Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Paran Towers

This is topic Paran Towers in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-24-2003, 11:40 PM:

Deleted by Paul.

[ 09-26-2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 09-25-2003, 12:34 AM:

Looks like a Hawk to me.

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 09-25-2003, 12:56 AM:

Shouldn't have said anything Paul, now I'm going to have to report this thread to PETA, the ASPCA, and probably the gov't! I bet that was some endangered owl! [Wink]

Danny

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-25-2003, 01:10 AM:

I bet PETA would complain. How dare Paul have that tower erected right were a bird will fly one day! It's the electric chair for you Paul, if PETA had their way.

Oh, and if anyone from PETA reads this thread, I'd like to say the following:
I like dead animals. I wish more animals would die. They need to make way for us humans. I really like it when they get stuck in big oil spills. It's fun to see them struggle, knowing that there's no way they will survive. [Smile]

(PETA will probably ban the entire state of Colorado now).

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-25-2003, 01:47 AM:

The only thing that would have made those pics better is if you would have fired up the transmitter while "Trophy-Boy" was still on the tower and got pics of him frying his "wings" too... [Razz]

>>> Phil

[ 09-25-2003, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Phil Hill ]

Posted by Sean M. Grimes (Member # 445) on 09-25-2003, 03:42 AM:

I love the pics also, but please crop that damn poll out of the way! (sorry Phil!) [Big Grin]

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 09-25-2003, 07:24 AM:

Paul is that the feed line I see in the picture of the guy holding the dead bird? I've been trying to do some research on the Paran antenna since I read your earlier post. (your station may be the only one in US using a system of this design) Could you shoot a picture of the whole array and post it? I'm curious as to how far apart the four towers are and does the feed run vertical up through the center of the array where it connects at the top to the common point of wires going between the towers?

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 09-25-2003, 07:39 AM:

PETA? Doesn't that stand for "People Eating Tasty Animals".

Actually, I love animals. They taste great with mashed potatos.

/Mitchll

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-25-2003, 12:20 PM:

Jeff, those are guy wires. In the bottom picture, you can see the feed pipe (1/2-inch copper pipe) in the left 1/3 part of the picture. At the top of that picture, you can see one of the insulators that support it. Each of the four towers has a feed pipe. I think there is a phase difference between each of the feed pipes, but I am not sure. Very few people understand this system, and I am not one of them. [Frown]

I'll go up to the station today and see if i can get a picture of the whole array...the camera I used belongs to the Trophy Boy and it was much better than mine. If I can get a good picture of the system, I'll post it.

The reason the company used that Paran Array was because there was not enough real estate under the towers to properly lay the necessary ground radials of the correct wavelength for the frequency of 660khz. The Paran is extremely efficient. Only real drawback is it needs 4 towers to work.

I could be wrong, but I think we are one of the very few in the US that use this system, if not the only one.

The gentleman that engineered this set-up for us was George Frese. He is an eldery gentleman - so old I think he went to school with Marconi. [Big Grin]

He is one of the "sharpest" RF people in the industry. [beer]

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 09-25-2003, 02:37 PM:

What a shame....
I was immediatly reminded of Leonard Cohen....

Like a bird on a wire,
like a drunk at a midnight choir,
I have tried in my way to be free.
ZAP!

Just in case you don't know the soing.... I added the ZAP [Big Grin]

bet it smealt like KFC when it was fried..... bargain bucket and fries......

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-25-2003, 06:46 PM:

Jeff, here is a picture of how the tops of the towers are connected. This might be a wild offspring of what is known as an "Umbrella Loop Antenna System."

This is a drawing as the birds would see as they are flying over the towers.

The blue triangles are the towers.
The red blob in the blue triangle is the ½-inch copper feed pipe.
The red lines are the connections.
The green devices are insulators.
The middle of the cross hatch is supposed to be bonded together.
The insulators that appear to be “dead ended” are just that. The wire connected to them is about 20 feet long and connect to another insulator for support. Those supports are guyed to the anchors.

The towers are spaced about 100 feet apart, and are about 120 feet high. (that's just a guess...)

Anyone know how this thing works? Steve Guttag, ole' soothsayor...any ideas?

Ken..that also reminds me of a saying..."A bird in one hand is better than one flying overhead." Something like that, anyway. [Big Grin]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-25-2003, 07:28 PM:

What a nightmare....It does look archaic. Where does the spark-gap xmtr hook up? Marconi would be proud.

>>> Phil

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-25-2003, 07:45 PM:

Phil, I think the spark gap balls are in the ATU boxes at the base of the towers.

Actually, this system is a fairly new innovation. It is very effective when you don't have enough property to lay the ground radials in. It is a blessing for the wetland areas as well.

That system must have been a bear to tune up.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-25-2003, 08:10 PM:

Is there some reason the conductors must be bare?

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 09-25-2003, 08:15 PM:

Paul,
I think there is another setup like that close to my home. It is four short towers aranged close together like you describe. I will drive by there tomorrow and check it out if you are curious about seeing another.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-25-2003, 08:32 PM:

Paul, is this a directional system?

>>> Phil

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-25-2003, 08:43 PM:

Paran = PERImeter current ANtenna array.

Uses phase differentials between the wires to electrically simulate a single tower some multiple of the height of each individual tower. Especially useful in situations where building a taller antenna is not possible or practical.

The first one built in the USA is in Hilo, Hawii. It's right across from the airport.

[ 09-25-2003, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Randy Stankey ]

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-25-2003, 09:13 PM:

Phil, supposedly it is a non-directional system. But yet, as I look at a "funny map" it certainly does not look like it.

The day pattern at 10KW looks like this:

The night pattern at 1KW looks like this:

I never did a partial or a full proof on this system. The reason why I presumed it was non-directional is because I don't have to go check any nulls like I do on a directional array. We are not mandated to do so at this station operating at day or night power. We are not mandated to have an antenna monitor. Our only requirement is an RF line current meter at the common point.

Randy, I did a website search on this system and found nothing. Did you have better luck?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-25-2003, 09:36 PM:

Yep, I also heard a little bit about antenna arrays like this in various books. I've never seen/heard of an array like this at all.

Scientific American recently published an article on how antenna arrays can on cellular phone towers.

Got the information off a Google search:

This Article

Will post more if I find anything.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-25-2003, 09:49 PM:

Randy, that Paran Towers discussed in the link you provided sure sounds like what we have. Thanks for the link.

I found ours:

http://www.broadcast.net/pipermail/broadcast/2002-September/113415.html

Here's another....but it is not a link. I still can't make that "click here" thing work. [Mad]

In a message dated 9/16/02 10:58:00 PM, <snip> writes:

I have been told that KAPS 660 in WA also has a Paran. It was described to me as an anti-skywave antenna using a wire connected between the tops of 4 short towers with the feedline going up the leg of one tower.

Edit: It may just be one tower that has the main feed pipe. I now remember George Frese telling me to be careful if I have to work in the ATU box of the northwest tower. The feedpipes in the other three towers are probably feeding a set of coils in their respective ATU boxes for proper impedance matching and termination. To me, that makes sense. I am going to check that out tomorrow.

There are two. The Washington one, and the Hawaii one (the Big
Island).

I think the Commission's engineering staff ... or the proponents of Paran systems ... have got a lot of homework to do in order to integrate these into the normal scheme of things.

Both are presently classified as four tower DAs, although the patterns are omni.

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 09-26-2003, 07:11 AM:

Paul very interesting. Many thanks for going to the trouble of getting the pics. You have a rare antenna system there. Yes, it appears non-directional but the sea water improves the ground wave in certain directions. Sounds like the pipe on one tower is the feed, while the other three contain some sort of matching system. I wonder if the towers actually act like portions of coax? (they have a center conductor surrounded by the tower frame)

Are there burried radials used at all? Or does the entire system work without needing a ground reference? Jeff

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-26-2003, 12:36 PM:

Jeff, I'll see what I can find out with the rest of your questions.

Sam, if you can get a picture of the possible Paran Array close to your home, please do so. I would appreciate it.

As for now, I know of two Paran Arrays in the United States. Ours and the one Randy directed us to. The third one might be in Sam's area. They are rare, indeed.

As far as I know, we are not using any ground radials with our system. But I can't say for sure. While in the fence lines, I never saw any provisions for them like one would normally see being used with the Marconi such as KBRC. The ground radials are located every 3 degrees and 10AWG copper wire is used. Each radial is about 200 feet long.

George built a radial sniffer. It looks like a metal detector. It works as a receiver...that is if you start sniffing with it and find a radial an RF indication will be displayed on the meter. I had to use it once. It will find broken radials. We had some horses wandering around in our field some time ago and broke a few. They are not buried very deep. Almost on the surface. When I found them with George's contraption, I had to dig them up and repair them.

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 09-26-2003, 04:27 PM:

Sorry, I checked on them and they are not Parans. They are built as an directional array.
Rats.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-26-2003, 09:38 PM:

Jeff, there are ground radials in that system. 120 of them per tower. (3 degrees apart).

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 09-27-2003, 07:22 AM:

Thanks Paul, come to think of it, there has to be a ground system to reference the feed against. It sure is an intersting antenna [thumbsup]

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-27-2003, 01:01 PM:

Didn't check on the Coax thought of the pipes running up the towers. I'll ask George when he comes to do our splatter tests next month. He's the guy who engineered the project when it was installed.

Posted by Chris Markiewicz (Member # 1415) on 10-02-2003, 09:20 PM:

This should be the Paran array at Keahole, Kona, Hawaii. It's directly across the highway from the entrance to Kona Airport, about 100 yards uphill next to the main West Hawaii powerplant for Hawaii Electric Light Co. (HELCO, and aptly named!). I did not see a registration plate anywhere, just signs warning of high voltage.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-02-2003, 09:40 PM:

Chris, it probably does not meet height requirements or flight path issues to have the towers registered.

Towers that are taller than 200 feet and towers within about four miles of airports (that may be shorter than 200 feet and in the glide slope of take offs and landings) are subject to the registration requirements.