This is topic Staten Island ferry accident. in forum Film-Yak at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-15-2003, 04:49 PM:
 
As reported by the BBC.

BBC report

Sounds serious, fatalities reported. Not many details available yet.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-15-2003, 04:58 PM:
 
This tragedy gives me a chill. The Staten Island Ferry was one of the legs of my commute for the first three years I was in art school.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-15-2003, 05:09 PM:
 
I've joined the rush to get onto that ferry several times. With something as mundane as crossing a small strip of generally fairly calm water you don't thnk of it as having any great danger. The last crossing I made was in pretty bad weather, high winds and driving rain, but even in those conditions, the ferry had no difficulty docking at the terminal. I wonder what went wrong.

Do these boats have V-S propulsion? If so they would normally be very controlable.

My sympathies to those involved.

Edit.

It sounds worse than at first thought. The BBC report has now been updated twice, and now claims at least ten dead.

The first paragraph now reads:

At least 10 people have died and 34 injured after a ferry operating across New York City harbour crashed as it came into dock at Staten Island during high winds.
 

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Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 10-15-2003, 05:20 PM:
 
So far the reports have said one dead many injuries but nothing confirmed. I will admit the winds in the City tonight and this afternoon have been whipping throught the street canyons. They are reported by the weather service as between 45 to 55 with gusts to 70MPH. At least they are warm.
 

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-15-2003, 05:57 PM:
 
Right now it has 10 people confirmed dead and 34 hurt.

http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/2556761/detail.html
 

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Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 10-16-2003, 08:59 AM:
 
CNN mentioned that the captain tried to commit suicide after the incident and also implied that he might have been asleep. Not good.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-16-2003, 03:34 PM:
 
Jeff, I read that, too. A picture of the wreck was all over the front page of the Seattle PI as well as the Seattle Times. It was a nasty accident. As I type, the death toll was placed at 10, with 60 injured. Picture by Mike Hvozda/AP



Photo by Stuart Ransom/AP Photo:



We in Washington State have the biggest state-run ferry system in the world. We have also had our share of dock collisions.

On Sept. 8, 1999, the ferry Elwha hit the Orcas Island dock, because of a software malfunction in its propulsion system, and caused $2.5 million in damage.

On June 12, 1998, the propulsion controls failed on the Sealth, causing that vessel to ram into Seattle's Colman Dock, slightly injuring seven passengers. Damage to the dock was estimated at more than $2 million.

May 23, 1995 -- Nisqually crashes into dock at Lopez Island, and several passengers complain of injuries.

Jan. 19, 1994 -- Elwha rams wingwall at Anacortes after engines fail.

June 28, 1990 -- Chelan slams Orcas Island dock after power loss.

Dec. 29, 1987 -- Kittitas rams Clinton dock as captain tries to land the vessel while keeping watch over a fight on the car deck.

Sept. 12, 1986 -- Cathlamet smashes into the south slip of the Clinton terminal.

Jan. 10, 1983 -- Issaquah hits Bremerton dock.

Nov. 16, 1982 -- Nisqually rams Kingston dock.

Aug. 3, 1982 -- Issaquah smashes into Southworth dock.

Oct. 1, 1980 -- Nisqually crashes into Mukilteo dock.

We have also had several suicide cases where someone barrels up the loading ramp onto ferry's car deck, down the car deck at a high rate of speed and off the other end into the "drink."

Working as a deck hand on the car deck can be very dangerous, indeed. Some deck hands will often wonder where the hell some of these people got their driver's license.

I embarrased one teen-ager one night while on board the MV Yakima. The teen-ager was following so closely I could not see his headlights of his car. When I stopped, he didn't have enough time to do the same. (By the way, my stop was very smooth and slow.)

Well, the teenager rear-ended my car. Nothing serious...no damage to any car whatsoever. I thought, "Oh Jeeze"..and got out of my car. The kid that hit me was already embarrased, sheepish and apologetic. I thought I would capitalize on this one.

I put my hands on my hips and yelled, "You know, this is the very first time I ever got rammed in the ass by a ferry on a ferry."

I then turned around and walked away. The kid was standing there with an helpless astonished grin on his face.
 

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Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 10-16-2003, 06:25 PM:
 
This was a horrible mess. Decapitations, severed limbs. Just terrible.

Something was very very wrong, as the boat was nowhere near the correct dock. The wind could not have blown the boat that far off course.

This one will haunt me for some time.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-16-2003, 06:31 PM:
 

quote:

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I put my hands on my hips and yelled, "You know, this is the very first time I ever got rammed in the ass by a ferry on a ferry."

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That is sooooo fucking funny! Damn I totally forgot to laugh. Bashing anyone or group is the pits! Find something else to complain about!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-16-2003, 11:04 PM:
 
You have heard Jack and myself comment on the Washington State Ferries from time to time.

You might find this kink interesting.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/your_wsf/our_fleet/index.cfm?fuseaction=classes

The Jumbo MkII Class has 4 each EMD 710V16 engines. The boats are 460 feet 2 inches in length. It will carry 218 vehicles.

The Jumbo Class has 4 each EMD 645V16 engines. The boats are 440 feet in length. It will carry 206 vehicles.

Super Class has 4 each EMD 567V16 engines. The boats are 382 feet 2 inches in length. It is capable of carrying 160 vehicles.

The Issaquah 130 Class has 2 each General Electric N7FDM-12 engines, Diesel Reduction gear drive. The boats are 328 feet in length. It is a 130-car ferry.

The Issaquah 100 Class are powered by the same engine model as the 130 class. It is likewise 328 feet long. It is a 100-car ferry.

The Evergreen State Class is a 310-footer, the same size ferry that rammed the dock in Staten. Ours can carry a maximum of 100 vehicles or a maximum of 30 commercial vehicles and 1000 passengers. Ours have a deck clearance of 13 feet 3 inches and has a beam of 73 feet. Ours drafts 15 feet 10 inches of water and weighs 2041 tons fully loaded and 1017 tons empty. Ours were at one time equipped with General Motors 278AV16 engines. What they have in them now, I don't know. I would presume (being an old navy man) that the ferry at Staten was very similar to our Evergreen State Class of boats. The Staten ferry was the same length, that being 310 feet.

The Steel-Electric Class are 256 feet long, can carry 75 vehicles, and are powered by Wartsilla-Vesa 8-cylinder engines. They are Diesel-Electric drive boats.

The Rhododendron Class can only carry 65 vehicles total. She was orginally powered by a direct-drive setup using Faibanks-Morris 8-cylinder Diesels. I have never been in the engine room, but I understood there were two engines. What is in there now, I don't know. But whatever it is, there are two engines. I think the boat was converted to Diesel Electric.


And then, there is the Hiyu. A little cork-popper. It is 162 feet long and can carry 40 vehicles. It has two engines, but I don't know what they are.

[ 10-17-2003, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-17-2003, 12:40 AM:
 
If there was any mercy perhaps some of the victims were asleep when they met their fate. Or to twist it in a different manner, perhaps being asleep sealed their fate.

Anyone with lots of Staten Island Ferry riding experience will tell you that you can be lulled off to sleep by the constant noise and vibration from the engines. Combine that with the cool breezes from Upper New York Bay and you can nod off.

I wound up falling asleep on the Staten Island Ferry all the time. Working my ass off into the wee hours of the morning finishing art school projects helped contribute to it. One can be especially prone to falling asleep and napping too long on the commute home. On numerous occaisions I have been startled awake by the ferry horn sounding --as it embarked back to Manhattan! Damn! That mistake will cost you an extra hour of your time, turning a 23 minute ferry ride into an hour and half long bite out of your schedule.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-17-2003, 01:26 AM:
 
Bobby, there is only one Diesel Engine I know of that will lull you to sleep. That is the General Electric N-7FDM-12. Seeings that the ferry that crashed the dock was a 310 footer, it would not surprise me to find out that is equipped with GE engines. Those engines were an excellent match for a 310-foot boat. Not underpowered, and not over-powered like our MK-II boats are.

The Staten Ferry Fleet is run and operated by the NYC DOT. They have 5 boats.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-17-2003, 01:19 PM:
 
The word this morning is the ferry was running at top speed when it crashed. As noted earlier, the pilot fled the scene, went home, slashed both his wrists and shot himself in the chest with some kind of powerful pellet gun...
 

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Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 10-17-2003, 06:22 PM:
 
Several times I've benn to Gavleston in my state. The ferries there aren't diesel electric just diesel either geared or direct drive. Each has two diesel engines,traditional straight row cylinder configuration & for power,two V type gas or diesel generators.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-17-2003, 09:02 PM:
 
Matthew, The Ferry I took from Houston to Dallas was Deisel Electric !!
Mark
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-17-2003, 10:35 PM:
 
I think there is more than meets the eye about the Stanten tragedy. I guess we will just have to wait and see what the investigation reveals.

That accident could have been much worse if the ferry was filled to capacity...as I understand is licensed for 6,000 passengers. There were 1,500 aboard when the accident happened.

[ 10-17-2003, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 10-18-2003, 12:16 AM:
 
Paul...

We had a class that had some kind of hotshot fly-by-wire software-controlled propulsion system (Siemens?)... seems I recall it had variable pitch props, too... though maybe I'm mixing systems. Weren't the 2 G.E. engines converted from locomotive service? It may have also been one of the first pilot-controlled systems, using some kind of magnetic or pneumatic clutching system on the shafts... refresh me where I'm off on detail here.

Anyway... this was the system that accounted for most of the dock collisions after the mid-'80s... in the process of idling down & putting the front shaft "in gear", something would go haywire in the software and nothing would happen, resulting in a leisurely coast right into the dock. I never heard why the engineers couldn't have taken over from downstairs... maybe there wasn't time, though that sounds curious.

I heard they replaced the computer-based controls with some kind of pneumatic system... something with more-direct relation between the wheelhouse controls and the equipment in the engine room.

Any of this sound right... or familiar? Thought there was a "Kitsap Class" at one time... ????

On your list of classes... there was a very small ship... somewhere in the Rhododendron class era... maybe the Hiyu or therebouts... don't think it was the Rhododendron... but maybe it was. It had ONE engine with shafts coming out both ends. It was controlled literally AT the engine, with a control wheel that went from "stop" at the center position, to one direction or the other, based on which way the engineer turned the wheel from center. The ship's heating furnace was used to heat the engine to operating temperature in the morning. It used an air starter that would push the engine one way or the other for directional control. the engine's air intake was at the car deck level, so it made some pretty interesting sounds when it was running. You could also look down the hatch at the operator's back while he was on-station... which was how you got "invited down", if you could get his attention..
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-18-2003, 04:30 AM:
 
Paul, the Ferry web site lists three classes of boats that operate the service. The news reports said that the vellel involved was due to be retired next year, so I would guess that it is from the oldest class, introduced in 1965, in which case the capacity would be rather less, something oiver three thousand, I think it said. The newest boats now in servive were stated to have a capacity for 6000. Still, as you say, it could have been much worse, if it had happened a couple of hours later.

The weather may well have been a contributory factor, but it was no worse than these boats must have operated in many times during their life, it must surely have been combined with either mechanical failure or human error to produce this result.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-18-2003, 01:32 PM:
 
Jack, the Siemens Propulsion Control systems were scrapped. Too unreliable. Too many dock crashes. I think the pneumatic system replaced it. I was in the engine rooms of the Cathlemet several years ago...very interesting setup. Incidently, the GE engines used in the Issaquah class ferries were the marine version of the GE locomotive engine. When the Stealth busted a crankshaft in one of her engines, WSF had one heck of a time finding a crankshaft for it. There were plenty available, but they were locomotive crankshafts and were not certified for marine use. Other than that, they were the same. I think the Kitsap busted one, also some time ago.

I have been told that when the Seimans Propulsion Systems failed on the Issaquah class boats, more often that not the glitch was severe enough where the engineering gang could not over-ride it.

The Kitsap is in the Issaquah 130 class. It was powered by two GE N-7 FDM-12 engines on an 11:1 gear reduction drive. Yes, variable pitch propellers are still being used as far as I know on that class of boats but I can't be certain of that.

The small boat you were thinking of was the Olympic. It had a huge Fairmanks-Morris 8 cylinder engine. That boat was retired and as far as I know it has been sold. I have a ton of video footage of the engineman running his engine.

It was a reversing Diesel engine. Shut the down, wait for the order, change the engine timing and give 'er a shot of air and she would start up in a helluva rumble in the opposite direction. (As the engineers told me, "Most of the time" it would start.....)

I wonder what kind of propulsion control systems the Stanten Ferries have.

Stephan, the boat that was involved in the Stanten accident was built in 1980 I think. And yes....I wonder about a mechanical failure, too. Maybe the captain looked like he was scrunched over the controls because he was saying to himself,

"Oh, My God...I have no control over thsi thing!!!" It is worth a thought.

[ 10-18-2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-18-2003, 04:42 PM:
 
Paul, do you know the name of the vessel involved itn the accident? I have looked, but have not been able to find it anywhere.

The ferry web site lists the following details of their craft:

quote:

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Kennedy Class Boats:
There are three sister ships, the John F. Kennedy, the American Legion, and the Governor Herbert H. Lehman. This class began service in 1965. Each boat carries 3,500 passengers and up to 40 vehicles, with a crew of 13 plus one female attendant. The boats are 297 feet long, 69 feet, 10 inches wide, with a draft of 13 feet, 6 inches, weight of 2,109 gross tons, service speed of 16 knots, and 6,500 horsepower.
The American Legion will be retired in the spring of 2004 when the new Guy V. Molinari comes into service. The Kennedy and the Lehman will be retired when two additional new boats come into service later in 2004 and in 2005.

Barberi Class Boats:
There are two sister ships, the Andrew J. Barberi and the Samuel I. Newhouse. The Barberi entered service in 1981 and the Newhouse in 1982. Each boat carries 6,000 passengers, with a crew of 15 plus one female attendant. The boats are 310 feet long, 69 feet, 10 inches wide, with a draft of 13 feet, 6 inches, weight of 3,335 gross tons, service speed of 16 knots, and 7,000 horsepower.

Austen Class Boats:
There are two sister ships, the Alice Austen and the John A. Noble. This class began service in 1986. Each boat carries 1,280 passengers, with a crew of 9 plus one female attendant. The boats are 207 feet long, 40 feet wide, with a draft of 8 feet, 6 inches, weight of 499 gross tons, service speed of 16 knots, and 3,200 horsepower.

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..The boats are 310 feet long, 69 feet, 10 inches wide, with a draft of 13 feet, 6 inches, weight of 3,335 gross tons, service speed of 16 knots, and 7,000 horsepower.

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How fast does a Staten Island ferry travel? Even the captain can only guess. That is because there is "no speedometer at all, nothing that indicates speed on the vessels," a ferry captain testified last year. He estimated that the cruising speed was about 20 miles per hour — but he could not be sure.

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