong too when they say "Jones's bakery". It should be "Jones' bakery." Their example of "Joneses' bakery" is correct however. Like Joe, I was always taught to NEVER use an 's after a word that ends with s when showing possession. The "words that sound like they end in s" rule is new to me, though. I guess I was sick that day.

I don't get the "it doesn't look right" argument. There's a lot of words that don't look right. Welcome to the English Language! To me, "boss's" looks like "bosseses." Oh, well. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 08-28-2003, 10:21 AM:
 
The problem is that in different grades in school, I was taught different rules concerning the apostophe at the ends of words or names ending in "s". The fact that different teachers and different textbooks used different rules leads me to believe that there are disagreements among "professionals" concerning correct usage in these cases.

Another issue here is that "My Boss's Daughter" is the official movie title, whether it uses "'s" correctly or not. Putting "My Boss' Daughter" on your marquee is like putting "Boys in the Hood" on your marquee for "Boyz N the Hood". "My Boss's Daughter" and "Boyz N the Hood" are the correct spellings of those movie titles, whether they reflect correct English or not.

If I write a book or make a movie called "Trie Knot To Ever Split Infinitive's" then that becomes the correct spelling of the book or movie title, whether it uses correct English or not. "Froot Loops" is the correct way to spell a certain brand of cereal, although "Froot" is not the correct way to spell "Fruit".
 
Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 08-28-2003, 11:17 AM:
 
quote:
To me, "boss's" looks like "bosseses."
Boss's -- "bosses"
Bosses -- "bosses"
Bosses' -- "bosses"
Bosses's -- "bosseses"
 
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-28-2003, 02:49 PM:
 
quote:
Boss's -- "bosses"
Um, no... If either boss' or boss's is acceptable, then that means boss' is pronounced bosses. Then what? The "s" at the end of boss's is silent? And optional?
 
Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 08-28-2003, 03:11 PM:
 
From Harbrace College Handbook Ninth edition: 1984 printing

quote:

(1) For singular nouns and indefinite pronouns, add the apostrophe and s.

Laura's idea
anyone's guess
a week's work

Option: If a singular noun ends in s, add the apostrophe and s or only the apostrophe.

Keats's poetry or Keats' poetry
a waitress's tips or a waitress' tips

When a singular word ends in s, many writers use the apostrophe and s to reflect pronunciation, but they prefer to use only the apostrophe when the word following begins with an s or z sound.

Chris's enthusiam but Chris' zeal
the hostess's idea but for the hostess' sake
(This is a usage rule I'd never seen).

So from the way it's worded in that manual, the rule is to always add "'s" and just using the apostrophe by itself at the end of a word ending in s is an option.

The usage guide at the end of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition favors using just the apostrophe at the end of words like waitress or boss (boss'), while always using "'s" at the end of names ending in s. (Chris's).

It just shows that there is no single authority on this issue, and that our language is a bit flexible. When I get home, I'll check the usage guide in the front of my reprint of the 1828 Webster's Dictionary to see what it says on this matter.
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-28-2003, 05:08 PM:
 
There's a grocery store chain out here called Albertson's.

They recently changed all their signs to say "Albertsons."

The official corporate reason was: "It looks better."

(I'd bet a hundred dollars that somewhere there is an Albertson's memo that says "It look's better.")

One of my own personal pet peeves is daycare centers that have misspelled words in their names, like "Kidz Korner Preskool." Great example of spelling for the little rugrats.

I got into a fight with a "professional" advertising guy a couple of years ago...I was on the committee for a tourism brochure for our area. There was a sentence in it that said: "The Matthew Quigley Rifle Match is considered to be the largest shoot of it's type in the world." I argued for half an hour that the apostrophe did not belong there. I finally had to fax the guy a dictionary entry and a style manual page to prove my point. The brochure got changed.
 
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 08-28-2003, 08:59 PM:
 
The same sort of observation and argument has gone on for years here over the name of Caesars Palace. They've heard all the grammatical explanations but they ain't changin'. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-28-2003, 11:31 PM:
 
How about a new one: "bossi", kind of like the plural of catcus, catci. A cataclismic explosion of bosses: bossinova!
 
Posted by Franklin Armstrong (Member # 1448) on 08-29-2003, 02:13 PM:
 
www.movies.yahoo.com
www.movies.go.com
www.fandango.com

Have it as " My Boss's Daughter "
 
Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 08-29-2003, 02:43 PM:
 
quote:
Um, no... If either boss' or boss's is acceptable, then that means boss' is pronounced bosses. Then what? The "s" at the end of boss's is silent? And optional?
If we are saying that both boss' and boss's are acceptable forms and have identical meanings then both should be pronounced the same way, \bossiz\.

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary : tenth edition. (c)1997. ISBN 0-87779-708-0.
A Handbook of Style: Punctuation:
' Apostrophe:
"1. Indicates the possessive case of nouns and indefinite pronouns. The possessive case of almost all singular nouns may be formed by adding 's. Traditionally, however, only the apostrophe is added when the s would not be pronounced in normal speech. [emphasis added] The possessive case of plural nouns ending in s or in an \s\ or \z\ sound is generally formed by adding an apostrophe only; the possessive of irregular plurals is formed by adding 's."

My interpretation of the bold sentence above and
quote:
3:9 For some common nouns as well, a regard for euphony sets aside the rule for forming the possessive by adding an apostrophe and s, and instead adds only an apostrophe:
and
quote:
15c. The apostrophe with -s is used to form the possessive of singular nouns ending in -s, if the resultant form is not unpleasant or difficult to pronounce.
is that the apostrophe only is used when the \iz\ or \ez\ sound is already present and adding another one would sound strange, like bosses's \bossiziz\. Bosses' \bossiz\ sounds better. So, for boss, I would add the 's because, ordinarily, I would pronounce boss' as \boss\ and boss's as \bossiz\.
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-29-2003, 03:03 PM:
 
quote:
If I write a book or make a movie called "Trie Knot To Ever Split Infinitive's
...then don't think about collaborating with William Shatner (to boldly go...)! [Wink]
 
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-29-2003, 04:35 PM:
 
There's an auto repair shop here whose signage for years has said "The Auto Pro's". They recently moved to a new location, with new signage reading "The Auto Pros". I wonder how hard the sign company had to fight with them over that one. [Wink]
 
Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 08-30-2003, 12:06 AM:
 
I noticed that the usage section on the apostrophe had been changed slightly from the 10th edition to the 11th (at least in format).
 




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