This is topic Defeating Copy Protected CDs in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-09-2003, 05:47 PM:
 
Much controversy has surrounded BMG's recent implementation of anti-copy protection on some music CD's; the protection prevents the user from copying the CD, or even "ripping" MP3 filez from the CD, thus rendering the consumer unable to destroy the recording industry. A student at Princeton discovered that simply holding the shift key down when inserting the CD in the computer prevents the copy protection from loading under Windows, thus enabling the consumer to resume its task of putting musicians and highly paid studio execs out of work, making them dig through trash in order to survive.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-09-2003, 06:08 PM:
 
Of course, this is assuming the music on the disc is worth copying in the first place.
 

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Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 10-09-2003, 06:49 PM:
 
Yes that's right, 50 million over ten years spent creating this great encryption software defeated by a college student with five free minutes on his hands.

Same thing happened with DVD encryption. It was thought that there were a series of over 400 three digit numbers in the right order to break the encryption, when it was found that you only needed just ONE of the three digit codes to break it. DeCSS decryption software spanned the internet within days rendering DVD encryption moot forever.

Maybe just maybe if they spent less time FIGHTING piracy, they would attract much less attention to it. You know it wasn't until the BIG FIVE record companies complained about Napster that it got as big and out of control as it did. Most ordinary people just don't go looking to steal and pirate things off of the internet etc.

But when you raise a stink about a small fry, you attract attention and natural human curiosity to it, making that small fry and super sized extra large heart attack major stroke salty greasy ass order of fries... with cheese.

Dave
 

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Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 10-09-2003, 07:19 PM:
 
Adema recently relased a sampler disc of stuff from their upcoming album, which I tried to rip to wave, MP3, and manually recording to wav within the computer. Neither of these worked, the resulting file stuttered really bad and the manual recording locked up after about a minute. In fact I cant even play it in that machine. This brings to mind another point. Does the cd automatically load a antipiracy program into memory that is always running as long as the CD is loaded? If so, you could go to task manager and close the offending program, or burn a copy of the cd missing the necessary program and autoload files? I am not trying to screw the recording industry, I am merely a hacker wannabe

Josh
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 10-09-2003, 07:42 PM:
 
I have an MP3 CD player I take on trips with me, and I make MP3 CDs so that I do not have a bunch of uncompressed CDs with me, and so that I do not have the chance of losing my originals. If I find that I have bought a CD that does not allow me "fair use" under copyright law, I will take it back, and demand my money back.

When a program is loaded into your computer by someone else, that changes how your computer works, that you do not want in your computer, isn't that called a virus? Maybe the management-morons at BMG should be thrown in jail.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-09-2003, 08:47 PM:
 
Josh, what program did you use to try recording analog into a wav file? I don't think that should have happened. If you desire to keep the program "secret" - just send me an email and let me know what program it was.

I have a few ideas....
 

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Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 10-09-2003, 09:10 PM:
 
You mean your VHS tape trick??

I was using CD player and Creative wavestudio. No secret there

JJ
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-09-2003, 09:29 PM:
 
I use "LP Recorder" from CBF Software in Australia and never have had a problem recording any CD to WAV format. If it will play in my computer, it will be recorded.

The old VHS trick is pretty lame and very well known...

I will get a hold of that demo disc that Josh is talking about and see if I can rip it.

(Which demo disc? The "Unstable" album or the "XCT1341-C" demo disc?)

(Disclaimer: The above information is for experimentation and medicinal purposes only)

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-09-2003, 09:30 PM:
 
I've always disabled "autoruncd" in Windows. It's a stupid and annoying "feature" which is also a pretty nasty security hole (since it executes whatever the CD tells it to upon inserting the disk).

For what it's worth, so-called "copy protected CDs" aren't, at least insofar as they don't follow the Red Book specification and aren't eligible for the "Compact Disc" trademark from Philips (which owns the trademark rights).

All of this stuff is lame, anyway. There's no effective way to prevent record piracy. Rather than continuously inventing lame and ineffective copy-protection schemes, he RIAA would be much better served by a) providing a quality product at a reasonable price and b) by providing some sort of online service whereby users can pay a reasonable price to legally download MP3 files of a wide variety of music.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-09-2003, 09:30 PM:
 
If someone is just trying to make a backup mp3 file (or a collection of mp3s on a disc to save on "baggage" in the car), a regular cd player can simply play the cd and record it into your computer in real time via the analog connections. While the audiophiles will scream about an unnecessary D/A and then another A/D conversion...it's an mp3!

I do firmly agree with Bruce, whenever the day comes that a cd I purchase cannot have a backup copy made, it will be returned.
 

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Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 10-09-2003, 09:57 PM:
 
As the kind of geek that habitually makes musical mixes from cd's already in my collection, I know that I'd be very put out if I found one of my discs didn't allow me to use any tracks from it.
Geez, not everyone that copies things from cd's is pirating music!
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-09-2003, 10:22 PM:
 
Josh, I was not referring to the VHS trick. There are better ways than that. Brad has the right idea.

Beside that, use SAW-32 for recording the wave file instead of that Horse's Assed Funky Creative Wave Studio. That is a POS from the word "Go".

Phil might have a good program....but it probably costs alot of money.

I also use "Music Match" to convert a WAV file to MP3 at just about every BiRate you elect to choose.

If you use SAW32 to record, use a rate 0f 44056 or 48000. It'll be one big file, but it will well be worth it. Then convert it to an MP3 at whatever kbs rate (up as high as 320 kbs) if you so desire. Music Match will go that high.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-09-2003, 10:51 PM:
 
Paul, if I remember right, it was not all that expensive... I think like 20 or 30 US$. I think the prices on their website were listed in Australian Dollars and seemed high if one didn't notice that.

I also use the Creative product for recording CDs. I have been for the last several years and I'm totally happy with it.

As Far as the conversion prgs, I use "MP3 Recorder". It is great. Will "convert" ANY format to ANY format.

Brad has a couple of my "special" CD's that have been ripped from "protected" CDs and other sources and all the tunes play fine on computer or commercial/consumer CD players. I always have my CDs in my SUV while driving.

BTW: ***IF*** the "protection" prevents me from playing and making a "back-up" copy for my own use of a CD that I have purchased, I will not necessarily return the CD, but sure the hell will support and pursue "other" means to make a copy.

It gets to the point of being ridiculous what BMI/ASCAP & the Music "Pushers" do to us "consumers"!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-09-2003, 10:55 PM:
 
My mind has not been changed on "Creative Labs CD recorder."
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-09-2003, 11:05 PM:
 
Yeah, so?

Not trying to convince anyone of anything... An opinion and personal experience, just like others....

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-09-2003, 11:08 PM:
 
What's the extraction software have to do with this?
Just don't let the CD autorun the protection software... hold shift.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 10-09-2003, 11:10 PM:
 

quote:

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Rather than continuously inventing lame and ineffective copy-protection schemes, he RIAA would be much better served by a) providing a quality product at a reasonable price and b) by providing some sort of online service whereby users can pay a reasonable price to legally download MP3 files of a wide variety of music.

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quote:

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Not trying to convince anyone of anything... An opinion and personal experience, just like others....

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Yup! I agree with you, Phil.

Just like Fords and Shoverolets...

Unfortunately, both of the above are junk. Rather have a Honda.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-09-2003, 11:31 PM:
 
I believe you just did.

Phil's email now being routed to /dev/null.
 

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Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 10-09-2003, 11:40 PM:
 
THere seems to be a movement towords the $10 CD. I find this to be a reasonable price. Some CD's are around 16-18 dollars, and I often pass on these.

Josh
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-10-2003, 12:19 AM:
 
10 bucks a pop? I still think that is over-priced for most of the crap that is on the market.

On the other side of the token, I would not balk too much at buying a 5 CD set of artists like Johnny Cash, Gordon Lightfoot, Marty Robbins and a few others that were GOOD music for a substantially higher price.

I ordered the CD that had the song that was played at Vern's Memorial Service. It was priced at 10 bucks plus shipping. Because of what the song was, the emotional value in conjunction of how, where, and when it was played, I would have paid 50 bucks if that was the price.

20 years ago, I came to the conclusion as to why all this "distorted guitar and other distorted musical instruments" crap came to pass. If the artist hit a sour note because he/she were not true musicians, nobody would know the difference because it was all distorted and out of tune in the first place.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-10-2003, 12:27 AM:
 
10 bux is too much. I agree with Jack!

CDs should NOT cost more that $6 retail.

$1 to the artist.
$1 to the music production/Label company.
$1 to the hardware production.
$1 for the promotions/ads.
$1 to the distributors.
$1 profit to the retailer.

(Or some variation and/or re-distribution of the costs...AND in most cases those costs a WAY overblown!)

That makes 6 bux to us low-life consumers!

Other than that, I support the "let 'er rip" philosophy!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 10-10-2003, 01:15 AM:
 
Speaking of prices, CD's are waaaay overpriced in most cases. I don't like spending more than 13 for one. If you go to some places like Tower or Virgin, they often want 18 or 19!!

Then we have DVD-A and SACD which they have unsuccessufully been trying to push on people for the past few years; that's right, admit that regular cds suck, but hey, "look what we have now, you need to re-buy all your music again!!"

This whole Ipod thing is beyond me. Why would anyone actually pay a dollar per song to download a crappy ass MP3!
Some people just have low standards.

Danny
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-10-2003, 02:32 AM:
 

quote:

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My mind has not been changed on "Creative Labs CD recorder."

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If you use that, are your copies THX-certified?
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 10-10-2003, 03:21 AM:
 
Roommate here uses Exact Audio Copy for ripping and LAME for encoding. Both are highly reviewed freeware that gives very satisfying results.

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/
http://lame.sourceforge.net/

Looks like that Princeton PhD student is going to face both civil and criminal (DMCA) lawsuits by SunnComm Technologies, the company that provided the anti-copying software being tested by BMG. Also note the forth paragraph from the end of the following CNET News article that mentions that SunnComm is planning alternate future delivery paths for their software, i.e. trojan horses that won't come from playing a protected CD.

Student faces suit over key to CD locks

By John Borland
Staff Writer, CNET News.com

SunnComm Technologies, a developer of CD antipiracy technology, said Thursday that it will likely sue a Princeton student who early this week showed how to evade the company's copy protection by pushing a computer's Shift key.

Princeton Ph.D. student John "Alex" Halderman published a paper on his Web site on Monday that gave detailed instructions on how to disarm the SunnComm technology, which aims to block unauthorized CD copying and MP3 ripping. The technology is included on an album by Anthony Hamilton that was recently distributed by BMG Music.

On Thursday, SunnComm CEO Peter Jacobs said the company plans legal action and is considering both criminal and civil suits. He said it may charge the student with maligning the company's reputation and, possibly, with violating copyright law that bans the distribution of tools for breaking through digital piracy safeguards.

"We feel we were the victim of an unannounced agenda and that the company has been wronged," Jacobs said. "I think the agenda is: 'Digital property should belong to everyone on the Internet.' I'm not sure that works in the marketplace."

The cases are already being examined by some intellectual-property lawyers for their potential to test the extremes of a controversial copyright law that block the distribution of information or software that breaks or "circumvents" copy-protection technologies.

Several civil and criminal cases based on the Digital Millennium Copyright Act have been filed against people who distributed information or software aimed at breaking through antipiracy locks. In one, Web publisher Eric Corley was banned by a federal judge from publishing software code that helped in the process of copying DVDs.

In a criminal case, Russian company ElcomSoft was cleared of charges that it had distributed software that willfully broke through Adobe Systems' e-book copy protection.

Both of those cases dealt with software or software code, however. The issue in Halderman's case is somewhat different.

In his paper, published on the Princeton Web site on Monday, the student explained that the SunnComm technique relies on installing antipiracy software directly from the protected CD itself. However, this can be prevented by stopping Microsoft Windows' "auto-run" feature. That can be done simply by pushing the Shift key as the CD loads.

If the CD does load and installs the software, Halderman identified the driver file that can be disabled using standard Windows tools. Free-speech activists said the nature of Halderman's instructions--which appeared in an academic paper, used only functions built into every Windows computer, and were not distributed for profit--meant they would not fall under DMCA scrutiny.

"This is completely outrageous," said Fred von Lohmann, an attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a group that has previously represented computer academics concerned that copyright law would impair their ability to publish. "This is not black hat (hackers') exploits he's revealing. This is Windows 101...It is relatively hard to imagine any better example of how the DMCA has been misused since it was passed five years ago."

Jacobs said SunnComm's attorneys would refer the case to local federal authorities, who could make the decision on how to proceed on the DMCA issue. He said the company was also exploring a civil suit based on damage to the company's reputation, since Halderman concluded that the technology was ineffective without knowing about future enhancements.

Future versions of the SunnComm software would include ways that the copy-protecting files would change their name on different computers, making them harder to find, Jacobs said. Moreover, the company will distribute the technology along with third-party software, so that it doesn't always come off a protected CD, he added.

The damage to SunnComm's reputation, while not necessarily permanent, was quickly seen in a drop in its market value, totaling close to $10 million over several days, Jacobs said. No final decisions about legal action have been made, he added.

Halderman said he's not overly worried about the legal threat. The EFF represented his advisor, Princeton professor Edward Felten, in a lawsuit dealing with academic freedom to publish computer security information, and Princeton University supported Felten in that case.

"I expect I will be well-represented in the case of a lawsuit," Halderman said. "If pressing the Shift key is a violation of the DMCA, then the law needs to be changed."

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[ 10-10-2003, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Paul Mayer ]
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-10-2003, 08:34 AM:
 
If anyone is interested in the actual "shift-key" story and how this protection scheme (purportedly) can be defeated...
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~jhalderm/cd3/
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-10-2003, 10:02 AM:
 
Boo hoo! I feel so sorry for SunnComm having their smoke and mirror protection scheme 'revealed'. I'm sure glad I don't have the cash to spend on CD's... I could have saw this and opened my big mouth and suggested people use their shift keys.
 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 10-10-2003, 01:40 PM:
 
And you could've posted it right here on Film-Tech and made us all FAMOUS!

I've read through much of this guy's paper. It sounds like the people at SunnComm need to hire someone who knows something about computers.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-10-2003, 03:21 PM:
 
Seems to me that taking the audio output of a good quality CD player and stuffing it into the line input of a good quality sound card and recording it to the hard drive through a professional grade sound recording program will yield an excellent recording. Am I wrong?

Lot of the older CD's were reproduced from Analog sources anyway. So what's the difference? Chances are, the average human ear could not tell the difference if any CD was recorded to a hard drive and played back via analog means. All this hype about MP3 files is crap! I can hear the difference between an MP3 and a WAV file.

True...many of those who take care of their ears and stay out of dangerous sound enviroments usually have excellent hearing and could probably tell the difference.

Many of the younger people have poor hearing because of the 3-mega-watt Distortion Generator bolted in their car. That distortion generator's SPL seems to be powerful enough to shake a freeway overpass.

Those people who run their distortion generators at that output level probably could not distinguish the difference between the tone quality of a French Horn and a flat fart.

A hearing test I have had came out much better than the average person you find in the age bracket of late teens to mid 20's. I am 63.

By the way...how come you can't see the actual wav file (if that is what it is) when the CD is brought up in Windows Explorer?

It must be one hellva hidden file......How do I view it if it is possible to view?
 

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Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 10-10-2003, 03:36 PM:
 
I feel that one of the main problems with the music industry that has led to many of its problems is the lack of "singles".

Back in the 1980s when I started buying my own music, you could buy 3 45 RPM singles for $5 in most places. That's 1.66 plus tax per song. Before I had the money to buy many albums, I could go out and buy singles and get all the songs I liked that were being played on the radio at any time. Back then, I usually did not buy an album unless it had 3 songs I wanted or had a version of a song that was different than the single version and I just "had to have it".

When vinyl 7" singles were phased out, cassette singles replaced them. I never bought cassette singles because the quality was so poor. There were some CD singles made (and still are), but I find that most songs I wanted didn't have CD singles. Many stores now don't even carry CD singles.

Now let's go back to the 1980s... Suppose there had not been "singles" back then when I was a poor high school student or college student. I wouldn't have been able to afford many albums and I would have had to tape music off the radio like I had to do before 1984 or borrow records from friends and tape them. The single allowed people who wanted one song to buy it cheaply. There is no such concept now. If you want one song, you have to get the album, unless the song you want is one of the rare ones you can get a single for, if you can find a store that sells it.

I have 504 7" 45s, nearly all of which I bought from March 31, 1984 until March 1989. That's 100 songs I bought per year, at under $200 a year, not counting albums I bought. For $200 a year back then, I could have only bought 23 albums a year since albums were $7.99 or $8.99 each. There were many albums that only had one or two songs that were popular, so I wouldn't have been able to get nearly the number of songs for the money. That's the problem we have now, compounded by the high prices of CDs.

I still buy music I like on CD and now have nearly 2500 CDs. I don't care for most of the newer music out there, so for me, it's not the cost, it's the quality. The introduction of "broken CDs", one of which will not play on my main home stereo setup (although I had no trouble making a copy that would play fine on it), will likely make me avoid new releases to an even greater degree.
 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 10-10-2003, 03:59 PM:
 
The audio on an audio CD is not a .wav file. Audio discs are structured different from data discs and "enhanced" or multiformat discs.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-10-2003, 05:27 PM:
 
Correct. Apps like EZ CD Creator or Sound Forge will take a music CD and interpret a WAV file from the original LPCM source. There is essentially no quality loss in this since you are not compressing the data in any way.

For pay per download schemes, I will not pay $1 per tune to download a low quality 128kb/s MP3 or AAC file. Sorry, no way. It is equivalent to radio quality or the quality I get from music only channels off my satellite dish. If they offered $1 per tune for downloading an uncompressed LPCM based WAV file, then I might consider it.

quote:

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These processes (not totally unlike those in our industry) all have a "value", which must be reflected... along with the cost of shoplifting (read: 'downloading') in the final retail price.

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quote:

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I still buy music I like on CD and now have nearly 2500 CDs.

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WOW! You must be a criminal though. Just because.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-10-2003, 09:33 PM:
 
I have had over 10,000 CDs. I originally bought just one and ripped the tunes that I like and then would exchange it for another one to rip.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 10-10-2003, 10:41 PM:
 
Haha, where are you shopping Phil? None of the major chains, Tower, Virgin, etc, will let you return or exchange something if it sucks. That's why I hate them.

I hate Tower Records so very deeply. Just the other day I was there and saw a CD of Queen rarities and B-sides for $10. I'd never heard of some of the songs, so i bought it. It is the worst thing I've heard in my life. Imagine a bad bootleg turned into a crappy MP3 and you get the picture of what this sounds like. So now I'm out $10 and have something unlistenable. They could at least give you the option to open and listen to any title in store before purchase. That is probably one reason record sales are down.

People need to know what they're getting before they buy. Would you go shopping at a major department store if they didn't let you try on or return clothing? Of course not!

So yes, from now on before any purchases, I will definately be downloading a few songs to make sure I like the album first.

Danny
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-10-2003, 11:16 PM:
 
Phil, remember the guidelines about member pics. They have to be actual pictures of you. Members get their pics deleted for submitting pics that don't show enough of their face. What you have there is an avatar. Be careful, or Brad'll getcha!

(My guess is that this has something to do with the chat room that absolutely no one will understand the reference to).
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-11-2003, 01:03 AM:
 
Joe, you can thank the Grand-Poo-BAH for that change!

What a jerk...him, not me!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-11-2003, 07:21 AM:
 
Danny -- Virgin Records (at least my local store) has kiosks which will let you listen to short samples of pretty much every recording in the store. Unfortunately, they aren't really useful for judging sound quality, since they use some horrible compression scheme. But at least it's better than what most record stores (don't) offer.

I can understand why record stores won't take returns once the product is open unless it is defective. Otherwise they would surely take a huge loss on product would could only then be sold as "used" at less than half of the original retal price.
 

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Posted by Raphael Jacquot (Member # 1936) on 10-11-2003, 08:01 AM:
 
Those "protections" are nothing but snake oil.
the first thing, is that in order for you to be able to play cds in a player, you need to be able to read the table of content. these supposedly protected cds are built so that there are several sessions burned on them, with the first session ok (otherwise, a normal player doesn't work).
The one thing that has those so-called "protection" sort-of work is that most cd players for computers are using extremely buggy firmware.
Now, take a *real* cd player (my plextor burner is a good example), and all those "protection" fall to the floor, not protecting anything.
These protections are not "effective" (as described in the DMCA and as common sense would have it), hence, there is no DMCA lawsuit to be held. -- end of story --

<rant>
now, the DMCA has to be the worst fake law yet to have been enacted in the US. (and this is not counting all the stuff on dumblaws.com)
</rant>

Bobby
That's assuming those "artists" have any talent to begin with (milli vanilly anyone)

Chris
Too bad we can't vote on posts, (+5 insightful)

Dan
And those "sucky" cd are what ? 75/80% of the available material ? (sounds just like movies if you ask me, 80% are not worth the stock they are printed on)
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-11-2003, 11:20 AM:
 

quote:

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That's assuming those "artists" have any talent to begin with (milli vanilly anyone

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